Author Topic: Doug's 40 Point Take Off (Read 5708 times)

Eric Viglione · « **on:** July 16, 2009, 10:53:03 AM »

Ok, to be honest, I'm not sure what round this is, but I think its the correct one. Doug said he got two 40s and a 39 I think, so at worst this is a 39 point take off. Looks cool to me. I was just playing with the continuous shutter mode on the camera to see if I could get the whole take off.
EricV

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2009, 12:04:49 PM »

Well,

I guess that i'm just a tougher judge than those at the Nats Eric. It looks to me like Dougie's still at about 3.5 feet at the 1 lap mark. Still a pretty good take off but I wouldn't give 40 or even a 39 for it. Best in my mind is about 35-36 soooo, I guess that no one would ever want me to judge at the Nats!

Jim Pollock

dale gleason · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:19:49 PM »

If it's off the ground before the quarter lap, and I think it is, it is a 40 if I'm holding the pencil, assuming the level laps are correct.
That circle has a pretty good crown in it, probably 8-10 inches, so from the juxtaposition of the plane on Doug's frame (almost 6 feet) that would put the ship's altitude right about 4 foot 6 inches, AGL, really close to the altitude of the plane in that other nice picture of Doug doing something round....but that's not fair, I'd have to have been there..... dg

Eric Viglione · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2009, 03:43:03 PM »

Guys - I didn't mean to start anything, and the camera usually doesn't lie, but the last two shots may fool your eye. Look at Doug and the lines instead of the plane and you will realize he is at near shoulder height at 1 lap, which is where he flew every bottom. I was there, and as TakeOffs go, they don't get any better.

EricV

catdaddy · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2009, 03:59:47 PM »

Quote from: Jim Pollock on July 16, 2009, 12:04:49 PM

Well,

I guess that i'm just a tougher judge than those at the Nats Eric. It looks to me like Dougie's still at about 3.5 feet at the 1 lap mark. Still a pretty good take off but I wouldn't give 40 or even a 39 for it. Best in my mind is about 35-36 soooo, I guess that no one would ever want me to judge at the Nats!

Jim Pollock

Jim,
If you don't think that's a 39 or 40 I'd bet there's a few that wouldn't want you to judge anywhere

billbyles · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2009, 04:18:29 PM »

I am a fan of Doug's and have no doubt that he can do a 40 point takeoff; he may well have done one while this photo was taken, but the overall quality of this takeoff can't be judged from these photos, even as interesting as these are.

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2009, 06:38:38 PM »

Good,

I don't want to judge anyway!

Jim Pollock

dale gleason · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2009, 09:18:25 PM »

Hey! I certainly don't want to start anything, either, just showing a different perspective, that's what judging stunt is all about, no matter how you look at it, it is still subjective, a fact of life in this hobby. And, true, one cannot judge from a series of pix like this, although I think they are very good photography!

respectfully, dg

SteveMoon · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2009, 03:24:09 PM »

I WAS there, I launched the plane. I do believe this is the one
where Doug got his 39.67 avg. score takeoff. It was his second
flight on circle three. I stood and watched the complete rollout
and level laps, and it's as good a takeoff as I have ever seen; ever.
I've seen at least 1000 of Doug's alone. It really was that good.

Later, Steve

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2009, 10:02:48 PM »

Steve,

I'm sure it was a very good take off, but look at the top of your hat in the launch picture. It looks approximately 2.5 feet above the airplane and 1 foot below the horizontal line formed between the L pad and field in the background. Then look again when the airplane completes the one lap picture. It is exactly on that line formed between the L pad and pasture in the background. All this is assuming the camera was held at exactly the same level during all the pictures. That is why I said it appeared Doug was at the 3.5 foot level when he should have passed that point at least at 4 feet and preferably 5 feet. If the camera was being moved up or down then those observations would be bogus.

Jim Pollock

Eric Viglione · « **Reply #10 on:** July 18, 2009, 09:21:56 AM »

Well, There's your problem Jim, the camera was not at the same elevation from start to finish. I was crouched for the starting procedure, and slowly stood up with the plane. Then I just did a collage in PhotoShop.

At the time I took these, I was just playing with the camera features to see if the AF and CS could keep up, not intending to give a perfect judges view or to defend a score given to a manuever. It is what it is, and interesting set of pic's, nothing more.

Nice of you to keep the faith though...

