Dope finishes

[George Albo]

As I have indicated in the past, I have returned to the hobby after a 30 hiatus and am at a loss over the changes I have found. Much good, and whole lot real bad. Pactra dope is non-existent. I used to buy clear in gallons and colors in quarts, so my question is as follows.

What is available today that I can use and still be fuel proof? Sanding sealer, clear dope, color, final clear? Are gallon quantities available?  What is everyone using?

Any direction would be appreciated.

George Albo
_______________________________
UPDATE: 

I would like to thank everyone for the encouraging words and kind assistance offered. I realized that if I thanked everyone individually as I have been doing, this thread would continue to grow. SOOOOO, I want to thank everyone at the same time for taking the time to direct me and inform me of what's available. Merry Chistmas everyone and thanks again!

George Albo

[Crist Rigotti]

Welcome back.  My guess you'd find your answers using the search function, especially in the finishing section.

[Paul Walker]

Replace Aero Gloss with the Brodak dope line. I have used it for years and it works fine.

However, you might be shocked by the prices. It's not just Brodak that is expensive.

Welcome back, and good luck.

[Dan Berry]

Be aware that Brodak color dope is not fuel proof. It needs clear on top of it.

[RC Storick]

here is who and what I use

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/randolf

[George Albo]

here is who and what I use

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/randolf

Thanks for the info. I cannot seem to remember which one is fuel proof. Nitrate or Butyrate. What do you use?

George Albo

[George Albo]

Welcome back.  My guess you'd find your answers using the search function, especially in the finishing section.

Thanks!

[George Albo]

Replace Aero Gloss with the Brodak dope line. I have used it for years and it works fine.

However, you might be shocked by the prices. It's not just Brodak that is expensive.

Welcome back, and good luck.

Thanks!

[George Albo]

Be aware that Brodak color dope is not fuel proof. It needs clear on top of it.

Thanks. Will this clear protect decals as well. I remember as a kid using fuel proofer over the decals or watered down white elmers glue then paint brushing a clear coat over the whole plane.

Thanks again,

George Albo

[Jim Svitko]

I doubt that clear dope, no matter what the brand, is much more fuel resistant than the colors.  Even with clear dope top coat I have seen blemishes on the finish if I did not wipe off raw fuel almost immediately.  You will need something better than dope to have any meaningful fuel resistance.

As far as cost goes, you can buy Randolph dope.  Randolph (now owned by Certified, I believe) makes Brodak dope but it is cheaper than Brodak.  However, the color selection is not as good.  And, the smallest size is a quart.  But since the items I use the most are butyrate thinner, non-tautening clear, and white, I will buy the thinner in gallons and the clear and white in quarts.  The Randolph thinner and dope are compatible with Brodak dope. 

[Dave_Trible]

George be careful with the decals.  Dope will surely fuel proof them to the level of the rest of the airplane but the dope may soften and smear the decals or shrinkage may drawn the decal up like a prune.  Airbrush the clear on in several very dry coats.
I use Certified clear dope (Aircraft Spruce) over and under Sig colors.  Adhesion isn't always perfect but these two don't have chemical issues,  as long as you use the same thinners and retarders in both.  Brodak is a fine product although something in it gives me headaches unlike the others.  I have had a couple compatability issues with Sig and Brodak though I've seen it written that Randoph makes both- go figure.  

Dave

[Jim Svitko]

I have also heard that Randolph make both Sig and Brodak dope.  But, the smell is very different so I hesitate to mix the two.  I have found the Brodak smell to be more tolerable than the Sig.  Not everyone will agree.

What I have experienced is that Brodak dope appears to have less shrinkage than Sig.  I had problems with Sig bubbling up in the fillets.  This was even with the Sig Lite Coat which is supposed to shrink less.  Maybe the formulation is different now and the shrinkage is not as it once was.  Brodak dope will shrink as well but not anywhere as bad as the Sig that I used some years ago.

Another thing I heard is that Sig clear is a bit more fuel resistant than the Brodak clear.  I have not used any Sig dope in a long time so I cannot verify that.

As Dave stated, be careful about applying dope over decals.   

[Avaiojet]

George,

I did not want to use colored dope for many reasons. Odor was one of them and the cost was another.

So I've taken a non colored dope aproach to finishing my models.

