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Author Topic: Control horns  (Read 2764 times)

Online Bill Morell

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Control horns
« on: November 18, 2022, 10:25:15 AM »
I am in need of some control horns. Double horns to be exact. I haven't been able to get a response from Okieair.  Is anyone out there making these other than this guy that bought out Tom Morris?
 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 03:39:00 PM by Bill Morell »
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2022, 10:38:27 AM »
I am in need of some control horns. Double horns to be exact. I haven't been able to get a response from Okieair, I know, shocking. Is anyone out there making these other than this guy that bought out Tom Morris?
 
My response to getting horns has been to learn how to braze properly.

Ken
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Online Bill Morell

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2022, 11:05:46 AM »
My response to getting horns has been to learn how to braze properly.

Ken

Well good for you and I'm happy for you. However I'm not going out and buy a torch and all that goes with it. As I stated in the opening post I'm looking for someone who does it that already has the necessary equipment to do the job.
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Offline Leonard Bourel

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2022, 11:38:45 AM »
I think Brodak makes horns I wonder if you could give them the specs and they could make them up for you Worth a try. Len

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2022, 12:00:42 PM »
Well good for you and I'm happy for you. However I'm not going out and buy a torch and all that goes with it. As I stated in the opening post I'm looking for someone who does it that already has the necessary equipment to do the job.

  While Ken's answer seemed a little flip, I think we need to face the fact that we are at the point where we need to start making most of our own hardware. All you need is a propylene torch and a small brazing wire kit. Anything else (hacksaw, drills files) you probably already have.

     Brett


Online Bill Morell

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2022, 12:20:27 PM »
  While Ken's answer seemed a little flip, I think we need to face the fact that we are at the point where we need to start making most of our own hardware. All you need is a propylene torch and a small brazing wire kit. Anything else (hacksaw, drills files) you probably already have.

     Brett

Brett, I always appreciate your help and suggestions. I don't see that many builds in my future that justify the expenditure of the necessary equipment.
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2022, 01:00:58 PM »
I doesn't take much.  I use a standard hardware store propane torch head with a bottle of mapp gas and a brazing rod, also from the hardware.  Outlay maybe $25-$30 bucks.

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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2022, 01:27:54 PM »
I build my own fuel tanks.  I had to learn since most of the commercially available tanks are questionable.  I suppose we'll soon be doing that for most of the hardware we use if we want to keep flying.

Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2022, 01:31:24 PM »
I have to agree with Brett.  Although the initial expense might seem too much to justify for making one or two items, I think you will find that it is, in the end, a worthwhile expense.  In the past, when I spent the money for equipment and hardware to do something myself, I ended up using those items more than I thought.

And, after seeing the decrease in quality of some items I bought, along with fewer suppliers, I figured it was time to learn how to do it.  Now, I can make what I want, tailored to the airplane.


Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2022, 02:50:25 PM »
Have you checked out RSM Dist? D>K
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Offline Craig Beswick

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2022, 04:09:25 PM »
RSM have been out of stock of 1/8" for months!
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Offline Bill Hummel

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2022, 05:05:52 PM »
Hello, gents, about control horns:  Brodak sells at least 26 different metal control horns. That includes:  standard single upright, 3/32 or 1/8, just need to add a brass bushing. Next are the dual steel uprights, already bushed. Then there are the differential style horns, and finally the adjustable horns, with 3/48 socket head screws and 3/48 slider nut. I’ve had no problems at all with any of the horns.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2022, 11:14:38 PM »
Brett, I always appreciate your help and suggestions. I don't see that many builds in my future that justify the expenditure of the necessary equipment.

  OK, no problem, I am certainly not trying to talk you into anything. I did check to see how much the torches cost, and it was much more than I ever paid. I think my MAPP gas torch cost me about $15 at the local hardware store, it's way more than that now.

    I have never been able to find adequate horns with offset angles that match my geometry, so I have had to make mine for a very long time now.

       Brett

Offline George Grossardt

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2022, 06:43:57 AM »
I think this horn (and glow plugs, and balsa) discussion is a great example of why our hobby is in decline.  I find this sad.

I am sure some see this as evolution or maybe just requiring more craftsmanship or something. And that may very well be true.  I think of the lack of easy access to supply of hobby products as a barrier to growth.

I am also a realist.  If there is no demand, then companies or small business owners have no long term incentive to produce a product.  I think we are at that point. 

In the mean time, supporting the suppliers we have is important.

Now I’m going to have my coffee.



Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2022, 07:21:21 AM »
George you are so very right.  Try to support who we have left.     If you can get the horns you want though,  just checked the price of a brazing kit:
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Online Bill Morell

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2022, 07:45:29 AM »
I appreciate everyone's input into my quest. As it stands right now Okieair got back to me yesterday. Russ says that he has been buried with his regular job and is trying to fill orders on the weekends. Right now I have 15 orders ahead of me and then he'll do my horns. I am not going to get involved in any controversy over his business. Life is good.
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Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2022, 01:09:32 PM »
FWIW, there is no need for MAP, regular propane torch is more than hot enough for brazing horns.
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Offline Dave Harmon

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2022, 01:15:53 PM »
Somewhere I read that MAP gas is not being produced anymore.....mebby they changed their mind(s)!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2022, 01:25:47 PM »
Somewhere I read that MAP gas is not being produced anymore.....mebby they changed their mind(s)!

  It's replaced with propylene, which works about as well.

    You can do it with a propane torch but it's much more iffy and you get a very wide heat-affected area.

         Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2022, 01:38:26 PM »
I think this horn (and glow plugs, and balsa) discussion is a great example of why our hobby is in decline.  I find this sad.

I am sure some see this as evolution or maybe just requiring more craftsmanship or something. And that may very well be true.  I think of the lack of easy access to supply of hobby products as a barrier to growth.

   CL hasn't been a major fraction of the hobby industry since the early 70's, as soon as you could get a digital proportional RC (vice a finicky reed system) for $200-300, all the people flying casual CL immediately switched. Most of what we recall as a "golden age" were just the consumers waiting to - and forgive me - "move up" to RC. That was 2 full generations ago, 50ish years, or *half a century*.

    The notion that we can do something to "grow the hobby" into a major market activity is, frankly, ludicrous, and most of the efforts along those lines have been highly counter-productive. We have some thing that *we* like, it's staying about even or sinking slowly as far as participation goes, let's move on from nostalgia.

      I think CL Stunt has been almost miraculously successful in retaining activity on something so far out of the mainstream, FAR better than almost any other "niche" of modeling hobbies. I think we have a much better chance of having a enjoyable event for those who want to do it by trying to figure out how we have managed to stave it off so long, rather than trying to make wholesale changes to try to make it a mass appeal activity, because as far as I can tell, that is patently impossible.

    Brett


p.s. I take as an example of how hobbies have collapsed into niches - plastic modeling. Yes, people still do it, there are plenty of very high-quality plastic modeling products and absolutely stellar information available for how to do it. But first wood, then plastic, static scale modeling was an absolutely huge and ubiquitous activity. Damn near every boy build at least some of them, the market penetration was nearly 100%, every department store, drug store, even convenience stores had a toy section and most of the boys side of toy section was dedicated to plastic models, usually with a testors paint rack, too. It was a huge, universal, hobby.

    Try finding one now, even at what they refer to as a "hobby shop" (Hobby Lobby, Michael's, etc). That market collapsed for all the usual reasons we have gone on about for years, but the point is, it did collapse, and it was *far, far bigger* and required far less knowledge/effort/dedication/space than CL ever did.

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2022, 02:14:32 PM »
I have to agree with Brett’s comments above.  Sadly many have tried to stir up new waves in our sport but no more than temporary ripples.  It’s a regrettable cycle;  no hobby shops,  no local interest,  dying hobby industry.  So many other things competing for youngsters time.  Stubbornly we hold on.
Mapp gas is quite readily available.   Propane WILL work-  with patience,  very small brazing rod,  no breeze and luck.  Mapp is much hotter and foolproof.  I used propane years ago when making large batches and took forever.  Also better joins.  I tested the propane joints by trying to twist them.  I’d get a few failures due to not getting the metals hot enough.  Go Mapp!

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2022, 05:04:07 PM »
I have to agree with Brett’s comments above.  Sadly many have tried to stir up new waves in our sport but no more than temporary ripples.  It’s a regrettable cycle;  no hobby shops,  no local interest,  dying hobby industry.  So many other things competing for youngsters time.  Stubbornly we hold on.
Mapp gas is quite readily available.   Propane WILL work-  with patience,  very small brazing rod,  no breeze and luck.  Mapp is much hotter and foolproof.  I used propane years ago when making large batches and took forever.  Also better joins.  I tested the propane joints by trying to twist them.  I’d get a few failures due to not getting the metals hot enough.  Go Mapp!

