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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Avaiojet on October 03, 2014, 02:47:54 PM
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I have this wing, has a Ringmaster type TE that is swept forward.
Two flap hornes are needed.
I'd like to see how others set up their pushrod to the flap hornes. I'm hoping for photos.
Thanks in advance.
Charles
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Search on "lucky box". You should find useful articles.
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Search on "lucky box". You should find useful articles.
Tim,
I have some "lucky boxes"
Is this the use for them?
You would think they would wear inside and get loose or sloppy?
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The last time I built a plane with a lucky box, the lucky box did not wear out.
Of course, I was still flying beginner, and crashing all the time...
If wear is a concern, then consider making them out of 1/32" phenolic, epoxy-glass, or aluminum.
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Tim,
Thanks for that reply.
I was really considering two control horns.
With two pushrods off the bellcrank.
I'll set it up and see how it reacts.
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Tim,
Thanks for that reply.
I was really considering two control horns.
With two pushrods off the bellcrank.
I'll set it up and see how it reacts.
The problem with that is that, because the bellcrank and the flap horns operate in different planes, the flaps won't be actuated quite the same. This will result in a bit of rolling with flap movement.
It may not matter -- particularly because you can use the excuse that I used several years ago, which is you won't fly well enough to notice! But it won't be "right".
There's fancy ways to do linkages with idler bellcranks and whatnot -- but that adds complexity, more oddball geometry, and weight. Which is probably why the lucky box was invented.
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I would like to know more about those other possibilities?
Charles
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Make an X-crank with two output arms on opposite sides. Each side drives one flap. In my opinion the "lucky box" might work for slight misalignment, but not on the order of a Ringmaster.
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Make an X-crank with two output arms on opposite sides. Each side drives one flap. In my opinion the "lucky box" might work for slight misalignment, but not on the order of a Ringmaster.
Paul,
Thanks for the reply.
I thought about the "X" bellcrank, was not sure if I have the room and I'd be concerned with the lead outs getting in the way. Plus, one horn would have to be "under" and I don't have the room in the underbelly. At least I don't think I do?
I never was one to install my bellcranks with the pivit arm facing in.
Thanks again for the reply.
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Hi Charles,
The Crossfire from Bob Hunt has a swept forward TE, so maybe someone that has built one, or has the plans can answer this for you. It seems like many have been built and the plans are available. I still have a Ringmaster Imperial kit to build, and it shows a bent flap horn and that is supposed to do the trick, but that makes very little sense to me.
Keith R
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Two flap hornes are needed.
Charles
Get a look at the Bob Palmer Thunderbird differential flap system and go from there.
It uses a simple 'Y' shaped pushrod.
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Charles if you will go to the 'classic' section here and look at my Sterling Spitfire posts you'll find a photo of the method I use for such horns. This gives exact replication of movement on both sides and holds up as well as any other typical hookup. Keep the fork in close to the horns so nothing has space to flex.
Dave
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David,
I followed a bit of that build, I actually had that Spitfire kit but elected to sell it on ebay.
Yes, some of the wood was really heavy and hard.
You did a great job with that model.
I was going to ask you where you purchased the wheels? And what size they were.
I see your flap setup. I like that epoxy idea around the horn wire, I will copy that.
I wanted to use Tom Morris ball ends, which adds a bit of complexity to my system.
Chris,
I actually built the Palmer T-Bird, but it was so long ago I can't remember the linkage. n~
Thanks for the replies
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Charles I got those wheels from the Tom Morris road show. Really light and narrow. 2 1/4" I think. Your ball links could be set up about the same way. If you are using them for adjustment reasons you could hook up the flaps like this ( without links) and the rear pushrod with the links and still get the adjustment capability between flaps and elevator. Not much reason to adjust the forward rod.
Dave
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Charles I got those wheels from the Tom Morris road show. Really light and narrow. 2 1/4" I think. Your ball links could be set up about the same way. If you are using them for adjustment reasons you could hook up the flaps like this ( without links) and the rear pushrod with the links and still get the adjustment capability between flaps and elevator. Not much reason to adjust the forward rod.
Dave
Dave,
I'm not sure how to set the two ball links up on one rod? Wire and solder? That's why I was going to use two rods off the ballceank, one under the other and both with ball links.
Your setup, what did you have under the cloth and epoxy, to keep it off the horn wire?
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The wire turns in brass tubing under the cloth. You 'd still have to keep the ball links set up on a fork close to the horn lest flexing ruin the whole project. That and accumulated flex and slop is exactly why I'd nix the double rod concept. I'm afraid this is one of those things being way over thought for what is needed. I wouldn't make it any more complicated than it has to be. In practice you'll need less than 30 degrees of travel and equal deflection. I would use the most simple way to that end.
Dave
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On a Ringmaster or other similar sport ships, a double horn arrangement MAY be suitable. But, it is advisable to not use a double horn arrangement. As already has been suggested, unless special provisions are made, there will be asymmetric flap deflection due to the position of the bellcrank and the horns. But the main problem with split horns is that there will be too much flex between the horns and will result in trim problems that will be almost impossible to adjust as the loads on one flap are different than on the other during the maneuvers so the flaps will deflect/twist in an unbalanced manner. The airplane will tend to roll in ways during the pattern that just cannot be trimmed to fix. I would never use a split horn arrangement on a model built for competition stunt.
Lucky boxes solve the problem here.
