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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: tom creasey on March 27, 2017, 09:28:40 AM
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I was following a group of flyers and the discussion came up about the color of your plane can determine the scores you get from the judges on your flight. really can't talk to a judge about this cause it could influence them.
I am a beginner still and I learn from my upper classman to try to find my grove in our sport. I wanted to bring this color thing up to see what ya'll think about this topic. For me I might start to evaluate what colors I use from now on. I feel it is wrong to have a certain color to get higher or lower scores as you are flying your event.
Do any of you know if a Camo paint scheme has won the Nats?
For my paint scheme I like the warbirds and I weather them, which my planes aren't shiny and bright with dark colors is effecting my scores?
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It is said that Red's are the colors to use for high scores
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Practice with good coaching makes good scores
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Practice with good coaching makes good scores
I agree.....but they saying cause it has do with what the human eyes see in color spectrum which makes your maneuvers different in how the judges see them
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I was following a group of flyers and the discussion came up about the color of your plane can determine the scores you get from the judges on your flight. really can't talk to a judge about this cause it could influence them.
I am a beginner still and I learn from my upper classman to try to find my grove in our sport. I wanted to bring this color thing up to see what ya'll think about this topic. For me I might start to evaluate what colors I use from now on. I feel it is wrong to have a certain color to get higher or lower scores as you are flying your event.
Do any of you know if a Camo paint scheme has won the Nats?
For my paint scheme I like the warbirds and I weather them, which my planes aren't shiny and bright with dark colors is effecting my scores?
No offense, but this is the sort of silly discussion that gets people hung up all the time. The quick answer is no. What gets good scores is making the maneuvers look like they do in the rule book. Of course, if you can see the airplane better it usually allows you to fly better, so it's not irrelevant, but it's not the judges doing it.
And again, no offense, even if there was any effect like this at all, it would at most affect guys who are already competitive for wins at the NATs, not *beginners*. That means you are maybe 10-15 YEARS of hard work away from it mattering.
If you get your engine to run, reasonable trim, and don't make silly mistakes like running out of gas or flying level flight at 25 feet (all of which happen all the time), you will win every beginner contest forever. Where forever is defined as 2 weeks, because you will then move to intermediate. Where the same thing applies - don't make any silly mistakes and you will win every contest you enter.
Learn to build, learn to trim, and learn to fly, paint it whatever color suits you.
Brett
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No offense, but this is the sort of silly discussion that gets people hung up all the time.
And again, no offense, That means you are maybe 10-15 YEARS of hard work away from it mattering.
Learn to build, learn to trim, and learn to fly, paint it whatever color suits you.
Brett
no offense, I don't think this is silly.....it gives me a direction I may turn to as what I will choose for a Scheme and color. I am asking cause I am a beginner, close to going to intermediate, so it does matter to me now starting out. It is another skill into the progression for me into the stunt flying I need to think about.
Apparently talking about this subject might be read by a judge and he, himself will be more aware of to really study and look a little close and have in the back of his mind that color could have some play.
How do you fly when the back ground is dark from tree shadows that it can physically have effect on your relations to the ground of what eye perceives where the plane is located?
Just wanted to get a census from fellow modelers.
No offense, I will not be like you.......I will do it 5 years or less.... you don't know who or what I am, as I don't know you
I am sorry if sometimes I ask silly stuff......sometimes the smartest people ask silly stuff. I was raised that there is know such thing as a silly question.
I didn't start this thread to cause problems for other modelers. It was something I read and now I am trying to learn something, I don't think that is silly
I think at the start of the season that a judge might read this and really try to remember a dark color plane verse's a light color plane flown by the same guy as he judged and see if there is a different how the maneuver looks , even in the intersection.
I am curious to watch fellow flyers with different color planes this year and judge for myself
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My belief is that an aeroplane that stands out from background is easier to judge....both the brilliant moves and the awful ones stand out equally. A plane that disappears into the background (usually trees) is harder for judges to see, and those that I know point down when there is a question.
Have fun!
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My belief is that an aeroplane that stands out from background is easier to judge....both the brilliant moves and the awful ones stand out equally. A plane that disappears into the background (usually trees) is harder for judges to see, and those that I know point down when there is a question.
Have fun!
Would this be something to point out at a pilots meeting at an event if the wind is in a direction of an area where the back ground is dark?
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no offense, I don't think this is silly.....it gives me a direction I may turn to as what I will choose for a Scheme and color. I am asking cause I am a beginner, close to going to intermediate, so it does matter to me now starting out. It is another skill into the progression for me into the stunt flying I need to think about.
And all I can say, after doing this for 40+ years from beginner to national competition, you DO NOT need to think about this, and time spent thinking about this is time that you could be spending on some more useful pursuit. I am not trying to belittle the idea, but stunt is about craftsmanship and accurate execution of geometric shapes, not what color it is, "what the judges are buying today", not obscure points of spherical geometry, and not what kind of pants you wear, etc. These are all classic distractions that if indulged push you in the wrong directions and at best waste your time and at worst, prevent you from every progressing.
I would also note that the premise (red airplanes score better) is demonstrably false, as most National Championship airplanes over the last 30 have been predominately white base colors, with a few yellow and one purple.
Brett
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I believe where they were going with it is that red doesn't stand out between blue skies and green trees and therefore if your corners aren't sharp....you may get a good score on a poor maneuver because you can't clearly see the mistake..... if you can decipher what I just said lol....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
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Would this be something to point out at a pilots meeting at an event if the wind is in a direction of an area where the back ground is dark?
