Epoxy substitute?

[John Fitzgerald]

Does anyone use an alternative when a building instruction calls for epoxy, for example to glue the wing on, or mount a bellcrank platform or tail wheel?  Epoxy is so messy and stinky I despise working with it.
Thanks.

[PJ Rowland]

You could try Zap combined with carbon Veil.

Epoxy with gloves is easy to work with.

[Brett Buck]

Does anyone use an alternative when a building instruction calls for epoxy, for example to glue the wing on, or mount a bellcrank platform or tail wheel?  Epoxy is so messy and stinky I despise working with it.
Thanks.

  Having never read the instructions, this has not been a dilemma for me!  I don't use a lot of epoxy in scratch-building and I would probably use Hot Stuff for any of those cases.

     Brett

[Tim Wescott]

Epoxy is by far the easiest glue with which to achieve a strong joint.

But if you make joints that are nice and tight fitting when you dry fit them (you do dry fit them, yes?) then you rarely need it.

I use CA (sparingly, because I've developed a sensitivity to it), epoxy (sparingly, because I've learned my lesson from CA and still want to be able to use it when it's absolutely necessary), yellow carpenter's glue (a lot), and Ambroid.  They all have their places -- learn them, and you can certainly minimize your use of epoxy.

[Mike Griffin]

Like Tim I cannot use CA very much anymore because of the same reason as him.  When I visited with Tom Morris a couple of years ago we built a profile Cavalier together in his shop.  The entire plane was built with White Elmers Glue and the wing was glued in with it.  I asked Tom about it when we did it and he told me he had never had a failure using white glue to glue the wing in.  Since then, that is what i use and have never had a problem.  I do not like what CA does to my eyes, my nose and my skin.  Elmers is inert and has no side effects.  I have used the yellow Tight Bond but I find it dries a little quicker.  Elmer's white glue sets up in about 30 minutes to the point where you can handle the part. 

Mike

[John Fitzgerald]

Thanks. Has anyone ever used Titebond III waterproof yellow glue?  I have with other wood working projects where weight doesn't matter, but it might be a bit weighty for a plane.  Epoxy is not light though. 

[Steve Helmick]

Can't say about the Roman Numerals, but I've used lots of Titebond, SIGbond, etc.

Have you tried baking soda + CA?    Steve

[Lauri Malila]

 If you think that mixing & spreading of epoxy is messy, you can use "mixing nozzles" offered by some brands. Of course, it's more expensive and some glue is wasted in the single-use nozzle but at least it is less messy. And you can be sure of good mixing and mixing ratio. I like to use them when I assemble my 3-blade wood props, to most of other things, not.

 Lauri

[Paul Wood]

John,

I've used a product called Weldbond, which is a water based white glue.  But it sets up similar to epoxy.  Somewhat soft, not sandible.  But, I now use white/yellow glue exclusively.  For those areas that in the past would have been epoxied, I will coat the surfaces and let the glue dry.  Then glue the piece.  This keeps the glue from soaking in to the wood.  Try a test piece to destruction and I think you will be pleased with the holding power of these glues.

Paul

[john e. holliday]

To me it depends on what is being glued.   We learned a long time ago that laminating ply to balsa profile fuselage not to use white glue like Elmers or even the Tite Bound wood glue.   That is where Epoxy comes into play.  It will cure.  If you ever tear into a profile after gluing with Elmer's or Tite Bound you may find that the glue in the center has not dried.  Gorilla poly glue is good for laminates and even tho sometimes messy I find it better than Epoxy. 

[Joe Just]

Jim Carpenter of Salem,NH led me to use the Titebond "Black Label"  trim and molding glue.  Works great for doublers, gluing in wings and I even use it for fillets.  Ace Hardware carries it
Joe

[bob branch]

I use more and more thick CA in structural areas with heavy loading and am decreasing my use of epoxies. I have built boats with it for years and there is a lot to learn in using it well. Lots of additives and modifiers. It really can do more than any other type of glue. Some people have trouble with the smell, my wife says it smells like cat pee. Doesn't bother me, though the cat pee used to... no more cats now so not an issue. Of course the issues with epoxy allergy are very well documented in the aviation and marine industries. The most harmful part of it is direct contact, but sanding is just as bad. If you are going to come in contact with it wear gloves. If you are going to sand it, wear full coverage clothing and a respirator.... not a dust mask, a full respirator. It is a nasty nasty allergy. One note on CA's, they do not bond well to most plywoods we use because of the acidity of the wood. If I'm working with anything that does not require epoxy level strength though I will use thin or medium CA depending on the joint fit. Wings are entirely thin CA.

Waterproof white (and yellow, and brown) aliphatic glues are very strong. They are more water proof than epoxies and hold better than epoxies when immersed in water. I've been involved in extensive immersion testing with epoxies and we did some waterproof white glue tests just as a "poor sister" comparison. Turned out to not be quite the poor sister we expected.

bob branch

... please pass the microfibers...