Also, unless there is a large amount of hinge line sweep and/or dihedral, it is surprising that a single horn will suffice and will operate quite satisfactorily without any binding during the flap movement. My Rabe Bearcat has performed well for a few years with a single flap horn. The design has about 5 degrees of dihedral and the flaps are swept forward about 2 degrees. There is a limit for how much angular difference there can be in the hinge line angle. Based on what I just found on a scale application where there is 12 degrees dihedral in the horizontal tail, a lucky box was required. I would estimate that the angular difference in hinge lines for this limit before a lucky box is required would be around 6 to 8 degrees combined dihedral/hinge line sweep.
If the right material is used for the lucky boxes, wear will not be a problem. There is not that much relative motion between the horn and the lucky box material.
Keith
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Dave.
I think you're right, overthinking can create more issues than the project is worth. Ask me how I know?
I did notice, that the space between the horn closes when the horns are moved forward. Considerable.
I'm using 1/8" wire, not sure if 3/32 is preferred?
I'm using a flap horn with 1" height on the flaps, down to .75" in height on the flap horn to .75" in height on the elevator horn. Fixed with no adjustment. Three in bellcrank.
I think I have a solution to having this operate with ball links on all ends, six total when using two bellcrank rods.
A bit crowded on the two flap horns, but nothing touches with the 3/4" bellcrank movement in both directions.
The extra grams will pronably be worth the smoothness over a period of time?
Kieth,
Thanks for the reply.
I just saw your reply after I posted this for Dave.
I would have to check the angle of the TE.
I'll get a photo of my progress. Take a few minutes.
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OK, here's what I currently have.
Angle is 20 degrees, TE has 10 degrees on each side.
Photo tells most of the story.
Yellow tape is temporary. Rods will be replaced with CF rods.
Flaps in up or down position are the same, that is, I have the same movement and degrees in both flaps. One does not move more than the other through the complete cycle, forward and aft.
As I said, I only have .75" forward and aft movement on the 3" bellcrank..
Cramped because the fuselage isn't wide in that area but nothing touches.
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The horns should work OK. Still like to see one single source pushrod driving both horns though. Of course lucky boxes would be fine too-use them for the flaps on my take-apart airplanes with no issues.
Dave
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The horns should work OK. Still like to see one single source pushrod driving both horns though. Of course lucky boxes would be fine too-use them for the flaps on my take-apart airplanes with no issues.
Dave
Dave,
I would like one pushrod also. It's not rulled out.
I thought I had "lucky boxes." What I have is hard wood flap ends. If that's what you call them?
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They may be if slotted to allow the horn wire to move laterally a little as required. I make mine from layered plywood and epoxy.
Dave
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I think "Lucky Boxes" are by far the best solution for this kind of problem. I Use them often and assemble the boxes separate from the flap using 1/16 thick G-10 material, with 1/8 inch plywood about 3/16 inch wide on each side of the horn area (for 1/8 inch wire horns), then balsa sheet layered on each of the G10 to make up the thickness of the flap. Inset and glue into the flap with epoxy and sand both sides to match the flap.
Even with 10 degrees forward slope on the trailing edge you only need about 3/32 clearance on each side of the horn wire to more than accomodate the horn movement, (Actually less than this but I use 3/32 to also allow for a tad of misalignment).
The G10 gives less friction than plywood and is more resistant to wear. They work slick and I've never seen one fail.
This is far less complicated than a double horn arrangement, especially with two pushrods (not a good idea at all in my opinion)
Randy Cuberly
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Randy,
Thanks for the reply and info.
G-10 is fiberglass sheet.
.060 at 8.00 for a 12 x 12.
Is this how you buy it?
From your explanation of material, I'd have to have a flap at least .675" thick
I'm guessing I have to cut a "straight" area at my TE for a normal horn and bent wire setup. Obviously?
I'll search for a photo of a lucky box.
Photo anyone?
P.S.
I did find this.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,22743.0.html
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Lucky boxes on Desperado...
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Lucky boxes on Desperado...
Dave,
Thanks for that photo.
Your workmanship is nice. I can tell you pay attention to detail.
Is the TE swept forward on your model?
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No Charles it's straight. The lucky boxes are just to allow the flaps to be plugged in during assembly since the horn is mounted in the fuse.
Dave
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No Charles it's straight. The lucky boxes are just to allow the flaps to be plugged in during assembly since the horn is mounted in the fuse.
Dave
Dave,
Take apart! I seen Marcus' build on his take apart.
That is really a tremendous amount of work. Are there many modelers building take apart stunt ships?
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I would guess mostly those thinking WCs!!!
Dave
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In my opinion the "lucky box" might work for slight misalignment, but not on the order of a Ringmaster.
Are we talking about the same mechanism? The application I was talking about was a V tail with a dihedral angle of around 40 degrees. The lucky boxes were built with plain old 1/32" plywood, and they worked great.
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Are we talking about the same mechanism? The application I was talking about was a V tail with a dihedral angle of around 40 degrees. The lucky boxes were built with plain old 1/32" plywood, and they worked great.
I built a Swee Pea from S. Calhoun Smith plans (Mechanics Illustrated June 1948) with the V-tail that has 40 degrees dihedral on each side of the stabilizer. One control horn, lucky boxes, and the controls are absolutely free and no more "slop" than with a regular horn/pushrod set up.
Keith
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Back in '08 I built a little 1/2A profile scale A-26 (Pat King design) which has a somewhat v-dihedral'd stab/elev. Completely ignorant of how to make this work - despite more than 60 years of modeling at the time - I asked Keith how to do it. He tutored me on "Lucky Boxes", which I then ordered from RSM (plywood pieces). Bingo! No hassle...no binding...worked very well.
By the way, Keith's 'Swee Pea' is a work of art. A bit small for OTS, it might become a good Scale entry.
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Randy,
Thanks for the reply and info.
G-10 is fiberglass sheet.
