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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Warren Leadbeatter on May 24, 2007, 07:38:11 AM

Title: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Warren Leadbeatter on May 24, 2007, 07:38:11 AM
I dont know what it's like over there in the U.S. but here in Aus everyones gone green!  Save this, save that before we all melt or something... Now they all think they can make as much green house gases as they like so long as they plant a few trees to make up for it. (Carbon neutral or something they call it)... anyway I was looking through this old Popular Mechanics Encyclopedia that my father in law loaned me dated 1955 and I saw this! (see pic)  A mechanical starter for model airplane engines.  Did anyone every try this?  Now this is GREEN.

Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Paul Smith on May 24, 2007, 07:45:36 AM
My 23-year-old daughter noticed a couple of those units in my shop last week. 

She couldn't figure out what they were. 

When I explained, she still didn't entirely believe that cordless electric drills hadn't been around forever.

ps: Never started an engine with one, but did drill some mounting holes.
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: minnesotamodeler on May 24, 2007, 08:56:21 AM
We called 'em "hurdie-gurdies" as opposed to the ol' brace-and-bit. I have no idea why.  But yes, I drilled lots of holes with one too.  But that's all I ever did with it.  Seems like someone adapted one to wind the rubber bands in their such-powered model. 

--Ray
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Keith Spriggs on May 24, 2007, 09:00:53 AM
Many years ago a friend of mine had an engine starter that was spring wound. It worked very good especially at starting those old worn out McCoys. When I was at the AMA museum I saw a new one. With that information I was able to locate the original patent filed 2/15/49 Patent # 2,461,784. His was the only one that I ever saw and used. I always wondered why there were not more of them around. I understand that one of them recently brough 200 dollars on Ebay.

Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Keith Spriggs on May 24, 2007, 09:06:04 AM
We called 'em "hurdie-gurdies" as opposed to the ol' brace-and-bit. I have no idea why. 

--Ray

They also had larger ones that were called "breast drills" the idea was that you could push on it with your chest. There was a piece of metal on the end that roughly conformed to your chest.
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Warren Leadbeatter on May 24, 2007, 09:21:21 AM
I have a couple of those small "egg beater" drills myself that I still use for drilling, but starting a model plane engine with one would be difficult I think because they require 2 hands to work it.  Also those breast drills, my dad has one... Good for drilling big holes with a speed bore, because you can put you whole body into it.  And yes I have used them for winding up rubber powered free flight models, very handy with a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio when you have to put a 1000 or so turns on.  I think the brace and bit is different... isn't that the square shaped one?

Cheers
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Robert McHam on May 24, 2007, 09:38:10 AM
Another "green" atrter used some years ago both here and the U.S. by some clubs,was an inertia starter. 


Robert
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: SteveMoon on May 24, 2007, 12:46:47 PM
Al Gore invented it. Steve
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: L0U CRANE on May 24, 2007, 04:59:18 PM
To Robert McHam, reply #6:

There used to be 80:1 geared bench grinders. I think most had a slip dog for the handle - push handle onto shaft to engage so you could spin it up, slide handle out of contact and the wheel spun free and coasted down.

Many of these were converted to drive a flywheel and rubber lined cup (as on today's electric starters). The usual grinder had a clamp base like some small clamp-on bench vises. Clamped onto the field box, you could spin up the flywheel and cup, free it to coast, and bump the spinner into the rubber.

Most that I saw, and saw pix of, were very handy for speed models with 'unorthodox' timing, props and fuels...

Modified to add: I like this way better than using a wrench socket on the prop nut, or another "green" thing sometimes suggested: chuck a spindle fitted with a short piece of garden hose into the egg-beater type hand drill... Tried that once.

JUST once...
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: bob branch on May 24, 2007, 07:13:36 PM
Yup, used a chest drill to build my first boat when I was 13. Sunk the screws with a bit brace with a screwdriver with the handle cut off chucked. Used that for alot of boats till variable speed cordless with variable ratio gears came out. Cordless ones without the clutch were useless, you'd strip too many screws. Not a good thing to do in a wood boat.

Bob Branch
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Dick Byron on May 24, 2007, 07:24:11 PM
My green starter is my finger. Sometimes it's green, sometimes it's red. I give it to most drivers I see. LOL LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Keith Spriggs on May 24, 2007, 09:42:27 PM
My green starter is my finger. Sometimes it's green, sometimes it's red. I give it to most drivers I see. LOL LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

That was pretty funny. My wife ask me what I was laughing at. I tried to explain, but as the say "you just had to be there"
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bob Disharoon on May 25, 2007, 05:19:30 AM
Does anyone remember the" Yankee" drill/screwdriver tool?..also, the spinner in the above posted pic reminds me a lot of an older paint brush spinner..you chukked the handle in it,push/ pull the lever, and it would spin a 6" brush a mile a minute..now THAT might be a great starter.
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Paul Smith on May 25, 2007, 06:24:43 AM
We called 'em "hurdie-gurdies" as opposed to the ol' brace-and-bit. I have no idea why.  --Ray

I've never heard that term applied to drill either, but I can figure out why.

