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Author Topic: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?  (Read 2941 times)

Offline Dick Fowler

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Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« on: April 24, 2007, 09:43:01 AM »
Was looking at some old photos taken by Gary Tultz and came across this picture of Ed Kammerer's Apollo along side one of Bill Werwage's Ares. Of particular interest, the date of the photo is 1962 and note the leadout slot. Was this the first adjustable leadout setup?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 01:33:33 PM by Dick Fowler »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2007, 06:00:26 PM »
Where are the experts when you need them.  In 1962 I was busy with Rat Racing, Combat and Navy Carrier.  Did not keep up with stunt at that time.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2007, 07:33:54 PM »
In the Spring of 1967, at our high school flying field, Bob Gieseke showed me the latests trimming device which he said a few top flyers were starting to use.  It had slotted wingtip adjustable leadouts.  Each leadout was carried in a separate grommet which was inserted into adjustment holes spaced along the slot.  I liked the idea of adjusting the leadouts but thought the idea could be improved on in several ways.  I had just built an airplane with a movable rudder to compensate for the undesirable aerodynamic effects of gyroscopic precession.  With a heightened awareness of gyroscopic precession, I could see that there was some theoretical advantage to reversing the leadouts to make the front leadout the "UP" leadout.  Also Bob had papered over his slot in construction which only encouraged a reluctance to open the slot and actually experiment.  Also having the leadouts individually adjustable would encourage fruitless results in trimming.  Leadouts should be as close together as practical as they can also create undesired yawing moments in our stunt ships.  Finally, adjustments were limited to the number of grommet holes in the slot.

Still, it was the germ of a really neat system.  I just thought the slotted wingtip could be improved.  First, in my configuration, the leadouts were reversed to make the front leadout the up leadout.  Second, both leadouts would be mounted on a sliding carrier which would be retained in place with a locking screw.  This fixed a minimum spacing between the leadouts and allowed for fine adjustment along the slot as opposed to step adjustment in holes.  That fall I built my first "SLIDING BLOCK ADJUSTABLE LEADOUTS".  I never claimed to have invented adjustable leadouts, not even those which used a slotted wingtip.  I did claim to have, to the best of my knowledge, invented the sliding block adjustable leadout which is so popular now.  I had never seen or read about, any leadout adjustment any more sophisticated than Bob's slotted wingtip.

It is entirely possible that someone did use a sliding block before me, but if it happened, I was completely unaware of it.  I published a photo of my sliding block adjustment in the 1970 Bearcat article and included plans for making them.  Again,  I have never seen a photo clearly showing a sliding block leadout dating before  mine.  That same article showed plans for making my version.  It goes without saying that I had also never seen a similar drawing.  The photo was of a Mustang that I competed with in 1969. 
Whatever may come to light, my work was original.  I have still never seen a photo or drawing which predated the sliding block leadouts built in 1967, used in competition in 1969, and published in 1970.

In the 40 years since I built my first sliding block adjustable leadout, There has never been the slightest suggestion that my claims were baseless as to fact if not intention.

If Ed's leadouts were sliding block configuration, then more power to him.  Stunt always improves as new ideas and concepts are added to our body of building and flying lore.

Al

You know, that line on the wingtip certainly looks like adjustable leadouts, but it could be skid marks from attempting a wing-under with not quite enough altitude;

Or maybe it is a bit of blood.  Some judges stand too close to the circles;

Or maybe ED was numbering his airplanes.  That was the first one and he did it laying down;

Or maybe it is a high water mark to tell when the circles are too wet to fly;

Or maybe it is an attitude reference line so Ed could tell when he is flying level.

And I'll bet this doesn't cover most of the likely possibilities.

Al
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 11:40:00 AM by Al Rabe »

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 04:16:16 PM »
Around 1965 or so my dad built a Shark 45 from the Jetco kit.  He used an adjustable leadout system that I THOUGHT came form the kit (anyone know for sure?),  It required a removable "clamshell" that was used to clamp and hold the leadout eyelets.  I also remember it scared me to death!

When Al first showed & shared his design for the sliding block it was like one of those "duh" moments when you see something that seemed difficult all of a sudden become dirt simple & dependable and all you can say is HECK YES (words to that effect) and why didn't I think of it?  Did he invent it - as far as I am concerned he did.  For certain, once he published it there were LOTS of slotted wingtips and sliding blocks the following season!

I also copied (I mean "reverse engineered") his "front line up" feature after talking it over with perfessor Al.  He never quite talked me into a coupled rudder though... or maybe I should say "yet"!



Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

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Offline Mike Foley

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 04:46:29 PM »
  I have two of the Jetco Shark kits and they do show the adjustable leadouts on the plans. Like Denise says, they are kinda clam shell like.  Basically it is a shaped piece of  thin aluminum that is bolted flat with the wingtip. Slots are then cut or filed out for the different leadout positions. Doesn't look good

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 05:18:59 PM »
Mike:
Great/fast feedback.  So you gonna build it and let us know how it works?!! (yikes!)  Properly done it would probably be fine, but the sliding block took the desirable but seldom seen (at the time) feature and made it STANDARD and almost ordinary in short order.

There were other workable ways to do adjustable leadouts, but none clearly better than the sliding block popularized by Al.

Back to the original post: cannot say I have ever hear of Ed Kammerer or the Apollo (heck, I was only 8 when the pix was taken!)  Any more "seasoned" folks out there who knew the man or the bird and can comment whether the slot WAS adjustable leadouts?  I have had ( and seen) birds where non-adjustable leadouts were adjusted the hard way after some trim flights.  A black line might be a simple way to repair/hide what was done.  Wonder if the other tip also had a line on it - where the extra wing tip weight was added?  (not that I've ever done THAT)

Oh Mike, its Dennis - not DENISE!!!  #^ LL~  H^^
Denny Adamisin
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Offline Mike Foley

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2007, 06:35:21 PM »
  OOPS!  Sorry about the name spelling Dennis.  I have a habit of not doing spell checks while posting on a BBS.
Although I have never flown at a Nationals I still remember your Nat's winning model which was featured in a magazine way back in the early 70's. Really liked that plane with the Tiger stripes under the wing.  I was probably about 12 or 13 at the time. Weren't you a Junior or Senior and won the Walker Cup? Who was it you bested in the open class?  Some planes really stick with you over time, like Al's Mustangs as well as some of your high aspect ratio wing designs.

  My two Shark kits I bought direct from the factory in 1983 before Jetco closed up shop. Company had a special half price sale direct mail order so I bought two. Both kits are still in the shipping carton only taken out a couple of times for the drool factor.  One of these years I will build at least one of them but will no doubt use one of Al's sliding block style lead out guides. The clam shell design would probably do more harm then good. Would probably fray the leadouts in short order.

Offline EddyR

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2007, 07:07:10 PM »
I was 22 in 1962 and I traveled NY,Pen,and Ohio on business and so I got to see many of the top stunter of that day. I do not remember seeing anyone who had a adjustable leadout back then. I met Ed several times and made schetches of his plane and I don't remember a opening in the wing tip.I think Ed had a flying tail plane also.
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Offline Shultzie

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2007, 08:56:28 PM »


  My two Shark kits I bought direct from the factory in 1983 before Jetco closed up shop. Company had a special half price sale direct mail order so I bought two. Both kits are still in the shipping carton only taken out a couple of times for the drool factor.  One of these years I will build at least one of them but will no doubt use one of Al's sliding block style lead out guides. The clam shell design would probably do more harm then good. Would probably fray the leadouts in short order.
[/quote]

Here is one of my old Sharks that I "rekitted" at a contest where the circle was laid out for 60ft...but sadly I was flying on 70ft. of line...and hit a crowd control barrier stand on the other side of the circle.
GADS! I HATE WHEN THAT HAPPENS.... SHARKS RULE! SO DOES LEW McFARLAND!
Don Shultz

Offline Mike Foley

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 07:36:41 AM »
  Man check out the sneakers!  Like a couple of fairy's standing side by side.  Did people really wear shoes like that?

Yuck!!!

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 08:17:29 AM »
That's what they're gonna be saying about this era, in about 30 years.
--Ray 
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Offline Bill Gruby

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 08:26:50 AM »

     HEY MIKE;

        Stick with me on this one Ray.  Mike in my profile under age it says 61. and yes they wore sneakers like that. Now my point is HOW OLD IS NA, never heard of that age?   LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

           "Billy G"   BW@ BW@ BW@

  EDIT-----The ones with the two white stripes are "CONVERSE ALLSTARS" hows that for a memory?   LL~ LL~
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 09:02:50 AM by Bill Gruby »
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Offline Shultzie

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2007, 10:52:25 AM »
  Man check out the sneakers!  Like a couple of fairy's standing side by side.  Did people really wear shoes like that?

Yuck!!!