.060 at 8.00 for a 12 x 12.
Is this how you buy it?
From your explanation of material, I'd have to have a flap at least .675" thick
I'm guessing I have to cut a "straight" area at my TE for a normal horn and bent wire setup. Obviously?
I'll search for a photo of a lucky box.
Photo anyone?
P.S.
I did find this.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,22743.0.html
Charles,
NO! .060 + .060 + .125 = .245 ( less than 1/4 inch) + .031 + .031 = .307 (less than 5/16). In this case use two pieces of 3/32 balsa and sand it flush on both sides of the flap. (it's just filler).
If you're using 3/32 wire (which I don't recommend) then you use 3/32 plywood and you have:
.060 + .060 + .094 = .214 (less than 1/4 inch again) +.031 +.031 = .276 (less than 5/16 again) Fill this the same way and sand it flush.
For flaps on stunters I typically use 5/16 thick flaps or sometimes 3/8. Thin flaps flex and cause a plethora of trim problems.
Randy Cuberly
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Charlie,
if you are stuck on using 2 horns then perhaps you could not drive them back from the bell crank as it can get very cramped.
Instead have may have one long drive rod from bell crank to tail and AFT of flap hinge line make a take off point from that rod for the 'Y' shaped twin drive rod forward to the flap horns.
In other words the flap drive rods drive forwards to the horns and not backwards.
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Well, to put the matter of two hornes to rest.
First I would like to thank everyone for their replies, advice and interest.
Here's what I decided and why.
I decided on two CF pushrods and ball links on all ends.
Few reasons for this. The main reason is I didn't have material to make lucky boxes and I did want to close the wing up today.
Another reason is I have no experience with lucky boxes.
I do however, have some experience with CF pushrods and ball links.
Yes, setting this up killed me. I had differential movement no matter how I adjusted these horns.
I finally realized that both horns had to be the "exact" height and the two pushrods "exactly" the same length.
Also, the bolt on the bellcrank arm had to be dead center. I moved the bellcrank three times.
I tweeked the height of the horns by bending them a tad till both horn rods were perfect in their travel.
I did get it done and I'm really happy with how they operate, really smooth.
Thanks again to all those modelers that replied.
You know I appreciate it.
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That looks like a lot of unnecessary weight.
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That looks like a lot of unnecessary weight.
The rest of the model is light.
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I know it's far too late for this question... But why are we putting flaps on a ringmaster?
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That looks like a lot of unnecessary weight.
Dick,
I just weighed the wing.
10.4 oz. 54" in span. Totally framed, only needs covering. Still have some shaping to do to the LE and cut down the center sheeting. Might loose a .5 oz there.
CF rods are light, only extra HDWE is the extra CF rod, and a bit more horn rod.
Gotta decide if the gear will be in the fuse or wing. Heavier if I go with gear in the wing.
Has to be gear someplace.
There's another Thread where I have the weights of the parts.
Sean,
Thanks for the reply.
It's not a Ringmaster. It's my own design, scratch built.
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K gotcha
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So, another thread from Chuck asking for advice then poo pooing on everyone's suggestions and doing the job some retarded way that doesn't work as well and weighs twice as much. Typical.
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So, another thread from Chuck asking for advice then poo pooing on everyone's suggestions and doing the job some retarded way that doesn't work as well and weighs twice as much. Typical.
Yeah,
Total waste of time. You'd think we would learn. I actually thought for a few minutes we were accomplishing something...Silly Me!
Last time for me!
Randy C.
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So where does the elevator pushrod go when the twin flap horns 'lock horns' together?
Does it travel underneath the wing?
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The rest of the model is light.
Well if it isn't you can always drill some holes.....
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Clint,
Are U on some kind of crusade or what.? Give it a rest. If U don't agree just.....shutup
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So where does the elevator pushrod go when the twin flap horns 'lock horns' together?
Does it travel underneath the wing?
Chris,
Elevator horn ball link attaches to the right side of the right horn under the flap ball link. I had it in place. Touches nothing in it's movement.
Now for those that believe you've been Poo Pooed.
If you read my original Post, you can clearly see my thoughts were with "Two Pushrods."
Lucky boxes. I explained I know nothing about them and that's why I decided to not use them. Plus, they would have offered friction then possibly play over a period of time. AND they cannot be serviced.
I can service both those horns and HDWE from removal of the canopy if I elect to have a removable canopy.
Sure, there were many great suggestions and I said I appreciate the offerings.
So, again, thank you for your suggestions and replies, but I feel I made the best decision for this model and my experience.
Remember, I said I have no experience with lucky boxes.
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Chris,
Elevator horn ball link attaches to the right side of the right horn under the flap ball link. I had it in place. Touches nothing in it's movement.
Now for those that believe you've been Poo Pooed.
If you read my original Post, you can clearly see my thoughts were with "Two Pushrods."
Lucky boxes. I explained I know nothing about them and that's why I decided to not use them. Plus, they would have offered friction then possibly play over a period of time. AND they cannot be serviced.
I can service both those horns and HDWE from removal of the canopy if I elect to have a removable canopy.
Sure, there were many great suggestions and I said I appreciate the offerings.
So, again, thank you for your suggestions and replies, but I feel I made the best decision for this model and my experience.
Remember, I said I have no experience with lucky boxes.
So in other words, you never had any intention of doing this any other way, you just wanted to show us all how it's done in your world? People took the time and trouble to provide the information that will help your project, if you just wanted to show off, why ask for suggestions?
Several of the best builders and fliers in the country have pointed out in detail how to do this, and there are numerous other threads with even further detail. Makes me wonder about your reading comprehension skills. I can't believe you are really worried about friction and wear and "servicing the lucky boxes." This model will never be finished, so why worry about what will never happen?
