Dumb Engine Starting Questions

[Tim Wescott]

Well, I was out in the driveway just now, reacquainting myself with the joys of two-stroke glow engines and raising the general tone of the neighbourhood by getting in some bench running of my Fox 35 before putting in the Nobler to (oh I hope!) go flying Saturday.

How in heck do you start those things under contest conditions?  I think I used up my allotted time just getting the first burble out of the dang thing -- and that was upright on a test stand, not inverted in a plane!  I know that it'll come back to me, but still...

How many folks start inverted, then go upright to fly?  How many just casually waltz up to the plane, plug in the ni-starter, flip the prop and go?  How in Sam Hill do you prime (or choke) those suckers when they're inverted?  (Can you tell this is my first plane with an inverted engine?)  Do you leave the cowl off, then put it on once the engine's running?  Do you go through a whole contest weekend without touching the cowl?

Dumb questions, all, but answers would be appreciated none the less.

I think for first flight I'm gonna leave the spinner off and borrow a starter.

[Joe Messinger]

Tim,

Leave the spinner on if you're gonna' use a starter.

I know using an electric starter is frowned on by many but I've got some engines that you can flip until Hell freezes over and they refuse to start. Hit um' with the starter and they're running.  It's safer too.  

I'm sure others will give you the lowdown on starting inverted engines.  Each engine and fuel system seem to have their own personality when it comes to starting, or not. . .

Good luck,

Joe

[Andrew Borgogna]

Forget about the starter being frowned on.  They work and they save fingers.  I always use a starter when I fly in contests and yes I start my inverted engines with the plane inverted.  I know there are people that seem to be able to start them right side up, but I can't seem to do it reliably.
Andy

[Paul Taylor]

I am the last person to take advice when it comes to Fox's. If your are lucky Big Iron will jump in here.

Here is what I learned from BI himself.
Choke and pull fuel up to the NVA, a small squirt of fuel in the vent, flip over a few times. Hook up the glow starter. Pull over one time and feel the bump, then give it a good flip. This seems to work on a cold engine. Electric starters are not recommend for Fox's. Something about pushing the rod on the back plate. ( But I have used them a time a or two on some that are hard to start.) A hot Fox is very hard to start. Each engine seems to have it's own way of starting. Good luck.

I do like the OS engines, very user friendly.

[john e. holliday]

I learned from watching Bigiron and Silverfox.  Before getting to the pit area, go off by your self with plane and pit box.  Invert the plane and put some fuel in the verturi.  Don't fill the tank.  Flip the prop a few times and see if the engine loosens up a little.  Now hook up your battery while holding the prop.  Pull the prop thru and see if you get a bump.  If it bumps flip the prop.  It should start and run out the prime.  When it does, prime it again and start it.  This will loosen the engine up and get all the old castor out.  Most of the time once I get on the circle with the tank filled ahead of time in the ready area, it is hook up battery and pull the prop thru.  I usually get a bump and then flip.  If it doesn't start immediately, then flip the plane over and start it.  I tell the person helping me to wait until I get a hold of the plane.  Then move out of the way so I can flip it back up right and set it on the ground.  Then the helper takes hold of the plane.  Like I said most of the time the engine will start inverted.

[Neville Legg]

If you are going to use an electric starter, make sure you use it with the engine upright! If you use it on an inverted engine, and you flood it and get a hydraulic lock, a powerful starter could bend the con-rod! Make sure your glow battery in well charged, and you have good fresh fuel, and a good plug (nice bright glow) and it should start by hand quite easily!

Cheers       Neville

[SteveMoon]

Electric starter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Save yourself time, trouble, and possible cut fingers.

Steve

[Jim Thomerson]

Being an old racing person, I took pride in going to a contest and getting first flip starts.  For an inverted Fox, squirt fuel on the side of the piston, choke it four times, attach the glow clip, raise your hand, flip and go fly.  With my upright Fox, I watch the venturi as i fuel.  If fuel goes into the venturi, I squirt some on the side of the piston, turn it over with the prop tightly held for the bump, then flip and fly.  If I don't see any fuel come into the venturi, I squirt fuel and choke it once.

I use Fox 2-volt plugs and light them up with a 2-volt Cyclon battery.   