Hard to believe, but I was convinced to use aerosol cans.

There's this guy, Rusty Rattle Can, he has it down to a science and he convinced me. Way to go Rusty!

Rattle cans aren't for everyone, in fact, you may not want to try this at home. That's a joke.  

Seeing I don't care about weight or competition, aerosol cans are fine, for me anyway.

In fact, Rusty says he can do a light weight "can" job with great results. Me, I just use enough to cover to get the job done. I'm no longer fussy and never weighed the model before then after paint.

Currently, I use only Krylon brand. I haven't tried any other brand and cannot comment on them.

As far as  getting the finish Fuel Proof? I use the 2K Spray Max clear, a product suggested by another modeler, Dennis Toth I believe. Yes! Also available in an aerosol can.

My background involves years and years of working with professional spray equipment, so I may have a small, really small, advantage in knowing how to apply paint. Or, just read the can!  

I don't think you have seen these photos of models that were finished with aerosol cans? You can see the kind of results you can get with Krylon aerosol cans for color and the 2K Spray Max for clear.

Many modelers use Rust-o-leum aerosol cans, possibly they will Post photos of their models also. I know the Doc uses Rust-o-leum and gets a great finish with that Brand.

Good luck!

[Larry Borden]

I use Certified, Brodak and Sig, never had a problem mixing them. I always finish up with several light coats, sprayed of Brodak Crystal Clear. I mist several light coats over decals, letting the dry between coats and then spray the entire airplane with clear. I ordered a gallon of the clear from Brodak and he sent four one quart cans to get around haz mat charges.

[Bill Little]

Hi George,

I have found that a quart of Randolph costs not much more than a pint of Brodak at retail.  I use Randolph clear almost exclusively now that Sig has gone up so much.  It is much cheaper to get a gallon of Randolph and it comes in every type you need.  Nitrate and Butyrate in tautening and non tautening, tinted and pure clear.  I used tinted non tautening Nitrate for the entire base, or substrate.  Once the covering is on if it is silk or silkspan I use the tautening butyrate only on the open bays.  Once the model is ready for color I use all butyrate colors and then non tautening, non tinted butyrate clear as a finish coat.  I have also used the 2 part "death paint" automotive urethane clear for the final coat.  It is awesome, but can be expensive.  An all dope finish is just fine if necessary.

Most of all, have a ton of fun with this hobby!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Jim Kraft]

I use mostly Sig colors and Randolph clear. I don't us any nitrate. Butyrate from the wood out. I use the regular shrink for the open bays, and then low shrink for the rest. But I brush all my finishes from the wood out, so I do things a bit different than most. Works for me.

[billbyles]

Hi George,

I use, and recommend, Randolph butyrate clear (for everything except the topcoat clear over the colors) and Randolph colors, and Sig Light-Coat clear for the topcoat over the colors.  Over the years I have found Sig to be the most fuel-resistant (none of the dopes are fuel-proof) of all of the dope products; Brodak has the least fuel-resistance of the dope available today.  Certified, Randolph, and Sig butyrate thinners are all compatible with the butyrate products, with Certified being the fastest drying, Randolph the next fastest drying, and Sig the slowest drying of the thinners.  By the way, use butyrate dope thinner for thinning dope; some modelers use lacquer thinner for dope with success, but it is not designed for use with dope which is a different product from lacquer.

Nitrate has no fuel resistance at all, and butyrate has the best fuel-resistance of the dope products.  Nitrate dope can be thinned with either nitrate thinner or butyrate thinner, but nitrate thinner absolutely will not work in butyrate dope.  You can apply butyrate over nitrate but you cannot apply nitrate over any dope except nitrate.  I personally don't see any need for using nitrate dope on our model airplanes.

As was stated in a post above, Randolph and Certified are way less expensive than Brodak dope, and are readily available from full-scale aircraft products dealers such as Aircraft Spruce & Specialty, Wag-Aero, and many others.  Randolph has a huge selection of butyrate colors (the best available).  Certified is an excellent dope product but they have a very limited selection of colors.

[George Albo]

Welcome back.  My guess you'd find your answers using the search function, especially in the finishing section.

Thank you I'm going to search for that.

George Albo

[Randy Cuberly]

Brodak dope has nice color selections and is straight forward to apply.  However not only is the color not fuel proof the clear is NOT fuel proof either.