Dave


   Read the labels on the cylinders of the gas you have. I was curious, because I thought MAPP had been discontinued a long time ago , so I just did a quickie google search and MAPP was discontinues and has been replaced by substitutes. One company called Blue Flame even still uses the name MAPP, but has substituted propylene in their mix. We covered MAPP gas a little bit in welding school back a bazzilion years ago, and all I remember about is that our instructor said that it was considered "dirty fuel gas" and only used when you could not get acetylene. I never worked any where that I had to use it. I always had acetylene "B" tanks with an air/acetylene torch. My guess is that you are buying a substitute that looks just like the old brand you are used to buying. Real MAPP gas production was ceased back in 2008, according to what I read.
   What ever you use, use the hottest gas you can get and the smallest tip you can use to more locate the heat.  Ideally, I would use an oxy/acetylene aviator style torch with a small tip. Get in tight, get it hot quick, flow brazing material and back away slowly and let the blue part of the flame on the end cover the joint as it cools back down below red to help keep the joint from oxidizing, and once below red let it cool normally.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2022, 07:05:03 PM »
I have to agree with Brett’s comments above.  Sadly many have tried to stir up new waves in our sport but no more than temporary ripples.  It’s a regrettable cycle;  no hobby shops,  no local interest,  dying hobby industry.  So many other things competing for youngsters time.

    I would only add that it all boils down to "interest".  A lot of people seem to hold the opinion that all we need is more exposure, if enough people see us, then, they will become enthralled. That is certainly not true, no one is interested even when they do see us, at the very best.

      I have told this story before, but our site in Napa is right next to a very popular nature trail, a skatepark is the next thing up the road, an RC site, then a BMX track even further. Anyone following the trail goes right by the circle, anyone going to do BMX or skateboard has to go right past, and we see dozens to a few hundred kids 6-16 go by every time we are there. Not once, after dozens of flying sessions on Sunday mornings with all these people, with competitive stunt pilots and Concours-quality airplanes 10 feet away, has one of these kids even done more than glance in our direction, they just don't care about it.

    The only people who routinely stop to watch are grandparents pushing grandchildren in strollers or with toddlers they are looking after. Grampa and Grandma stop, ask intelligent questions, are awed by the wingover, etc. Kids and parents of kids never even look up.

    That is the root of the problem, and we can't solve it. Model airplanes as a hobby and aviation as a point of universal interest started dying the day Sputnik was launched.
 
    There are no hobby shops the way we understand then because almost no one wants/needs a hobby shop, that is not a defect, it is inevitable. Access is not the problem, visibility and lack of promotion is not a factor.  We haven't failed and it isn't anyone's or any institutions or societies fault.

    We have an event that at least *some* people like, rather a lot of people in fact, let's make sure we run and support it as it is as well as we can, and not worry and berate ourselves, each other, or mysterious forces, because there is a perfectly simple and obvious reason we have this situation - we are the only ones who care about it.

      Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2022, 07:09:29 PM »
My guess is that you are buying a substitute that looks just like the old brand you are used to buying. Real MAPP gas production was ceased back in 2008, according to what I read.

  The relevant part being that the substitute, propylene, is perfectly satisfactory for the stated purpose, and I can't tell much difference in the performance.

     Brett

Offline George Grossardt

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2022, 07:05:03 AM »
    I would only add that it all boils down to "interest".  A lot of people seem to hold the opinion that all we need is more exposure, if enough people see us, then, they will become enthralled. That is certainly not true, no one is interested even when they do see us, at the very best.

      I have told this story before, but our site in Napa is right next to a very popular nature trail, a skatepark is the next thing up the road, an RC site, then a BMX track even further. Anyone following the trail goes right by the circle, anyone going to do BMX or skateboard has to go right past, and we see dozens to a few hundred kids 6-16 go by every time we are there. Not once, after dozens of flying sessions on Sunday mornings with all these people, with competitive stunt pilots and Concours-quality airplanes 10 feet away, has one of these kids even done more than glance in our direction, they just don't care about it.

    The only people who routinely stop to watch are grandparents pushing grandchildren in strollers or with toddlers they are looking after. Grampa and Grandma stop, ask intelligent questions, are awed by the wingover, etc. Kids and parents of kids never even look up.

    That is the root of the problem, and we can't solve it. Model airplanes as a hobby and aviation as a point of universal interest started dying the day Sputnik was launched.
 
    There are no hobby shops the way we understand then because almost no one wants/needs a hobby shop, that is not a defect, it is inevitable. Access is not the problem, visibility and lack of promotion is not a factor.  We haven't failed and it isn't anyone's or any institutions or societies fault.

    We have an event that at least *some* people like, rather a lot of people in fact, let's make sure we run and support it as it is as well as we can, and not worry and berate ourselves, each other, or mysterious forces, because there is a perfectly simple and obvious reason we have this situation - we are the only ones who care about it.