And so it goes.
Dan McEntee
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Are U on some kind of crusade or what.? Give it a rest. If U don't agree just.....shutup
Nice. Some guy - Charles - repeatedly jerks people around, takes advantage of them, admits he is jerking everybody around, and if anyone objects, they have no right to object whatsoever. Interesting sense of values you have there. Next I am sure you will be running back to Sparky or the other mods for protection from all those mean people on the internet.
Brett
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So in other words, you never had any intention of doing this any other way, you just wanted to show us all how it's done in your world? People took the time and trouble to provide the information that will help your project, if you just wanted to show off, why ask for suggestions?
The best part is that this idea, while sound enough, has a fatal flaw in the implementation that will become evident at some point. But since the internet White Knights decided we can't argue with Charles, I guess he will find out the hard way later - in the unlikely event he ever completes this and tried to fly it.
Brett
p.s. the fatal flaw IS NOT the fact that he put the ball links on the wrong side of one of the horns. Although that is a flaw, too, that made it much more difficult than it would otherwise have been. That's why the uprights are bent strangely.
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The best part is that this idea, while sound enough, has a fatal flaw in the implementation that will become evident at some point. But since the internet White Knights decided we can't argue with Charles, I guess he will find out the hard way later - in the unlikely event he ever completes this and tried to fly it.
Brett
p.s. the fatal flaw IS NOT the fact that he put the ball links on the wrong side of one of the horns. Although that is a flaw, too, that made it much more difficult than it would otherwise have been. That's why the uprights are bent strangely.
Quite right Brett, but I wouldn't tell him about it for a hundred dollars!! LL~ LL~ LL~
Randy C.
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Clint,
Are U on some kind of crusade or what.? Give it a rest. If U don't agree just.....shutup
As for you Andrew...don't you realize comments like yours just further facilitate this Crapola!!!
I think you're probably worse than Charlie Poo!
Randy C.
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p.s. the fatal flaw IS NOT the fact that he put the ball links on the wrong side of one of the horns. Although that is a flaw, too, that made it much more difficult than it would otherwise have been. That's why the uprights are bent strangely.
Another fatal flaw with this whole arrangement is that there will be an extreme amount of flexure from one flap deflection to the other. On a serious stunt ship, that will cause trim problems that are virtually impossible to correct. For a sport ship and a pilot who does not know much about flying a decent pattern, all that flap flexure probably will not make much difference, but then why go to the trouble to put flaps on the thing in the first place.
Keith
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No,
I won't be reporting any of this pathetic behavior from the "usual suspects" that gave us Stunt Anger.
Nor will I delete any more Threads.
Biggest mistake I made was "cleaning up" Threads with obvious Posts from my followers that are an embarrassment to what modeling has always stood for. This is just a small example.
Now there are many "new members" in Robert's Forum and they will see for themselves who participates and who represents next to nothing.
I'm no longer sure if any of you ever had a real handle as to what this hobby is all about?
And if you ever did, what happened along the road of life, for you to end up behaving like mean jealous schoolyard children?
I hope reading the likes of these tasteless replies doesn’t discourage others from participating in one form or another.
In actuaity, these guys only do this to me. LL~
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"Biggest mistake I made was "cleaning up" Threads with obvious Posts from my followers that are an embarrassment to what modeling has always stood for. This is just a small example."
This quote says quite a bit. The fact that you think you have followers and that makes you some sort of leader? Some sort of innovator? I think you are giving yourself way too much credit.
If I want to learn how to win the Indy 500, I'm going to go talk to Roger Penske, AJ Foyt, Chip Gannassi, Al Unser, Sr. and Jr., People that have won it before, not the local gadfly that talks like he knows what he is doing.
No one here has been mean, just pointing out what is painfully obvious. Want to get some respect? Earn it. Finish a model, take it to the field, and put it through a pattern, and bring it back home in one piece. You are not fooling anyone with the fake attempt at shaming other people. We know who everyone else is in the thread, but you still won't tell us who you are, which is one of the forum rules.
Again, finish a model, take it to the field, put it through a pattern and bring it back home in one piece.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I would have been easier to use lucky boxes like everyone does and lighter as well.
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I would have been easier to use lucky boxes like everyone does and lighter as well.
And even a plywood-walled lucky box will work well and last a long time.
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And even a plywood-walled lucky box will work well and last a long time.
Tim,
Gotta remember I don't know that.
Also. replies came from individuals I don't trust. The same individuals that have bullied me for four years.
Seems they are still doing it.
As for lucky boxes. They are not liked by everyone.
Metal against wood?
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,22743.0.html
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Tim,
Gotta remember I don't know that.
As for lucky boxes. They are not liked by everyone.
Metal against wood?
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,22743.0.html
There are a lot of things you do not know and then you do not listen when something is explained to you. Then you come up with the statement that lucky boxes "are not liked by everyone" and then give a reference to supposedly back up your statement. One person said that the lucky boxes he tried did not hold up because as he clearly explained, he used the wrong material.
Simply stated -- lucky boxes work regardless of what you say or try to claim. They will give considerable service as in hundreds of flights if the proper materials are used. I hope your new followers/readers do not do what you showed as that is NOT the way to actuate flaps with a hinge line that is swept or has dihedral or a combination of the two. This is particularly true as other solutions are simpler, lighter and will result in more satisfactory performance.
Keith
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Keep it up guys and you are going to get your hands slapped. As one individual told me one time he doesn't mind helping or giving advice, but when they ignore it, he stops helping or advising.