The attached picture is of me and Bart Klipinski (holding) getting ready to start the  engine in my GeoXL engine for a flight at the Southwest Regional Champs several years ago.  Look carefully at the nose of the airplane.  One drop of raw fuel from the tank did that line all the way to the bare wood.  This was painted exclusively with Brodak Dope and clear coated with Brodak Clear (several coats).

I now use Sig Dope and have no such problems!

Randy Cuberly

[George Albo]

Brodak dope has nice color selections and is straight forward to apply.  However not only is the color not fuel proof the clear is NOT fuel proof either.

The attached picture is of me and Bart Klipinski (holding) getting ready to start the  engine in my GeoXL engine for a flight at the Southwest Regional Champs several years ago.  Look carefully at the nose of the airplane.  One drop of raw fuel from the tank did that line all the way to the bare wood.  This was painted exclusively with Brodak Dope and clear coated with Brodak Clear (several coats).

I now use Sig Dope and have no such problems!

Randy Cuberly

Thanks Randy

[Dan McEntee]

Hi George,

I use, and recommend, Randolph butyrate clear (for everything except the topcoat clear over the colors) and Randolph colors, and Sig Light-Coat clear for the topcoat over the colors.  Over the years I have found Sig to be the most fuel-resistant (none of the dopes are fuel-proof) of all of the dope products; Brodak has the least fuel-resistance of the dope available today.  Certified, Randolph, and Sig butyrate thinners are all compatible with the butyrate products, with Certified being the fastest drying, Randolph the next fastest drying, and Sig the slowest drying of the thinners.  By the way, use butyrate dope thinner for thinning dope; some modelers use lacquer thinner for dope with success, but it is not designed for use with dope which is a different product from lacquer.

Nitrate has no fuel resistance at all, and butyrate has the best fuel-resistance of the dope products.  Nitrate dope can be thinned with either nitrate thinner or butyrate thinner, but nitrate thinner absolutely will not work in butyrate dope.  You can apply butyrate over nitrate but you cannot apply nitrate over any dope except nitrate.  I personally don't see any need for using nitrate dope on our model airplanes.

As was stated in a post above, Randolph and Certified are way less expensive than Brodak dope, and are readily available from full-scale aircraft products dealers such as Aircraft Spruce & Specialty, Wag-Aero, and many others.  Randolph has a huge selection of butyrate colors (the best available).  Certified is an excellent dope product but they have a very limited selection of colors.

  This needs to be pinned at the top of the finishing section, if it isn't alreadfy.
  MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!
  Dan McEntee

[Balsa Butcher]

I second what is posted above...both the wish and the recommendation! 

[George Albo]

Hi George,

I use, and recommend, Randolph butyrate clear (for everything except the topcoat clear over the colors) and Randolph colors, and Sig Light-Coat clear for the topcoat over the colors.  Over the years I have found Sig to be the most fuel-resistant (none of the dopes are fuel-proof) of all of the dope products; Brodak has the least fuel-resistance of the dope available today.  Certified, Randolph, and Sig butyrate thinners are all compatible with the butyrate products, with Certified being the fastest drying, Randolph the next fastest drying, and Sig the slowest drying of the thinners.  By the way, use butyrate dope thinner for thinning dope; some modelers use lacquer thinner for dope with success, but it is not designed for use with dope which is a different product from lacquer.

Nitrate has no fuel resistance at all, and butyrate has the best fuel-resistance of the dope products.  Nitrate dope can be thinned with either nitrate thinner or butyrate thinner, but nitrate thinner absolutely will not work in butyrate dope.  You can apply butyrate over nitrate but you cannot apply nitrate over any dope except nitrate.  I personally don't see any need for using nitrate dope on our model airplanes.

As was stated in a post above, Randolph and Certified are way less expensive than Brodak dope, and are readily available from full-scale aircraft products dealers such as Aircraft Spruce & Specialty, Wag-Aero, and many others.  Randolph has a huge selection of butyrate colors (the best available).  Certified is an excellent dope product but they have a very limited selection of colors.

Thank you Bill for taking the time and posting this for me / (and actually everyone else that have pitched in). I just copy & pasted the above so that my fading memory can access this info !!!