EricV

peabody · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2009, 05:01:58 AM »

I frequently judge.
I believe that I have only awarded ONE 40 for a maneuver....
I always fear that if I pen a 40, the next flier may do something apparently BETTER....
Just my belief...

peabody · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:38:21 AM »

Ty...
A 40 indicated PERFECT....and in a subjectively judged event a judge can aloways wait for something better....a 39 from me is pretty damned good....I've judged Doug Moon and Derek at the Nats....and doubt the either earned much more than a 37? I believe that Howard is the only one to earn better.
My feelings are that nobody's perfect...

EddyR · « **Reply #13 on:** July 20, 2009, 12:47:43 PM »

I agree with Ty that the points should be given if the maneuver is done correct. Waiting around for someone to do it better is not fair to the first guy who does it correct. Actually 40 point take offs are not the uncommon.I think many people don't really know what the rules call for.The big error is not staying on the ground long enough and then coming to level flight to soon.
Ed

Eric Viglione · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:25:46 PM »

Rich - Eddy & Ty are right. What little judging I've done, I've always judged on a point deduction system... If I didn't see an error to deduct for, how can I give anything less than a 40, just because there's no such thing as perfect... doesn't wash with me. We are looking for maneuvers that meet the prescribed description in the manual. If they meet it, and you can't see anything wrong, your still going to give a 39 just on sheer principal? Outrageous! If you already have your mind made up that Doug or Derek can't do better than a 37, why show up and don't you just mail in the score sheets? Eeeek!

EricV

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #15 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:36:15 PM »

Thats the same logic that prevents an intermidiate pilot from scoring above a 27 or 28 on a manuever, and its just NOT right!

peabody · « **Reply #16 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:14:15 PM »

Eric...pleas r-read...I am not "bracketing" Doug or Derek at all....I think I grade fairly and properly...and I also feel that a 40 has to be perfect.Period. I haven't seen one....very few maneuvers are even close to perfect....I'm not a fan of "point deduction, either...it just doesn't work for me...

Tom Rounds · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:45:04 PM »

Its easy to understand why someone would not want to be a judge. Its a thankless job. Hats off to the guys that do it!

Mike Palko · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:46:12 PM »

This is an interesting conversation. If you ask me leaving room for a better maneuver is always a good idea. If you were the guy flying the true 40 point takeoff when the guy previous to you did a 38 or 39 and got scored 40 you would want the judge to score him a 38 or 39, not the 40 points you deserve. So what would the judge do at that point? And, it doesn't matter if you score Doug or anyone a 35 or 40. As long as your point scale is consistant across the board (track with other judges). Some judges are high others are low. I bet some never come close to 40 points while others routinely give away high 30's. I couldn't tell the difference between a 38, 39 or 40 point takeoff myself, but then again I don't judge big events. In the end it is a subjective event, and I am thankful people volunteer to judge at all because of things like this!

Mike

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:33:20 PM »

My new desktop

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2009, 04:35:27 PM »

Quote from: SteveMoon on July 17, 2009, 03:24:09 PM

I WAS there, I launched the plane. I do believe this is the one
where Doug got his 39.67 avg. score takeoff. It was his second
flight on circle three. I stood and watched the complete rollout
and level laps, and it's as good a takeoff as I have ever seen; ever.
I've seen at least 1000 of Doug's alone. It really was that good.

Later, Steve

If Steve says it was that good. It was. Steve is real hard ass.

peabody · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2009, 05:02:42 PM »

Plus, Doug was flying MY aeroplane!!!!

Bill Little · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2009, 10:49:55 AM »

Quote from: Mark Scarborough on July 20, 2009, 01:36:15 PM

Thats the same logic that prevents an intermidiate pilot from scoring above a 27 or 28 on a manuever, and its just NOT right!

I agree, Mark. I have seen the problem where a *range* of points are awarded for each class. That is totally against all that I believe judging is about. I a beginner does a 38 point take off, he should get it, just like the Expert. And that CAN happen, but in some *circles*, it won't be done simply because the pilot is a *Beginner*...........

Yes, I have judged, but I try NOT to AT ALL COSTS. I enjoy building and flying, not judging. When I have judged, I find it HAS helped me in my flying, but since I cannot practice, which is the REAL key to gettnig better, it is almost a moot exercise. I played football for over 15 years, almost making the NFL, then spent over 30 years coaching for a living. I do not referee games, that is completely diffferent. I was a participant, and refereeing is not the same.

Mongo

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:06:33 PM »

A man after my own heart, avoids judging at all opportunities.
Way to go Big Bear!