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While Charles method is not the way everyone would do it (I would use lucky boxes) this is how he has chosen to do it against everyone advise. No big deal! So if someone chooses not to take your advice there is no need to get bent out of shape or fret over it. Let it go and move on.
I know that some of these posts are baiting posts and some are from the lack of experience and the only way to get experience is by doing.
I know this from experience as some of my methods have been in question but they work for me and now with video I can show it instead of type it.
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Robert,
These guys bring this stuff on themselve and enjoy it. S?P
Yes, I can and have taken advice and used it.
Lucky boxes? I'm still not convinced because of the wearing down of the wood against metal.
I did rethink this setup and there is a better way.
I believe I can do this with one horn and one pushrod without using lucky boxes.
No Posts on that? Like they don't know?
Robert,
Still doesn't change the fact, that when these guys get going and behave like this, others back off and don't participate.
These kind of comments are nipping away at the quality of your Forum.
And they have for years and still get away with it.
Obviously they aren't my friends.
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mply stated -- lucky boxes work regardless of what you say or try to claim. They will give considerable service as in hundreds of flights if the proper materials are used. I hope your new followers/readers do not do what you showed as that is NOT the way to actuate flaps with a hinge line that is swept or has dihedral or a combination of the two. This is particularly true as other solutions are simpler, lighter and will result in more satisfactory performance.
[/qiote]
Keith,
I do agree with some of this.
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Says You! You just can't see the forrest for the trees.
I'll say it again, finish a model, take it to the field, put up a pattern, bring the model home in one piece.
Nothing hurtful or mean spirited in that unless you put it there. Doing things your own way to make yourself happy is one thing. Do it and prove us all wrong, we can take it. The thing is, we have all made the mistakes and learned from them, you seem to refuse to learn from other's experience. It's all in your mind that it some how brings down the forum. Most of us all know each other, and meet each other at events across the country. That part is all in your mind and an attempt to skirt the issue.
Finish this airplane, or any of the 6 or 8 you have threads going on all across the whole forum, bring it to the field, put up a pattern, and bring the model home in one piece. A simple challenge that will prove or disprove a lot.
Put the rest of this model in your "Klingon Cloak Mode" and don't bring it out again until it's finished, then take it to the field, put up a pattern, and bring it home in one piece again.
Time will tell,
Dan McEntee
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Chris,
Elevator horn ball link attaches to the right side of the right horn under the flap ball link. I had it in place. Touches nothing in it's movement.
The place that you showed it before was on the LEFT side of the right hand horn (or in between the two flap horns) - hence me thinking of intense competition for space was going on there!
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The place that you showed it before was on the LEFT side of the right hand horn (or in between the two flap horns) - hence me thinking of intense competition for space was going on there!
Chris,
Yes, you are correct. But I moved it to the outside because there's more room there. Either way there was no interference with movement.
I know these guys are right, so I'm going to re-think this.
Dick was right also about the two control horns being a bit unnecessary and adding weight. I can agree with that.
I do however, like the idea of going a different route but not using lucky boxes.
Flatening the TE for a bit and having horn wire bent 90 degrees to the TE angle, should be the fix?
No one mentioned this?
I'll have one horn, a third of the horn wire I have now and only one pushrod. No lucky boxes.
I figered this out myself.
So, why didn't anyone else bring this method to my attention?
Chris, thanks for being kind and not losing your patience with me. ;D
BTW.
Suggestions on horn height?
I mentioned that I'm using 1" and .75" on the flap horn and .75" on the elevartor. No comments on that?
Am I OK with that?
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Chris,
Yes, you are correct. But I moved it to the outside because there's more room there. Either way there was no interference with movement.
I know these guys are right, so I'm going to re-think this.
Dick was right also about the two control horns being a bit unnecessary and adding weight. I can agree with that.
I do however, like the idea of going a different route but not using lucky boxes.
Flatening the TE for a bit and having horn wire bent 90 degrees to the TE angle, should be the fix?
No one mentioned this?
I'll have one horn, a third of the horn wire I have now and only one pushrod. No lucky boxes.
I figered this out myself.
So, why didn't anyone else bring this method to my attention?
Chris, thanks for being kind and not losing your patience with me. ;D
BTW.
Suggestions on horn height?
I mentioned that I'm using 1" and .75" on the flap horn and .75" on the elevartor. No comments on that?
Am I OK with that?
Charles if you a worried about lucky box strength you can use rectangle brass tubing 1/8 x 3/8 or 3/32 x 3/8 and in bed it into the flaps. It doesn't take much slop side to side. I use 1.25 and 1 inch horns with 3/4 at the bell crank
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Robert,
Thanks for that.
I made this sketch.
I see no reason why this won't solve all problems.
I just have to cut the back of the TE flat a bit from horn wire bend to bend.
Ever see it done this way?
Thanks for the reply.
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Robert,
Thanks for that.
I made this sketch.
I see no reason why this won't solve all problems.
I just have to cut the back of the TE flat a bit from horn wire bend to bend.
Ever see it done this way?
Thanks for the reply.
You will still need lucky boxes
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You would still need lucky boxes for that method, no matter how much of the trailing edge you cut off. The difference is in the angle between the two trailing edges. There have been MANY people here trying to get you to see what you need to do. You are literally ASKING us to tell you what to do and you have been told already. I take EXTREME offense that you would think that the people on this forum would tell you something that would not work, or would cause you problems on purpose, even the ones you call your "enemies." No one is bullying you here, just frustrated and fed up with your self serving attitude and bull headedness.
What you have drawn will work, but you will still need lucky boxes. Bending the wire horns at that angle will not let the flaps work without binding at neutral.