[David Shad]

I don't prime my fox .35's when they are inverted...they always start fine if you don't flood them.  I pull
the prop thru as Ty said 5 or 6 times with my finger over the venturi then a few more times to make sure
the engine is primed...it will bumb slightly when it's right...one flip and it's running...now I qualifly that by
saying my engine has over 100 flights on it and is broken in.  I ran it at the field several times on the ground
rich before the first flight...purrs like a kitten every time now.  I run 5% nitro and 29% castor Powermaster
in mine and it has never let me down...one blown plug in that time.  ARF Nobler at 42oz.

I use an electric starter....I don't have to...but it is safer.

There is a lot of experience on this forum...just ask......There is no such thing as a dumb question here.

[Alan Hahn]

Well, I was out in the driveway just now, reacquainting myself with the joys of two-stroke glow engines and raising the general tone of the neighbourhood by getting in some bench running of my Fox 35 before putting in the Nobler to (oh I hope!) go flying Saturday.

How in heck do you start those things under contest conditions?  I think I used up my allotted time just getting the first burble out of the dang thing -- and that was upright on a test stand, not inverted in a plane!  I know that it'll come back to me, but still...

How many folks start inverted, then go upright to fly?  How many just casually waltz up to the plane, plug in the ni-starter, flip the prop and go?  How in Sam Hill do you prime (or choke) those suckers when they're inverted?  (Can you tell this is my first plane with an inverted engine?)  Do you leave the cowl off, then put it on once the engine's running?  Do you go through a whole contest weekend without touching the cowl?

Dumb questions, all, but answers would be appreciated none the less.

I think for first flight I'm gonna leave the spinner off and borrow a starter.

I think Ty had the right question---is it broken in? If it isn't, then prepare for a sore arm---at least until it is 1/4 to 1/2 broken in.

If you go with a starter and use it with an inverted engine, I wouldn't try and pre-choke it upright. As others have pointed out, that is liable to load up the engine and possibly cause a hydraulic lock and a bent rod. I would choke it with airplane in normal stance just to get fuel to the venturi, then hit the starter (or even not choke it at all).

[Howard Rush]

If you live near Portland, just take it to Delta Park.  The guys there will do the flipping.

[Marvin Denny]

  Tim, Your initial post has too many questions for me to respond to in type. My good hand is still troubling me and I can't type well (this much took 30 minutes)
  If you will call me, I will address each problem you have and go through each one step by step.
  \  I'll be home all day and evening and I'm in  the central time zone

Marvin Denny  aka  Bigiron
  Pho#  (316)838-8494

[Richard Grogan]

  I'm not really sure of all the reasons why folks won't use electric starters.everyone is different. As many of you, myself included, came from a time when there wasn't such a thing as a hand-held starter, and flipping was the only option.Or a chicken stick. There's no excuse not to use one today, as it is so much safer,easier,and a logical choice."Use it or lose it"...Maybe it is a statement to display our experience as old timers and show toughness/bravery/traditionalism,what ever, but with some of the stories I've read about chops and fingers being severed off, its more of a statement of stubborness and ignorance! I don't get it either.

 

Tim, like David said, there are no dumb questions here. Good luck with that inverted Fox!

[Tim Wescott]

I'm not really sure of all the reasons why folks won't use electric starters.everyone is different. As many of you, myself included, came from a time when there wasn't such a thing as a hand-held starter, and flipping was the only option.Or a chicken stick. There's no excuse not to use one today, as it is so much safer,easier,and a logical choice."Use it or lose it"...Maybe it is a statement to display our experience as old timers and show toughness/bravery/traditionalism,what ever, but with some of the stories I've read about chops and fingers being severed off, its more of a statement of stubborness and ignorance! I don't get it either.

 

Tim, like David said, there are no dumb questions here. Good luck with that inverted Fox!

Well, I have three excellent* reasons for not using a starter:

One, the spinner is an old plastic Carl Goldberg unit that I don't want to mar with a starter.  True, if it get's marred then the Econocoat will no longer be the worst part of the finish, but still...

Two, I'm in an unofficial** competition with "Mr. Engine" at my local flying field, who takes longer to put his good ol' startin' glove on than he does to get an engine running.  Using a starter would be giving up, even if it's his starter I borrow.

Three, I'm on a budget like everyone else, and there's other things I'd rather buy than a starter.