The hurdi-girdie was a musical instrustment used by buskers.  It had a similar hand crank on the side.
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bill Gruby on May 25, 2007, 07:50:55 AM
Hi All;

   I should have seen this one sooner, been busy with the 1000. Paul you nailed it down, that is exactly why it has that "Nickname". I have to agree with "Dick Byron" though, I have never done anything but hand starts.

                         "Billy G"   HIHI%%
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Warren Leadbeatter on May 25, 2007, 08:09:21 AM
Hi Billy

How's the 1000 coming along?   I had always been of the opinion that starters were for wussy R/C fliers, but my cantankerous 4 stroke that keeps wanting to run backwards made me consider using the electric starter which I ended up doing today.  I was shattered that the bloody thing defeated me.  It  was like trying to start a Cox baby bee without a spring starter again.  Arrghhh!  I'm still mad!  ''

Cheers
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: john e. holliday on May 25, 2007, 08:57:04 AM
Warren, hand starting only impresses the judges.  Don't be ashamed of using the electric finger.  I had one engine that just would not start by hand.  All I had to do was bump it with the electric finger and it was running.  I have also witnessed some big name flyers using them.  DOC Holliday
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: 50+AirYears on May 26, 2007, 08:30:20 PM
I've seen adds for the spring driven starter (Spin-it?) in some of my older mid-late 40s mags.  Always heard that the spring had a limited life.

I recall seeing Captain Reid Simpson using one of those spinning flywheel starters on a class A speed model in the model club building back at Chanute AFB back in 1965.  I think it took over an hour to spin down.

I have a couple CL engines that won't start with the electrics.  They eventually start and run by hand-flipping.  My impression is that the electric spinner holds them back when they fire off, and they die out as soon as the starter is removed.  Haven't had that kind of problem with any of the RC engines, that usually are started at partial throttle.
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bob Kruger on May 28, 2007, 07:08:38 PM
I dont know what it's like over there in the U.S. but here in Aus everyones gone green!  Save this, save that before we all melt or something... Now they all think they can make as much green house gases as they like so long as they plant a few trees to make up for it. (Carbon neutral or something they call it)... anyway I was looking through this old Popular Mechanics Encyclopedia that my father in law loaned me dated 1955 and I saw this! (see pic)  A mechanical starter for model airplane engines.  Did anyone every try this?  Now this is GREEN.



Warren;

I am not sure how well the clip you show would work with our modern high compression engines.  I don't think it gives much mechanical advantage.

The only non electric starter that I have seen other than a couple of fingers was a setup that used a flywheel system similar to the grinder/sharpener my grandfather had in his shop.  It had a hand crank on one end, a geared flywheel, and instead of a circular stone it had a rubber cup that engaged the old Veco type spinners from the 50s and 60s.  The person who had it was an old speed flyer from the 40s and 50s who had it mounted on a rather large tripod that had to be manhandled with some difficulty.  The drill was to get the flywheel (and nose cone cup) spinning once the engine was primed, battery hooked up, and it was ready to start.  The whole plane was lifted to the stationary starter.  He demonstrated it a couple of times.  It did work, although it left a significant marring on the spinner as the cup was turning when he engaged the spinner.  Whether this was optimum procedure or not I don't know, as this was over 30 years ago.

Was it environmentally green?  Yes.  Was it practicable, especially for stunt engines?  I'm not sure.

V/r

Bob

Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bradley Walker on May 29, 2007, 11:08:09 AM
Finger?
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: john e. holliday on May 29, 2007, 12:49:39 PM
My term for an electric starter.  Most guys I have seen put the starter to the engine and keep turning the engine over.  Then I show them how to bump the starter to the spinner and 99% of the time the engine starts easily.  DOC Holliday
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Keith Spriggs on May 29, 2007, 10:46:26 PM
I know this sounds crazy, but I enjoy starting the engine by hand. For me it is part of the overall flying experience.
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bradley Walker on May 30, 2007, 12:08:20 PM
I know this sounds crazy, but I enjoy starting the engine by hand. For me it is part of the overall flying experience.