Read the last line slowly! Over and over if necessary. Re read the post that was made about over thinking the situation. Then read it again slowly. All the answers are in this thread. Tons more in the archive and the pluses and minuses of using swept forward trailing edges.
All you gotta do is READ!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Charles,
from the pic you just posted, the rods going into the flaps will not move linear. it would be a radial path up and down. it may not be much depending on the total travel and length of rod , and yadda yadda, but would always be enough to bind the surfaces when moved with one joiner
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Robert,
Thanks for that.
I made this sketch.
I see no reason why this won't solve all problems.
I just have to cut the back of the TE flat a bit from horn wire bend to bend.
Ever see it done this way?
Thanks for the reply.
No, because it will not work. That is why nobody mentioned it before.
Now, if you go to a lucky box arrangement, it will take a bit of understanding to make the lucky boxes work given the hinge lines and the needed position of the single control horn relative to the lucky boxes. It would need to located differently than you show.
You have chosen not to understand the idea behind the lucky boxes and it has been explained to you to materials that will work. Bare untreated wood surfaces moving against the control horn wire is not a good thing. There are many satisfactory solutions, many which have been explained to you.
Yes, you can be "commended" for showing us how you do something. However, in this case what you have shown is not the best solution to a swept flap hinge line. You should not present your solution for your many followers and any newcomers or less experienced builders as a satisfactory solution to the problem. But again, if this is a "sport" model, not intended for serious competition, what you have done will be satisfactory if you are not demanding for peak performance in the stunt pattern. But if that is the case, there is little to be gained by putting flaps on a sport model as you have done for non serious stunt patterns, unless one just wants to have a model of mediocre performance and there is no concern for the extra weight and complexity of adding flaps.
I think you are going to be unpleasantly surprised about how much flex there will be between the two flaps once you get the thing assembled. If you can live with that much flex, fine. It does you no good for the performance of the model. Just be aware that you were alerted to the problem after you asked about how to deal with a swept flap hinge line.
And lucky boxes are a satisfactory solution if the proper materials are used regardless how little you know or understand about them.
Keith
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Says You! You just can't see the forrest for the trees.
I'll say it again, finish a model, take it to the field, put up a pattern, bring the model home in one piece.
Nothing hurtful or mean spirited in that unless you put it there. Doing things your own way to make yourself happy is one thing. Do it and prove us all wrong, we can take it. The thing is, we have all made the mistakes and learned from them, you seem to refuse to learn from other's experience. It's all in your mind that it some how brings down the forum. Most of us all know each other, and meet each other at events across the country. That part is all in your mind and an attempt to skirt the issue.
Finish this airplane, or any of the 6 or 8 you have threads going on all across the whole forum, bring it to the field, put up a pattern, and bring the model home in one piece. A simple challenge that will prove or disprove a lot.
Put the rest of this model in your "Klingon Cloak Mode" and don't bring it out again until it's finished, then take it to the field, put up a pattern, and bring it home in one piece again.
Time will tell,
Dan McEntee
Dan,
Thanks for that advice and I do understand I'm all over the place.
You can blame Sparky.
I see him build these gorgeous full blown pattern ships in only two weekends.
All I would like is just one, only one really nice model and I feel like I don't have that yet.
Having that model could possibly be out of my reach.
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Haven't had this many laughs since the "Burying My Goldfish" video from Australia.
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Dan,
Thanks for that advice and I do understand I'm all over the place.
You can blame Sparky.
I see him build these gorgeous full blown pattern ships in only two weekends.
All I would like is just one, only one really nice model and I feel like I don't have that yet.
Having that model could possibly be out of my reach.
Well how would you know what you have unless you finish something! HB~> It may be one of the dozen projects you have going, but you will NEVER know, nor EVER learn anything until you put one in the air. Building hanger queens don't count. What Sparky and everyone else shows you comes from experience, and experience comes from putting things into practical use, starting out for and reaching a goal. All of this information isn't just being pulled out of thin air. Just pick a model you have started, and FINISH IT! See if it flies. See how it performs. Anything else is just meaningless. What good does it do to get something half started or three quarters finished, and it just sits there? If you had taken some of the engergy put into most of the unfinished projects, and put it into finishing one or two, the reward and lessons learned are something to build the next models on. Just poking along and doing things the way you are doing them, you'll achieve nothing.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Well how would you know what you have unless you finish something! HB~> It may be one of the dozen projects you have going, but you will NEVER know, nor EVER learn anything until you put one in the air. Building hanger queens don't count. What Sparky and everyone else shows you comes from experience, and experience comes from putting things into practical use, starting out for and reaching a goal. All of this information isn't just being pulled out of thin air. Just pick a model you have started, and FINISH IT! See if it flies. See how it performs. Anything else is just meaningless. What good does it do to get something half started or three quarters finished, and it just sits there? If you had taken some of the engergy put into most of the unfinished projects, and put it into finishing one or two, the reward and lessons learned are something to build the next models on. Just poking along and doing things the way you are doing them, you'll achieve nothing.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Dan,
Just so you'll know.
I plan on removing the second pushrod, and both flap horns.
I will trim the TE straight to allow for only one horn. The horn will have 90 degree bends as per the angle of the swept TE. I.e., my diagram.
Yes, I will make two "lucky boxes" for the flaps. Thanks for bestowing that information and knowledge upon me. It's appreciated.
Flaps are only .25" thick. So I will review Sparky's reply about the brass boxes and use 1/16 ply above and below.
I thought about dialing down on the 1/8" horn rod to 3/32" because of the thin flaps, but Randy suggested against using 3/32" rod.
As for flying something I built and finished. Saturday I will be borrwing a paint stand so I can get a clear coat on both models, the Flit Streak and that P-40.