[peabody]

Years ago, while making sales calls in the Meadowlands of NJ, I got a strong odor of dope...looked around and viola, there was the Randolph dope factory!
I knew that Windy had been unhappy with the pigment content of SIG dope, and drug him to the factory....the folks were great and made Windy some sample batches of both bright yellow and white......Windy was happy with the covering ability. Soon thereafter, John Brodak visited and we (Winfred and I) took him to Randolph.....pretty soon, John was in the dope business! Messy at first, and issues with caps leaking air, but he persevered. Windy had several colors added to the initial batch (the red on his B-25 and the Silver as well),

Windy used Brodak products exclusively thereafter.....two or three 20 pointers....

He was flying around 1000 flights before the Nationals then.....he NEVER had a fuel proofing issue, nor a yellowing issue.....the white on his air force is still as brilliant as it was when he created them.....

If you ever watched Windy's videos, he was a major proponent of letting paint "gas off", and he rubbed the crap out of every topcoat....but NEVER had a bleed through or yellowing issue.

Randolph was purchased by a California company and the Randolph plant closed......when I was nearby last, you could still smell the dope odor.....

The Brodak product has morphed into a "mixing" process using the new supplier....

The Randolph product that we got to know and love is a different formulation than that of today.....now comes from California and is subject to their clean air laws.....

Have fun!

[billbyles]

<snip>

.....he NEVER had a fuel proofing issue, nor a yellowing issue.....the white on his air force is still as brilliant as it was when he created them.....

If you ever watched Windy's videos, he was a major proponent of letting paint "gas off", and he rubbed the crap out of every topcoat....but NEVER had a bleed through or yellowing issue.

Randolph was purchased by a California company and the Randolph plant closed......when I was nearby last, you could still smell the dope odor.....

The Brodak product has morphed into a "mixing" process using the new supplier....

The Randolph product that we got to know and love is a different formulation than that of today.....now comes from California and is subject to their clean air laws.....

Have fun!

".....he NEVER had a fuel proofing issue,..."
Well Peabody, I have known several former Nats champs who HAVE had fuel proofing issues with Brodak dopes and no longer use that product.

"If you ever watched Windy's videos, he was a major proponent of letting paint "gas off", and he rubbed the crap out of every topcoat....but NEVER had a bleed through or yellowing issue."
Again, well Peabody, anyone who produces top quality dope finishes does the same things, and I have never referred to nor do I know about any yellowing issues.

"The Brodak product has morphed into a "mixing" process using the new supplier...."
What do you mean by that???  You just made a statement that says nothing, as usual.

"The Randolph product that we got to know and love is a different formulation than that of today.....now comes from California and is subject to their clean air laws....."
Well Peabody, as usual, your ignorance is huge.  California does have stringent "clean air laws", however Randolph dope products are produced under the "For Aerospace Use Only" clause and are still made to the same formula as before.  You need to get your information straight before you come on & do your now famous "Drive-by Postings."

And by the way, you can add pigment to colored dope only just so much (actually not very much) before the intercoat adhesion is very adversely affected.  I have never found any of the Randolph or Sig colored butyrate dopes to have insufficient coverage (including whites which have titanium dioxide pigment) and I have had airplanes in the front row.

[Crist Rigotti]

As I have indicated in the past, I have returned to the hobby after a 30 hiatus and am at a loss over the changes I have found. Much good, and whole lot real bad. Pactra dope is non-existent. I used to buy clear in gallons and colors in quarts, so my question is as follows.

What is available today that I can use and still be fuel proof? Sanding sealer, clear dope, color, final clear? Are gallon quantities available?  What is everyone using?

Any direction would be appreciated.

George Albo
_______________________________
UPDATE:  

I would like to thank everyone for the encouraging words and kind assistance offered. I realized that if I thanked everyone individually as I have been doing, this thread would continue to grow. SOOOOO, I want to thank everyone at the same time for taking the time to direct me and inform me of what's available. Merry Chistmas everyone and thanks again!

George Albo

George,
I'm curious as to what you mean by " and a whole lot real bad."  I flew some stunt as a kid in the mid to late 60's, then did R/C and got back into stunt around 2000.  I think stunt is better than ever.  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything like that at all.  I'm just curious why you would say that.

Thanks.