 LL~ LL~ LL~ "A couple of fairy's standing side by side!" U think that is weird or funny....check out this shot with my Shiney Golden shirt to match on my other model that I flew the next week end. LL~
Don Shultz

Offline Mike Foley

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2007, 11:43:09 AM »
  White pants, white shoes, gold shirt to match the plane. Even immaculate hair grooming.  Why do competitors not dress that way today? The belly and age factor or do the pilots realize the judges are looking at the planes and not the pilots?   

Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2007, 12:35:57 PM »
FIRST you shopped for clothes THEN you selected the color scheme for the bird.

Next you "accessorize" matching watch band (Dave Gierke & AAE), hat, paper towels & REALLY cool shades.   8)

Finally, at the top of their game were those who painted their TOOL BOX to match the plane, complete with panel lines & rubbed out finish (LeRoy Gunther)   n~

Cannot remember seeing a practice-only tool box...  LL~

Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2007, 10:46:33 PM »
FIRST you shopped for clothes THEN you selected the color scheme for the bird.

Next you "accessorize" matching watch band (Dave Gierke & AAE), hat, paper towels & REALLY cool shades.   8)

Finally, at the top of their game were those who painted their TOOL BOX to match the plane, complete with panel lines & rubbed out finish (LeRoy Gunther)   n~

Cannot remember seeing a practice-only tool box...  LL~



OK! I was going to save this old cartoon that I did up for one of Dave Gierke's articles a very long time ago...
Talk about weird art...check this out!!! This is one of my reeeeeaaallly early toon drawing concepts for dress code stuff! OUCH!

(oops...my download attachment didn't fly) I will try posting it later.
Don Shultz

Offline Keith Spriggs

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2007, 10:50:22 PM »
Hey that Wart Hog guy looks like me. I think I will crop that slick dude out of the picture and hang old Wart Hog in my shop.

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2007, 11:02:00 PM »
Sorry gang...for the OVER LARGE DOODLE ART! must have messed with the Pix' setting on that scanner again.
I will try to fix it later.. (this was just a quicky "work up pencil sketch:(

WART HOGS....OFTEN STILL SEEM TO FLY BETTER? HUMM? WHY? I DOUGHNOOOO?' LL~
Don Shultz

Offline Keith Spriggs

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2007, 08:30:43 AM »
     HEY MIKE;

        Stick with me on this one Ray.  Mike in my profile under age it says 61. and yes they wore sneakers like that. Now my point is HOW OLD IS NA, never heard of that age?   LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

           "Billy G"   BW@ BW@ BW@

  EDIT-----The ones with the two white stripes are "CONVERSE ALLSTARS" hows that for a memory?   LL~ LL~

Hey those "CONVERSE ALLSTARS" look pretty cutting edge to me.  Remember my main footwear was engineer boots for daily wear. Engineer boots were slip on leather boots with a strap and brass buckle. I wasn't bad enough to be a Hells Angel more like a heck angel, but I did look the part. And now for confession time. I actually owned and wore on Saturday night BLUE SUEDE SHOES. Yes Alice there really was such a thing. My profile says 69 (if I didn't lie about it).

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2007, 10:15:16 AM »
Hey those "CONVERSE ALLSTARS" look pretty cutting edge to me.  Remember my main footwear was engineer boots for daily wear. Engineer boots were slip on leather boots with a strap and brass buckle. I wasn't bad enough to be a Hells Angel more like a heck angel, but I did look the part. And now for confession time. I actually owned and wore on Saturday night BLUE SUEDE SHOES. Yes Alice there really was such a thing. My profile says 69 (if I didn't lie about it).

My wife Carol and I went birthday shopping at Nordstrom's yesterday and while walking by the mens shoe dept. on display?
 SNEAKERS JUST LIKE THE ONES IN THE BUSTED SHARK PHOTO...FOR ONLY $139.95 Hummm? I busted that old Shark waaaay back in the mid 60's when those shoes must have sold for under $10.00 bucks? n' the people say: "THAT'S LIFE!" H^^
Don Shultz

Offline Mike Foley

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2007, 10:19:02 PM »
  Lets see, when I was younger I probably more resembled the guys dress code on the left.  Levis, harness boots, t- shirt and military fatigue jacket during weather. Oh and long hair.

  You are quite the artist Shultzie, keep up the neat work.  Just too cool

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Ed Kammerer's Apollo - Adjustable Leadouts?
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2007, 10:02:21 AM »
Lou McFarland had adjustable leadouts on the Shark 45 that he flew at the '61 Willow Grove Nats
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