      Brett



Perfectly nailed the state of the hobby.

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2022, 01:14:09 PM »
Yes, agreed.

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2022, 06:17:01 AM »
Hello, gents, about control horns:  Brodak sells at least 26 different metal control horns. That includes:  standard single upright, 3/32 or 1/8, just need to add a brass bushing. Next are the dual steel uprights, already bushed. Then there are the differential style horns, and finally the adjustable horns, with 3/48 socket head screws and 3/48 slider nut. I’ve had no problems at all with any of the horns.

I did have a problem with the 1/8" double post horns that ended up costing me an airplane and forced early retirement of another.  At least some batches had the bushings made of a very soft material which failed quickly and caused the steel pushrod end to pound out the upright.  I would make brass bushings if I were to use those horns again.
Steve

Online Bill Morell

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2022, 07:59:42 AM »
I have also called Brodaks about these horns and according to Debbie they DO NOT make any double horns. Still waiting for Nivarna from Okieair......
Bill Morell
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Online Bill Morell

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2022, 10:20:59 AM »
A package arrived yesterday from Okieair with the much desired double horns. I think I ordered enough that I won't need to order again.
Bill Morell
It wasn't that you could and others couldn't, its that you did and others didn't.
Vietnam 72-73
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Offline BYU

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2022, 11:37:11 AM »
I have also called Brodaks about these horns and according to Debbie they DO NOT make any double horns. Still waiting for Nivarna from Okieair......

They call them strong arm control horns

https://brodak.com/control-line-parts/control-horns/strong-arm-control-horn-2-bearing-3-32.html

Tortured Stunt Flyer Department

Online Bill Morell

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2022, 12:36:25 PM »
They call them strong arm control horns

https://brodak.com/control-line-parts/control-horns/strong-arm-control-horn-2-bearing-3-32.html


Not what I was wanting. Like I said, I called Brodaks and Debbie said that they DON'T make them. All I needed to know.
Bill Morell
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Online Bill Morell

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2022, 12:56:57 PM »
For those that don't know what a double horn is it is a horn with 2 uprights so that a ball link can go between and then be secured with a screw. Other than Okieair I don't know of anyone who commercially makes them.
Bill Morell
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Offline Warren Walker

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2022, 01:20:04 PM »
Bill I have everything you need other than a extra torch and that's cheep.
When you come over to put the paint masks on the Grey Ghost I will show you
how to make horns.

W.W.

Online Bill Morell

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2022, 01:35:41 PM »
Bill I have everything you need other than a extra torch and that's cheep.
When you come over to put the paint masks on the Grey Ghost I will show you
how to make horns.

W.W.

Thanks Warren!
Bill Morell
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Offline Mark Weiss

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2022, 03:52:18 PM »
Hi Brett,

As PAMPA President, I read your comments about the state of CL, especially CL stunt, and appreciate your experience. I have had the opportunity along with a few others of having over 3,000 folks take the handle on a little CL airplane at Triple Tree. I can tell you they all enjoyed their experiences, especially the older folks who grew up at a time when aviation was so new and exciting.

The great majority of our students have been kids. A few have come back to fly again, sometimes with their own airplanes. However, the number who have stuck is only a handful, at most. However, every May when we return, we meet folks (older adults) brought their own airplanes to fly at Triple Tree. Every year we meet these new friends and se them again and again

It is obvious to us that trying to attract kids is a very bad bet. If their parents are not as excited as them and willing to work with them and drive them and stay at a club field, they will never materialize.

What I am trying to focus on are folks our age who grew up when we did. While their participation will not keep CL alive in the distant future, it will grow our ranks. I am trying to get AARP to allow me to write an article about us and to try and have some relive their past. With PAMPA members and District Directors, I believe we can put these folks in touch with our peers who may be willing to give them a hand.

To me, it is worth the effort.


Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2022, 06:39:37 PM »
Hi Brett,

As PAMPA President, I read your comments about the state of CL, especially CL stunt, and appreciate your experience. I have had the opportunity along with a few others of having over 3,000 folks take the handle on a little CL airplane at Triple Tree. I can tell you they all enjoyed their experiences, especially the older folks who grew up at a time when aviation was so new and exciting.

The great majority of our students have been kids. A few have come back to fly again, sometimes with their own airplanes. However, the number who have stuck is only a handful, at most. However, every May when we return, we meet folks (older adults) brought their own airplanes to fly at Triple Tree. Every year we meet these new friends and se them again and again

It is obvious to us that trying to attract kids is a very bad bet. If their parents are not as excited as them and willing to work with them and drive them and stay at a club field, they will never materialize.