[Brett Buck]

"The Randolph product that we got to know and love is a different formulation than that of today.....now comes from California and is subject to their clean air laws....."
Well Peabody, as usual, your ignorance is huge.  California does have stringent "clean air laws", however Randolph dope products are produced under the "For Aerospace Use Only" clause and are still made to the same formula as before.  You need to get your information straight before you come on & do your now famous "Drive-by Postings."

And by the way, you can add pigment to colored dope only just so much (actually not very much) before the intercoat adhesion is very adversely affected. 

   In fact, that is a severe defect of Windy's method of allowing the colors to separate and pouring off the clear to concentrate the pigment, which amounts to the same thing. It really only works if you use the lightest of light clear coats, or something like a urethane clear. Several people emulating that particular bit of "advice" came to grief when they got their clear slightly too wet and everything just melted showing all the work underneath.

     Brett

[RC Storick]

I will jump in and say what I use to fuel Proof. I use only butyrate dope and I shoot the nose and cowl with 2 part urethane . There is no paint impervious to nitro except one that paint is called Sunfire by Sherwin Williams designed for the Bonneville salt flats race cars and meaybe Imeron and you really don't want any part of those. Don't worry too much about it just try to be careful and if you use 5% Nitro it should not affect it. It gets bad when you start getting up around 15% nitro that it really matters how much fuel you drip on the paint and how quick you wipe it off.

[Randy Cuberly]

".....he NEVER had a fuel proofing issue,..."
Well Peabody, I have known several former Nats champs who HAVE had fuel proofing issues with Brodak dopes and no longer use that product.

"If you ever watched Windy's videos, he was a major proponent of letting paint "gas off", and he rubbed the crap out of every topcoat....but NEVER had a bleed through or yellowing issue."
Again, well Peabody, anyone who produces top quality dope finishes does the same things, and I have never referred to nor do I know about any yellowing issues.

"The Brodak product has morphed into a "mixing" process using the new supplier...."
What do you mean by that???  You just made a statement that says nothing, as usual.

"The Randolph product that we got to know and love is a different formulation than that of today.....now comes from California and is subject to their clean air laws....."
Well Peabody, as usual, your ignorance is huge.  California does have stringent "clean air laws", however Randolph dope products are produced under the "For Aerospace Use Only" clause and are still made to the same formula as before.  You need to get your information straight before you come on & do your now famous "Drive-by Postings."

And by the way, you can add pigment to colored dope only just so much (actually not very much) before the intercoat adhesion is very adversely affected.  I have never found any of the Randolph or Sig colored butyrate dopes to have insufficient coverage (including whites which have titanium dioxide pigment) and I have had airplanes in the front row.

I would add something very important to what I said in my previous post with the picture of the GeoXL.  The engine in that airplane was a Belko Long Shaft 56 that ran on FAI fuel....No NITRO and the fuel still did what you see in the photo.  I'm not trying to bad mouth Brodak products but I didn't make this up.  Several others, Mike Keville for one had similar problems with Brodak Dope on a free flight airplane around the same time.

I strongly suspect that Windy used Polyeurethane top coat on his airplanes because I distinctly remember him mentioning that in some of his videos.

Randy Cuberly!!!

[peabody]

Hi Randy
I recall that Windy used some auto paint occasionally....several "customer" planes. He even used Imron on a plane around '95, but I believe that the vast majority of his later stuff was dope....he is using a lot of auto stuff today with the motorbikes, but has also done a bunch of bikes using dope.
He did a "test" wing around '95 with a three part paint as well.....he wasn't happy and gave it to me.....

Here in Paradise, with humidity constantly high, Eric Viglione has achieved beautiful, and light, results using epoxy as a clear coat....

I know that many in the northeast are heading to PA to have auto clear applied by a flier.....he knows about "light" and has the correct equipment.

Have fun!

[john e. holliday]

If done right,  epoxy is the most fuel proof finish going.   When I could get it locally, K&B Epoxy clear is what I used for top coat.   Now it is the two part Omni clear now.  But as I don't go for super finishes,  I think Larry Renger's way is the way I will go.

[Eric Viglione]

Here in Paradise, with humidity constantly high, Eric Viglione has achieved beautiful, and light, results using epoxy as a clear coat....

Have fun!

Well...almost, but not quite right Rich.