* Well, they're good for me.
** So unofficial, in fact, that he doesn't know it.

[Tim Wescott]

If you live near Portland, just take it to Delta Park.  The guys there will do the flipping.

I'm planning on going to the New Year's Day fun fly, but I'd like to have a couple of flights on the thing before then.

Delta Park's too far for regular flying when my club field is just 15 minutes from my house -- and besides, I'm hoping to convert some of them from RC.

[Richard Grogan]

Well, I have three excellent* reasons for not using a starter:

One, the spinner is an old plastic Carl Goldberg unit that I don't want to mar with a starter.  True, if it get's marred then the Econocoat will no longer be the worst part of the finish, but still...

Two, I'm in an unofficial** competition with "Mr. Engine" at my local flying field, who takes longer to put his good ol' startin' glove on than he does to get an engine running.  Using a starter would be giving up, even if it's his starter I borrow.

Three, I'm on a budget like everyone else, and there's other things I'd rather buy than a starter.

* Well, they're good for me.
** So unofficial, in fact, that he doesn't know it.

 

[Alan Hahn]

If you live near Portland, just take it to Delta Park.  The guys there will do the flipping.

Or bring it to a Treetown meeting.

[Dick Pacini]

Along the same lines is the question...At what displacement is hand flipping just too dangerous or not possible?  Does it matter if it is a 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

I have scars on my hand from 50 years ago that were made by a Fox 35.  Years later, I was flipping OS Max 35's and rolling the prop over by hand checking for the bump.  Never got bitten again.

My re-entry into this hobby has caused me to amass an engine collection from a 36 all the way up to a 51.  As props get closer to 12", I am less enthusiastic about grabbing on.

[Jim Thomerson]

I have thought about the head priming problem with a muffler but have never done anything about it.  Theoretical advice is to drill a tiny hole in the muffler and use a hypodermic to inject exactly 0.72ml of fuel.   

[Neville Legg]

Its not a macho thing to start a motor by hand, I used to be a pit-man in a Goodyear team, and obviously starters were not allowed, and first time starts by hand were very necessary if you wanted to win! which we did occasionally. I do use a starter on big 4/strokes as I haven't got the knack of hand starting them yet. I've seen club members start their engines with a starter and still manage to stick their digits in the prop, with severe results! A backfire will get you a rap across the finger, with a cut, but its when the engine is running that most damage is done!

Cheers     Neville

[Alan Hahn]

To be honest, I don't think hand starting is dangerous at all. But I do use a finger protector, especially with Foxes which for some reason like to pop on you.

What I think is dangerous happens after the engine starts. Usually involves removing the glow ignitor or adjusting the needle---and forgetting that there is a spinning prop, and with CL, it is spinning pretty fast! So here a starter doesn't help you at all--except to distract you as you try to keep its cables out of the prop. A starter with a onboard battery pack is really best.

Do I use a starter--occasionally, especially with 4 strokes because getting them primed can be painful--especially with normal upright engine installations. I also tend to use muffler pressure, and with a 4 stroke, you sometimes can get backward running with a flip ---the mufffler acting as the intake and the carb acting as the exhaust. In CL with no throttle to close, that can be a real mess as the exhaust is inside the fuse! With a starter I just pop it on the spinner and start that prop swinging. A little touch over the muffler exhaust will pump up pressure to the tank and get the fuel to the carb, and away it goes. Still have to be careful with those darn power cables!

[Clancy Arnold]

Back about 1950 (when I started in flying) I invested in a starter.  It was made by Pylon Brand (I think),  It was operated by pulling on a rope that would give about two revolutions of the starter cup.  after each pull you had to allow it to rewind the rope back on the shaft by a clock spring.  Very crude but it did work.  I had a McCoy 60 redhead on ignition that it was the only way too start it.

Clancy

[Ward Van Duzer]

You need 3 things to start an IC engine.

Fuel. (got that)

Air. (got that)

And a lit glo plug. (Ahhhhh!)

Glo lighters (Batteries?)

Rechargable batteries are mostly 1.2 Volts.

Non-rechargable (Dry cells, & Flash lights, etc) are 1.5 volts.

Gates Cyclon rechargables are 2.0 Volts.

Glo plugs are 1.5 V. and 2.0 V.

You do the thinking, and go forth and start your engines!


W.