Could probably get both in the air the folowing weekend.
As for the pattern, I have the Pathfinder. I've done three consective loops, inverted flight, wing overs and figure eights. Trying to maintain my 5' at most times.
It's a start.
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You can blame Sparky.
Really?
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You can blame Sparky.
Really?
Chris,
That's clearly taken out of context.
Are you a Liberal? LL~
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Chris,
That's clearly taken out of context.
Are you a Liberal? LL~
^^^^^^troll post^^^^^^^
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Robert,
Thanks for that.
I made this sketch.
I see no reason why this won't solve all problems.
I just have to cut the back of the TE flat a bit from horn wire bend to bend.
Ever see it done this way?
Thanks for the reply.
yes ,, seen it this way when you use LUCKY BOXES which will live far longer than the airplane most likely,, especially if you listen,, and build them like you have been shown
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Dan,
Just so you'll know.
I plan on removing the second pushrod, and both flap horns.
I will trim the TE straight to allow for only one horn. The horn will have 90 degree bends as per the angle of the swept TE. I.e., my diagram.
Yes, I will make two "lucky boxes" for the flaps. Thanks for bestowing that information and knowledge upon me. It's appreciated.
Flaps are only .25" thick. So I will review Sparky's reply about the brass boxes and use 1/16 ply above and below.
I thought about dialing down on the 1/8" horn rod to 3/32" because of the thin flaps, but Randy suggested against using 3/32" rod.
As for flying something I built and finished. Saturday I will be borrwing a paint stand so I can get a clear coat on both models, the Flit Streak and that P-40.
Could probably get both in the air the folowing weekend.
As for the pattern, I have the Pathfinder. I've done three consective loops, inverted flight, wing overs and figure eights. Trying to maintain my 5' at most times.
It's a start.
Charles,
One more try...
If you go back and re-read my post about the G10 lucky boxes you will see that they will fit very nicely into a 1/4 inch flap. I would mention that you can obtain these lucky boxes pre-cut parts including the G10 pieces from Eric Rule at RSM. He puts them in his kits that use flaps! Nice parts and they work well!
G10 is very tough stuff and was developed for PC Boards subject to vibration and abrasion. I seriously doubt that you could wear out one of these lucky boxes if you flew the airplane 10 times a day for the rest of your life.
You need to understand something about people also. When you ask for advice from real experts who devote time and effort to answer your question with methods that have been proven over time and function, and then just totally disregard their advice and even question it's validity in some cases it's frustrating for those people and difficult for them to take you seriously.
Also, as has been mentioned before, your chosen approaches sometimes could be very misleading to newcomers who don't know you or those who give you advice in good faith...To them everyone comes off like know nothing boobs!
These comments are meant in good faith as advice and not criticism.
Randy Cuberly
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Dan,
Just so you'll know.
I plan on removing the second pushrod, and both flap horns.
I will trim the TE straight to allow for only one horn. The horn will have 90 degree bends as per the angle of the swept TE. I.e., my diagram.
Yes, I will make two "lucky boxes" for the flaps. Thanks for bestowing that information and knowledge upon me. It's appreciated.
Hey Charles,
Just bending that single horn so that the horn ends go into your flaps at a right (90 degree) angle and using lucky boxes does not necessarily solve your problem The lucky boxes will work if the horn intersects with the flap hinge line where those horn ends go into your flaps. Think about it and draw a sketch that shows what happens if that horn enters your flap well before the 90 degree bend in the wire. The lucky boxes work, but they have to be done right. If that bend is well inside the end of the flap, the flap will resist motion after just a few degrees of rotation on its hinges. Again, think about it and do it right.
The 90 degree bend really does not solve anything. That is why nobody mentioned it to you before. Yes, I know what I am talking about. No, I am not trying to give you a hard time. Yes, I am trying to help you here.
Keith
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This thread is one of the reasons I quit posting on this site.
Some of the greatest builder/fliers are here to help and advise, but sometimes it seems like a waste of time.
I'm a pretty fair builder and I'll put my finishes up against anyone. But when people ask for my advice and they don't want to listen to me, I feel like they are wasting my time, as well as their own.
Don't forget, Charles stated a couple of years ago that he could build a front row airplane.
I'm sorry, but that was an insult to the likes of Uncle Jimby, Phil Granderson, Jim Tichey, Ray Firkins, Kennny Stevens, Jerry Silver, Ted Fancher and those who have made it to the front row and know exactly what it takes to get there.
Charles, just build a plane. Finish it and fly it. Keep it simple with no bells and whistles, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
I hope this wont get me kicked off this forum again.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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OK,
A new morning and a better day. No, I didn't get much sleep last night with all of this on my mind.
First, I want to thank everyone for the added assistance with new replies and thank you for your understanding. As difficult as it must be.
Yes, it's become obvious to me that I've wasted good time reinventing foolish methods, not just this linkage system, but in many other areas as well.
This linkage system and my mindset towards it, I honestly have no idea how I draw myself off the path.
I do understand it's absolutely not the way to do this task.
A new morning, a new day and a correct attitude, I will contact Eric for my lucky boxes and order a new horn rod from Tom Morris.
With the lucky boxes I can eliminate the two horns for a single horn, eliminate both pushrods for a single shorter pushrod and trim a tad of the TE for the flat area needed to mount the new horn.
I'll bet I'll loose a full once or better discarding all that unneeded material.
Hard to believe I couldn't see this from the beginning and it has been a learning experience.
Thank you for your help. It's appreciated.
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Ok, I will go first - well done and nicely said Charles and I am sure that we all look forward to your labors bearing fruit. :)
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This thread is one of the reasons I quit posting on this site.