I DO use KlassKote brand Epoxy colors, and I also got my last 2 planes clear 2 part URETHANE CLEAR from KlassKote, but it is NOT Epoxy clear.

My experience with Epoxy clear the one time I tried it, is that it yellows badly over time, especially noticeable over white.

The plane I have shot with Epoxy white and no clear coat, and the white is still reasonably white, yet have another plane, a few years newer, the only one I shot with Epoxy clear over the same epoxy white base, and it now looks like Diana Cream.

So, I switched to Urethane a long time ago. The planes shot with Urethane haven't yellowed yet, and have spent a lot of time baking in the sun over the years. The UV inhibitors in Auto clears are far superior to Epoxy clear.

Not wanting to send anyone on wild goose chases, had to post this correction.

EricV

[peabody]

Thanks
I knew there was epoxy there someplace

[Jim Kraft]

I use to K&B Superpoxy on some of my R/C pattern planes, and always had good luck with it. I never used clear over it. I have always been a little afraid of putting one kind of paint over another, as if you have to make a repair you have two different layers of paint that might have been compatable when first done, but not in a repair situation where you are sanding two different chemicals. Even using nitrate under butyrate has cause me problems in the past with repairs. That is why I use butyrate from the wood out. May not be the best, but it always works for me.

[Dave_Trible]

Jim the repair issue has been why I have avoided death paint.  In the early 80s Jim Cochran and I used Imron on several airplanes.  The Musics I took to the Nats then were done with it.  Patching was near impossible though the shoot and go finish got me on about the third row then.  I have some urethane clear that I MAY spray on top the dope finish just on the nose of my new ship to help with the fuel damage.  Hope it will rub out like the dope.

Dave

[Jim Kraft]

Dave, I use to have some Buff-eze made by Martin Senour that would buff out K&B epoxy to an almost dope shine. It was really good stuff but they don't make it anymore. It was really fine but cut fast. It was the only thing I ever found that would polish epoxy paint. Since I did not use clear on my R/C pattern planes I used it to rub out the masked lines and it did a beautiful job. Every time I find something that works good they quit making it. 

[George Albo]

George,

I did not want to use colored dope for many reasons. Odor was one of them and the cost was another.

So I've taken a non colored dope aproach to finishing my models.

Hard to believe, but I was convinced to use aerosol cans.

There's this guy, Rusty Rattle Can, he has it down to a science and he convinced me. Way to go Rusty!

Rattle cans aren't for everyone, in fact, you may not want to try this at home. That's a joke.  

Seeing I don't care about weight or competition, aerosol cans are fine, for me anyway.

In fact, Rusty says he can do a light weight "can" job with great results. Me, I just use enough to cover to get the job done. I'm no longer fussy and never weighed the model before then after paint.

Currently, I use only Krylon brand. I haven't tried any other brand and cannot comment on them.

As far as  getting the finish Fuel Proof? I use the 2K Spray Max clear, a product suggested by another modeler, Dennis Toth I believe. Yes! Also available in an aerosol can.

My background involves years and years of working with professional spray equipment, so I may have a small, really small, advantage in knowing how to apply paint. Or, just read the can!  

I don't think you have seen these photos of models that were finished with aerosol cans? You can see the kind of results you can get with Krylon aerosol cans for color and the 2K Spray Max for clear.

Many modelers use Rust-o-leum aerosol cans, possibly they will Post photos of their models also. I know the Doc uses Rust-o-leum and gets a great finish with that Brand.
Good luck!

Thanks, this seems like a must try. Your planes look awesome by the way!

[George Albo]

George,
I'm curious as to what you mean by " and a whole lot real bad."  I flew some stunt as a kid in the mid to late 60's, then did R/C and got back into stunt around 2000.  I think stunt is better than ever.  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything like that at all.  I'm just curious why you would say that.

Thanks.

Not a problem. I see that today you can get pretty much anything online. That being said, I miss Orange Blossom Hobbies where as a kid and young adult I would go over and buy kits, paint, balsa, glue, engines and get advice from Les McDonald when he worked there. Even got to see his original 1974 Nats winner the Stiletto as it was on display. No more Sterling kits, Midwest, Carl Goldberg and his products. I cannot get Dukes super fuel, Missile Mist or K&B fuel anymore , can't get Pactra Dope, forget ambroid cement....Fox is not producing engines, forget Cox, MRC World Engines is not around any longer. Lost a whole bunch of the greats of the hobby during this time period. This is what I meant as the bad. I hope that clears up my comment and perspective for you.