Gorilla glue and the others of its type are very strong and waterproof but they have some not nice issues you need to be aware of. The expand tremendously on setting. If you are laminating parts you must weigh them down heavily. This has been quite an issue in the 3D RC community when we started using it to glue balsa sides on foam cores. Things slid around as they set. Also it will stain your fingers dark brown and you cannot wash it off, clean it off, or peel it off. It will be several weeks til the skin exfoliates. Lastly, while it is very water "proof" it is not water "tight". Water will run thru it like going thru a collander. A not nice surprise for some doing boat building or aircraft floats. But if you can secure it and account for the expansion its quite strong. It shapes easily when set by the way. You can cut it with a plane or sand it. I usually use a knife. If you were working with very tight precision joints I'm not sure you would like the result. Its expansion might open the joint.

[Will Hinton]

Wow, Bob, THANK YOU for your research report!  I'm serious.  I would have bet the farm that epoxy was totally okay as to water, but this tells me otherwise, so I will now change my approach on several things I use it for!
I'm curious to know if you have ever tested Titebond III for water resistance, or even water proof properties?  I'm now using it exclusively when I build acoustic guitars and really like the working and clamp-up time it has.  It is ugly where it squeezes out and requires a careful wipe up with a wet towel during assembly unless you like to sand in tight corners for hours on end.
Thanks again, Bob.
Will

[John Fitzgerald]

Jim Carpenter of Salem,NH led me to use the Titebond "Black Label"  trim and molding glue.  Works great for doublers, gluing in wings and I even use it for fillets.  Ace Hardware carries it
Joe

Thanks!  I picked up a bottle of the Titebond "black label" today and it seems to be really good stuff.

[bob branch]

Will

Titebond II was tested. I believe titebond III was not out yet. II was water tight and water proof. BTW, these were temperature cycle tests which is the most difficult test for water performance with glues. We did peal and strip and separation testing. Most epoxy is considered water proof and water tight. But we did experience differences in various epoxies. Those used in boat building gave better performance. But it became apparent that epoxy was not the gold standard for waterproof. In our tests titebond was! I should note we only added the titebond on a lark just for a what if.... And for peel test we used it like epoxy to attach fiberglass cloth. After 3 days of thermal cycling .... which is way beyond the normal waterproof cycling tests.... we could still not separate titebond joints without wood separation nor peel the cloth without separation. The epoxied cloth literally fell off the wood. Now before you worry, I have built many boats with epoxy and have applied epoxy to a lot of fabric and the boats have set in the water for years, been in horrid sea conditions, been bashed over rocks in rivers (canoes of course, not sailboats or powerboats) and never had a failure. I've built boats for 50 years and the other person involved in the testing has just retired as a professional boat builder. Today when a company is having trouble with a mold they will ship him the mold (even to the extent of part of a 76 foot very high end quality boat.... I will not mention the name) for him to fix the molds so the parts fit. Just so I don't ruin my reputation with my friends though, I never use the stuff building model airplanes.... to each his own.

Oh, there is one place it absolutely does not work and that is gluing in hinges. It does not attach to the plastic. My neighbor swore it would. I swore at him as I contemplated how to land my favorite 3D profile with one aileron hanging from the horn and one elevator half out. Made it with no collateral damage. My first parachute landing!  Don't use it on hinges.

bob

Anyway, one glue I would not worry about is titebond. You, ah, planning on playing an underwater concert? If so hope its acoustic and not electric instrument. 

bob

[Terrence Durrill]

Why make things difficult...........I have used Elmer's basic White Glue (not "School Glue") almost exclusively since 1956.......over 50 years and it has worked well for me.  Just make sure the joints are good and solid and use clamps where appropriate.  I am still flying some of the planes I built over 40 years ago (in the 1960's and 70's).  I do sometimes use epoxy on motor mounts, but it is not really necrssary.  I will say I build planes powered by engines from .020 through .36, nothing larger....no 40's, 46's, 51's, 60's, etc.      

[Kelly Wilson]

Give a look at System Three Epoxy, both the T-88 & T-88 gel. Both are much superior to hobby epoxies. Fumes don't seem to be a problem, but I do wear gloves when using. The T-88 gel is really a great product. I recommend a cheap scale or measuring cups to get the correct combinations. Also try their "trial kit" for $25 bucks. It is a great value and lots of free samples and info on how to use various epoxies and their best applications.

www.systemthree.com/

[bob branch]

Kelly

I agree 100%. System Three has been my preferred epoxies for year even though WEST is here in Michigan and I know the Gougeons. Nice folks but for my work system three has lots of advantages.

bob branch

[Will Hinton]

"You, ah, planning on playing an underwater concert? If so hope its acoustic and not electric instrument.  "

Bob,  Thanks much, I feel good about the step by step change to Titebond in my instrument building.  As to the underwater concerts, hmmmm, might be a good draw, but I'll leave it to my customers!   Maybe I can get one of my quality control guys to try it out!!!

Will