What I am trying to focus on are folks our age who grew up when we did. While their participation will not keep CL alive in the distant future, it will grow our ranks. I am trying to get AARP to allow me to write an article about us and to try and have some relive their past. With PAMPA members and District Directors, I believe we can put these folks in touch with our peers who may be willing to give them a hand.

To me, it is worth the effort.

   Don't get me wrong, there is no harm in trying. But we should neither be disappointed, or blaming ourselves or someone else if it doesn't work out.

    Locally, Bill Osborne rand the "learn to fly CL" operation with the City of Alameda, and had thousands of kids go through his class, build a "trainer" - a flying saucer thing with a 1/2A. They mostly enjoyed it and it was very successful for decades. But, for all those kids and their parents, and I doubled-checked this with Heman Lee, not one of them ever flew again after the class was over.

   Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Control horns
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2022, 09:49:13 AM »
Hi Brett,

As PAMPA President, I read your comments about the state of CL, especially CL stunt, and appreciate your experience. I have had the opportunity along with a few others of having over 3,000 folks take the handle on a little CL airplane at Triple Tree. I can tell you they all enjoyed their experiences, especially the older folks who grew up at a time when aviation was so new and exciting.

The great majority of our students have been kids. A few have come back to fly again, sometimes with their own airplanes. However, the number who have stuck is only a handful, at most. However, every May when we return, we meet folks (older adults) brought their own airplanes to fly at Triple Tree. Every year we meet these new friends and se them again and again

It is obvious to us that trying to attract kids is a very bad bet. If their parents are not as excited as them and willing to work with them and drive them and stay at a club field, they will never materialize.

What I am trying to focus on are folks our age who grew up when we did. While their participation will not keep CL alive in the distant future, it will grow our ranks. I am trying to get AARP to allow me to write an article about us and to try and have some relive their past. With PAMPA members and District Directors, I believe we can put these folks in touch with our peers who may be willing to give them a hand.

To me, it is worth the effort.

       I'll agree that aiming recruitment efforts at kids is a waste of time. There is nothing at their level that generates any kind of interest or excitement for any kind of aviation. And I can say this after being part of the KidVenture efforts at Oshkosh for 17 years and had my healthy share of over 45,000 kids on the handle over that time. I have sat at numerous mall shows and have spoken at displays and demonstrations for most of my adult life span (I'm 67 ), and it's just nothing that grabs their imagination at all any more. I have said this many time before here on the forums and in other discussions that we should forget about recruiting kids. And trying to target any older demographics is fruitless because that ship has already sailed. Of there was anyone in my generation or the one behind me that had any interest in the activity they would already be here.

     I still keep up any effort I can to put the hobby out there for people to see, even in just a casual way. I think what it boils down to is that  there is a little something, a little spark, in some of us that drives us and makes us stay with this. I have been a firm believer that you can NOT make anyone want to take part in this activity. It has to already be inside them, whether they know it or not, and once exposed it grabs them like it grabbed the rest of us. This may be maybe one person out of 10 or 20,000 people or more these days. And I'm talking any discipline of the hobby from C/L to F/F to R/C. And that person may be anywhere, so you just have to keep putting it out there and seek exposure where you can get it. In today's world, that target group would be anyone from 30 to 50 years old. The oldest being anyone that may have been exposed to models as a kid, and the youngest being grand children or even great grand children of some one that left behind a grainy black and  white photo of themselves and a model of some kind. If you get the attention and interest of the parent in any activity, you will get the kids as a side benefit, if they are so inclined. The parent has the bank account and the minivan or SUV to get out to a flying field. Then you can hope that the parent sees this as not only something enjoyable for himself but also as a family activity. It's all really just along shot.

    In short, it needs to be presented to the general masses, as much as possible and practical. Today that means exposure on line. YouTube and video in general helps that. I belong to several facebook lists for models and lingered for the most part in the back ground to see who the other members were. There are fair number of young people on these lists and it's seems to me that they have more or less never heard of the AMA, PAMPA, NFFS, or any of the other special interest groups and are just raw meat. They are easily overwhelmed and the process of learning the skills and other knowledge will make their interest short lived if they get too frustrated too soon. That is just the nature of young people these days. Drones took off with them because they are generally pretty easy to fly right out of the box, but there is only so much you can do with them, nothing to really grab their imagination,  and then they get bored and move on. That is a major issue when dealing with the younger masses these days. Getting and holding their attention. But I'll keep trying because, in general I like people, and I like to share what I know with people. It's just a long  process now to find that one person that wil be worth the effort.

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
     
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)


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