[Brett Buck]

No more Sterling kits, Midwest, Carl Goldberg and his products. I cannot get Dukes super fuel, Missile Mist or K&B fuel anymore , can't get Pactra Dope, forget ambroid cement....Fox is not producing engines, forget Cox, MRC World Engines is not around any longer. Lost a whole bunch of the greats of the hobby during this time period. This is what I meant as the bad. I hope that clears up my comment and perspective for you.

   There are replacements for all of those that are quite superior to the originals. It's just different from those familiar names. Of course I have been doing it the entire time, so it's not as much of a shock to me.

   OS engines far higher-quality products than anything ever produced by Fox, and they make far superior sport engines and generally better competition engines than many. RO-Jett engines and the Aero-Tigers are still available for high-end competition, there are plenty of PA engines around, and there are electric systems and 4-strokes that are also far superior to anything available in 1985. 1985 is just about when a MASSIVE jump in stunt performance occurred.

    Randolph and SIG dopes are still available, Brodak dope can be used with caveats. Klass-Kote epoxy is far superior and lighter for a very good finish, and clear with car clear or the new urethane clear from Klass-Kote. I use SIG to attach tissue or graphite matt (superior to silkspan over solid surfaces), then switch to Klass-Kote or old K&B Superpoxy for the colors, then car clear.

     There are numerous kit-makers, Brodak, RSM, and a host of semi-custom manufacturers, all superior to Midwest/CG/Sterling/Top Flite. High-quality parts are available everywhere, and the knowledge on how to do literally anything connected with model airplanes is immediately at hand on the internet. You also have access to some of the best pilots to ever fly the event, same thing.

    About when you say you dropped out, I figured that stunt was going to be just about over with because of lack of acceptable engines. Since then it has gotten MUCH better, we have many more choices and far superior equipment. The good old days are now!

     Brett

[George Albo]

   There are replacements for all of those that are quite superior to the originals. It's just different from those familiar names. Of course I have been doing it the entire time, so it's not as much of a shock to me.

   OS engines far higher-quality products than anything ever produced by Fox, and they make far superior sport engines and generally better competition engines than many. RO-Jett engines and the Aero-Tigers are still available for high-end competition, there are plenty of PA engines around, and there are electric systems and 4-strokes that are also far superior to anything available in 1985. 1985 is just about when a MASSIVE jump in stunt performance occurred.

    Randolph and SIG dopes are still available, Brodak dope can be used with caveats. Klass-Kote epoxy is far superior and lighter for a very good finish, and clear with car clear or the new urethane clear from Klass-Kote. I use SIG to attach tissue or graphite matt (superior to silkspan over solid surfaces), then switch to Klass-Kote or old K&B Superpoxy for the colors, then car clear.

     There are numerous kit-makers, Brodak, RSM, and a host of semi-custom manufacturers, all superior to Midwest/CG/Sterling/Top Flite. High-quality parts are available everywhere, and the knowledge on how to do literally anything connected with model airplanes is immediately at hand on the internet. You also have access to some of the best pilots to ever fly the event, same thing.

    About when you say you dropped out, I figured that stunt was going to be just about over with because of lack of acceptable engines. Since then it has gotten MUCH better, we have many more choices and far superior equipment. The good old days are now!

     Brett

    Brett

Thanks Brett!

[George Albo]

You cannot begin to imagine the shock!!!  I finally have some peace of mind to start up again and play catch up with my hobby. I started to read some of my old AAM magazines and got bit by the bug. So what does a good modeler do? He goes to the hobby shop. In my case I went to where I spent most of my time during my youth, Orange Blossom Hobbies.  MAN WAS I DISAPPOINTED !!!!!!!  The neighborhood had gone to the dogs, the hobby shop was no longer in business and the physical building and lot was now an auto junk yard / tow service etc. Yup, took awhile before I got out of that dark cloud after having gotten all exited again. Time passed and for laughs and giggles I did a google search for C/L forums and found Stunthanger and haven't looked back since. I started to buy a few tools, got a corner where I'm gonna start working on some planes soon. Times are interesting and I plan to make the most of it!
Thanks Brett!