Jim Pollock

phil c · « **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2009, 10:30:07 AM »

Quote from: Eric Viglione on July 16, 2009, 10:53:03 AM

Ok, to be honest, I'm not sure what round this is, but I think its the correct one. Doug said he got two 40s and a 39 I think, so at worst this is a 39 point take off. Looks cool to me. I was just playing with the continuous shutter mode on the camera to see if I could get the whole take off.
EricV

Getting back on topic Eric, what camera are you using? For much the same purpose, I finally settled on a Casio EX FH20. It'll take up to 40 5mpixel frames in a second or 30 9 mpix frames/sec. It actually will go up to 1000 frames about 200x120 in very bright light. I find 15 frames or so works the best. Enough to almost guarantee a good shot, and not so many to look through to find the best one. It works great for takeoffs and flight shots. You can even take a shot of a loop and get the plane about every 2 ft.

Eric Viglione · « **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2009, 12:22:50 PM »

Thanks Phil!

I'm using a Pentax K10D Digital SLR. That sequence was taken with an inexpensive 70-210 4-5.6 zoom because I got tired of hauling around the "beast" earlier in the week. (a 80-200 f2.8 that weighs a ton)

I'm an old Pentax hold out since I used to use their medium format gear (645, 6X7) and really liked their glass.
The shots are taken in RAW mode, which I think will only do like 5 frames per second. I could have gone down to a small Jpg and really cranked out a higher FPS, but I'd rather have the digital "darkroom" control of RAW if and when I need it, so I just leave the camera in RAW mode all the time.

The K10D has a button on the side for "RAW + JPG" and it will make both pic types for every shutter release, and I sometimes hit that button when I know I'll need to email out a photo real quick and might not have time to post process RAW files right away.

That said, the photo's in the collage I posted really aren't very good action shots because I had left the camera at ASA100, which didn't yield the best shutter speeds, I only got away with it because I was panning with the plane...

EricV

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2009, 04:13:57 PM »

Quote from: peabody on July 20, 2009, 05:02:42 PM

Plus, Doug was flying MY aeroplane!!!!

No, Rich. If Doug was flying YOUR aeroplane, he'd still be pouring zippo fuel into it trying to get a start!

Joey Mathison 9806 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2009, 09:39:36 PM »

i wish i had brought my camera steve when i left the lee's inn on sunday the beer bush was overflowing next time you guys will have to use a over flow bush.

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2009, 10:13:15 PM »

Quote from: Joey Mathison 9806 on July 23, 2009, 09:39:36 PM

i wish i had brought my camera steve when i left the lee's inn on sunday the beer bush was overflowing next time you guys will have to use a over flow bush.

I wonder if all the bottles will be there when we come back!

Doug Moon · « **Reply #29 on:** July 23, 2009, 10:40:29 PM »

I think that group of photos is really cool. That TO was a good one for sure. I had good TOs all week. Wing gear make it so easy if you ask me.

Thanks Eric for posting it.

The beer tree was awesome. I bet they will be there next time for sure!!

Brad that desktop is cool. I was very sorry to read about your dog.

Bradley Walker · « **Reply #30 on:** July 24, 2009, 11:01:10 AM »

You should post the pics of your new killer on the paint stand.

RandySmith · « **Reply #31 on:** July 24, 2009, 03:41:13 PM »

Quote from: Doug Moon on July 23, 2009, 10:40:29 PM

I think that group of photos is really cool. That TO was a good one for sure. I had good TOs all week. Wing gear make it so easy if you ask me.

Thanks Eric for posting it.

Hi Doug

Your take offs and landing were excellent.
I also got several 40 pointers on T.O. and landings, with a carbon fuse mount gear, it really isn't as much what type but where it is located, most people locate the CF fuse gears too far forward, they sometimes porpoise located there.
Just like wing gear will do if you have them too far forward. one thing a CF fuse gear will do better is each leg will flex some to takeout the shock, but will not bend backwards like wing gear does, both work very well as long as they are the right stiffness and in the right location...you can make either good or terrible.
I enjoyed seeing you at the NATs again, and had much fun, hope to see you back next year

Regards
Randy

Leo Mehl · « **Reply #32 on:** July 30, 2009, 07:51:58 PM »

Quote from: Eric Viglione on July 16, 2009, 10:53:03 AM

Ok, to be honest, I'm not sure what round this is, but I think its the correct one. Doug said he got two 40s and a 39 I think, so at worst this is a 39 point take off. Looks cool to me. I was just playing with the continuous shutter mode on the camera to see if I could get the whole take off.
EricV

Too bad Kieth Varley wasn't judging! he would have probably gotten a 45!