Poor man, he has lost his mind...  so sad... n~ <=

I enjoy my 12V starter running on 17V.  It scares people.
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Michael Floerchinger on May 31, 2007, 10:02:45 AM
I have never used an electric starter so does that mean I get 10,000 Carbon Credits? ;)

I could donate them to algore, he burned about $30,000 in carbon usage last year at one of his mansions. :!

Actually, the increase in the carbon in the atmosphere is the result of the global warming, not the cause of global warming. There has been  increased solar flare activity that has warmed all the planets, Mars’s polar caps are melting and it’s atmosphere is getting warmer, I cannot remember the last time I drove and flew my airplane there but I do not think I contributed to that warming. ~^
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Leo Mehl on May 31, 2007, 03:59:38 PM
And here I thought that I was the most enviremental friendly starter. I ride Bicycle and also use the bathroom. Does that count or am I being an egetist? LL~ LL~ HB~>
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Keith Spriggs on May 31, 2007, 05:09:36 PM
I ride Bicycle and also use the bathroom.? LL~ LL~ HB~>

You must have a pretty big bathroom to ride a bicycle in there. Or am I confused? :o :o :o :o :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bill Gruby on May 31, 2007, 10:12:54 PM



                                                                                       
LL~


      Now we are gettin somewhere !   n1


             "The G-Man"   VD~
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Leo Mehl on May 31, 2007, 10:43:00 PM
Accually I ride the drill to the bathroom and the Bike to the field, or is it the other way around. I don't know, Billy "g" has me all flustered and be sides he can't get that one thousand inch wing out the window or door. I think he over did it this time. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ y1 y1 y1 y1 ~> ~^ mw~ mw~ :X SH^
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bill Gruby on June 01, 2007, 05:17:07 AM
HMMMMMMMMMMM


      (ACTUALLY I RIDE THE DRILL TO THE BATHROOM)   This sounds interesting, would you care to elaborate a little?

         "The G-Man"  LL~ LL~ LL~
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Leo Mehl on June 01, 2007, 08:13:32 AM
Actually I should have left the drill out of this conversation and perhaps even the bathroom. Ma H^^ybe i should'nt of even posted on this thread. Sometimes I think I am real funny- that should be wierd. Oh what the heck, have a good day. HB~> HB~> HB~>
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bill Gruby on June 01, 2007, 08:43:20 AM





        You Have A good day Too Leo, And You Are Real Funny. Don't Ever Stop Postin, OK? Let's Change The Subject, To Keep In The Spirit Of The Post, Where Can I Buy Environmentally Friendly Silk? Good Stuff, I Need About 5 Yards?

         "Billy G"   HB~> HB~> HB~>
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Marvin Denny on June 01, 2007, 08:58:22 AM
  What was the subject anyway???  Iuse a VERY environmental system---  Finger---  Blood and flesh  bio-degrade very readily.

  Silk---  RSM  or Thai Silks or Dharma.   Be sure to COMPLETELY  rinse out ALL the sizing from the silk if you get either Thai or Dharma.

  Bigiron
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Jim Morris on June 01, 2007, 09:50:04 AM
That socialist Al Gore would be proud!
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Leo Mehl on June 01, 2007, 05:32:52 PM
Gruby, you may be able to get silk from those two redheads! LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Bill Gruby on June 01, 2007, 06:17:01 PM



                     
That's a no-no -------who is this guy with the first name that is the same as my last name?   n1 n1 n1 n1


         "Billy G"   VD~ VD~ VD~
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Robert McHam on June 03, 2007, 10:16:09 AM
I finally ran across a couple of pics of the inertia starters. Just spin them up with the handle and stick the nose of the model on to it! Enjoy!

Robert
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: john e. holliday on June 04, 2007, 06:30:06 AM
I can't beleive I remember one of those things.  They were used in the speed events.  Byron Meriwether related a story of those things and he always warned about getting close to the fly wheel.  Said a young man at on of the Nationals was helping in speed.  The engine was fired and the young man took off with the inertia starter.  Some how he got his pants/shirt cought in the thing.  Byron said it was kind of hysterical watching the youngster and the starter flopping around on the tarmac.  DOC Holliday
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: don Burke on June 04, 2007, 03:29:25 PM
They also had a handling problem.  Because of the usual large flywheel, there was a lot of gyroscopic force built up.  It caused the starter stand to try to go where IT wanted to go when picked up to clear it from the circle.  Quite a bit of torque there on the wrist.  First time experience was fun.
Title: Re: Environementally friendly engine starter
Post by: Leo Mehl on June 05, 2007, 12:28:01 PM
Hey Robert, I remember those. They used them at the 47 nationals to start those ignition speed planes of that era. they worked great