Some of the greatest builder/fliers are here to help and advise, but sometimes it seems like a waste of time.
I'm a pretty fair builder and I'll put my finishes up against anyone. But when people ask for my advice and they don't want to listen to me, I feel like they are wasting my time, as well as their own.
Don't forget, Charles stated a couple of years ago that he could build a front row airplane.
I'm sorry, but that was an insult to the likes of Uncle Jimby, Phil Granderson, Jim Tichey, Ray Firkins, Kennny Stevens, Jerry Silver, Ted Fancher and those who have made it to the front row and know exactly what it takes to get there.
Charles, just build a plane. Finish it and fly it. Keep it simple with no bells and whistles, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.
I hope this wont get me kicked off this forum again.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
No you wont get kicked off. LOL Enjoy You did however forget me in your front row list. LOL
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This thread is one of the reasons I quit posting on this site.
Some of the greatest builder/fliers are here to help and advise, but sometimes it seems like a waste of time.
I'm a pretty fair builder and I'll put my finishes up against anyone. But when people ask for my advice and they don't want to listen to me, I feel like they are wasting my time, as well as their own.
I've found over the years, on this forum and others, that for every one guy asking questions there's at least half a dozen lurkers that are watching the thread and noting the answers. So even if the guy you're talking to isn't doing what you suggest, someone out there is benefiting from both the answer and the question.
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Great Windy video on Paul Taylor's YouTube channel, shows control linkage and swept forward hinge lines http://youtu.be/mBcyFWOxkLA
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Well Will,
What can I say, and I'm saying this with a sense of humor.
Would have been nice if this was the first reply. LL~
Better late than never.
Thanks for it, and this explains everything.
Looks like my drawing.
I'll have to get brass boxes. Robert's suggestion.
Thanks Will.
Thanks Windy.
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Please Charles next time when I tell you something remember I really know what I am talking about. I don't have the math education but I have practical experience. All the spread sheets in the world will not equal that.
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Please Charles next time when I tell you something remember I really know what I am talking about. I don't have the math education but I have practical experience. All the spread sheets in the world will not equal that.
Robert,
Absolutely.
Interesting, because you still remain humble. How do you do that?
I've watched your videos repeatedly and I must say, you're offering valuable information and techniques.
One quick example is your tearing that patch by hand. I would have cut a square with a #11 blade.
Go figure.
Now I'm off to a good start in fixing my blunder with this wing.
I'll google tomorrow and find some brass boxes.
Charles
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You would still need lucky boxes for that method, no matter how much of the trailing edge you cut off. The difference is in the angle between the two trailing edges. There have been MANY people here trying to get you to see what you need to do. You are literally ASKING us to tell you what to do and you have been told already. I take EXTREME offense that you would think that the people on this forum would tell you something that would not work, or would cause you problems on purpose, even the ones you call your "enemies." No one is bullying you here, just frustrated and fed up with your self serving attitude and bull headedness.
What you have drawn will work, but you will still need lucky boxes. Bending the wire horns at that angle will not let the flaps work without binding at neutral.
Read the last line slowly! Over and over if necessary. Re read the post that was made about over thinking the situation. Then read it again slowly. All the answers are in this thread. Tons more in the archive and the pluses and minuses of using swept forward trailing edges.
All you gotta do is READ!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Dan,
Don't think I don't appreciate your offerings, because you would be wrong.
I know I'm thick headed, sorry about that, and the "Gibbs head slap" you give me from time to time, is much appreciated.
Thanks for your help and patience.
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Randy,
Thanks for that "One more try."
It's really appreciated
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Mark,
Can't leave you out, Keith either,
Thanks for your replies and interest.
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An update on this, just so you'll know.
I reread a good part of the replies again. I'm surprised at what I had missed. Thanks Dan.
"Whereas once I was blind, now I can see."
Everything has been removed. Both hornes and both pushrods. Kaput, in the trash bag. I don't want to be reminded of my stupidity and my lack of reasoning. n~
I ordered a new horn/horn wire and found a supplier of brass tubes for the lucky boxes, as per Windy's video.
I'm also going to pump my flaps up to 3/8" in thicknes. I can do this and just sand a tad away from the LE.
It's a great morning!
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Being relatively new to the forum, after reading this thread all I can say is WOW.
BB
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Being relatively new to the forum, after reading this thread all I can say is WOW.
BB
Well, it didn't run you off, so you must be a pretty tough guy!
LL~ LL~
Randy Cuberly
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I got pretty tough skin Randy....I have been around for a while.. not on here but in life....
Bill
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Well, I got that, highly recommended, single pushrod and single flap horn in place.
"Lucky boxes" tonight. "Lucky Boxes?" Sounds like the name of a Night Club.
Anyway, I'd like to thank everyone again for their constructive criticism that lead up to this change.
I never weighed the other pushrod and the second horn, but my guess is I tossed away some unwanted weight.
Probably should have taken Clint's advice also on not using these Fox bellcranks, could have easily made the change, but time and flights will let me know.
We'll see.
Thanks again. I appreciate it.
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Got my flaps made and my lucky boxes installed. Pays to take advice.
Wasn't all that difficult because the flaps were 3/8" at the wire. Good thing I made the boxed a tad longer because I closed up my flap gap by .125". Probably wouldn't matter if the horn rod stuck out of the lucky box a tad anyway?
I've done a great deal of sanding to get them thinner and tapered.
Nothing is glued in place and I do have to remove the flaps to cover the wing, but they do work free.
No photos, I cannot spend the time.
I'm going to concentrate on finishing the model and putting up a pattern.