As a judge with some experience over the years, your question does not make much sense. I think most judges will know the direction of the wind and most judges will know if there is a dark background. So what are you suggesting should be explained in a pilot's meeting?
It is up to the pilot to present a pattern for the judges to observe. The wind will normally dictate the position of the judges and where the pilot will position his maneuvers. An experienced pilot will position his maneuvers to the best of his/her ability in accordance with the rulebook relative to wind direction and regardless of "background". You will find that judges, as a whole, try to be very diligent to discern how well the pilot is performing, regardless of "background". An experienced pilot will also know that his score will suffer if the maneuver is flown in a position where the judge's cannot critically observe the maneuver. A judge should not give a good score to something he cannot see. (Shifting wind directions during a judged pattern is another subject and beyond the scope of this thread.)
You also explained that you do not know Brett Buck. For your information, not only has he been a top qualifier at the Nats for a number of years, he has won the CL Stunt Championship at the Nats (the Walker Cup). Brett is recognized in our CL stunt community as one of the best stunt judges in the country.
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This is chasing a fast rabbit when you have an elephant sitting in your lap.
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As a judge with some experience over the years, your question does not make much sense. I think most judges will know the direction of the wind and most judges will know if there is a dark background. So what are you suggesting should be explained in a pilot's meeting?
I would add, it's immensely easier for the judges to see the airplane, no matter what color, than it is for the pilot. I have lost airplanes in backgrounds many times over the years flying, but never judging, even camo-painted models against dark green.
It actually *does* make sense to choose colors you can see yourself, but choosing it so you can see it yourself is another matter.
Brett
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West coast colors are best
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As someone that has judged at least 100 contests at a variety of levels and from local events through to Canadian Team Trials and Canadian Nationals I can say that the color of a model never influenced a flight mark I awarded.
As a pilot I prefer a color that I can see the best with sunglasses on. For me that is red and white. Again as the pilot, dark colors are harder to follow against a dark background and are harder to find after flying against the sun. I also think as a pilot I can see a paint scheme with high contrast better.
The perspective of the model for the pilot is completely different than that for the judge. The sun can cause the pilot to lose sight of the model but the judge never has that problem in my experience.
I would agree with Brett that focusing on building quality, trim, proper power, weather conditions and skill influence scores. The color from a judges perspective does not.
John McFayden
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I pick colors so I can see the airplane. I gave my combat planes a toot of fluorescent orange paint and wore orange sunglasses (Suncloud Rose), having the notion that I could see my planes better than my opponents could. This was especially helpful with cataracts. When I took up stunt I continued to paint my fuselages orange and wear orange sunglasses. This was OK unless there was both sun and trees downwind. I found that a bright LED on the side of the airplane helped in that case, but that was one thing that judges didn't like (back to your original question). Cataracts are gone now, but I have other vision trouble that having bright-colored airplanes helps.
A white or fluorescent fuselage will enable you to practice later in the evening.
The late Don Shultz told us an interesting tidbit: maroon airplanes disappear when they move.
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Speaking from a psychology point of view, the better the finish presents the to the judges (and the better the judges can see the plane, as Howard said), the better the score, given equal skill of the pattern. Also, it is natural for a human to be more lenient to something they like. Unconsciously, but it's there.
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West coast colors are best
Rich, you have posted some of the lamest crap I have ever read on this board, but this one is your lamest.
I wish you would give up model airplanes and take up bowling or golf so we would not have to see your snide BS anymore.
If someone were to put together a top ten list of the biggest jack-asses in stunt, you no doubt would top the list.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt team
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Speaking from a psychology point of view, the better the finish presents the to the judges (and the better the judges can see the plane, as Howard said), the better the score, given equal skill of the pattern. Also, it is natural for a human to be more lenient to something they like. Unconsciously, but it's there.
Agreed, if at any time one has to remind oneself that a condition is irrelevant, then it is relevant.
Just wondering how German color schemes would score just after WWII in England or Japanese schemes in America?
Bias is always there but admirably limited by concious decision.
A parrallel I could use is that of noise, a good friend of mine who uses tuned pipes in F2B was
chatting to a judge post contest and was told if you model made less of an awful noise then perhaps you might score better.
Admittedly this particular setup did produce a most grating sound at times but it should not have effected his scores, or should it?
If a judge is uncomfortable about something then it will affect their thought process.
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Speaking from a psychology point of view, the better the finish presents the to the judges (and the better the judges can see the plane, as Howard said), the better the score, given equal skill of the pattern. Also, it is natural for a human to be more lenient to something they like. Unconsciously, but it's there.
Again, the idea that you would expend any effort trying to unconsciously influence the judges for anything is absurd until you have removed all other conscious factors. Everyone, and I mean everyone including David, Paul, Billy, anyone, still makes numerous obvious mistakes on every flight. Everybody else makes EVEN MORE obvious and numerous mistakes. We are talking about BEG/INT fliers who by definition (and no criticism implied or intended) can't make recognizable square maneuvers, much less perfect. They guys who can fly level at 10 feet on their takeoffs usually win. Even if you grant the premise that it matters (which I don't), how close to perfect to you think you have to be to make it matter, compared to removing even one minor mistake?
Paint the airplane any color you want (note that red in particular tends to cover poorly and tends to be heavy, probably even worse than yellow) and then do one more practice flight.
Listen, or don't, matters not a whit to me ultimately. But I hate to see people wasting their limited modeling time and effort, even 10 minutes of internet jabber, on stuff that doesn't matter to anyone, ever. And unfortunately, this sort of thing is exactly what hangs people up at some level of development.
I will say it again - what matters to the judges is WHERE THE AIRPLANE GOES IN THE AIR, and IF YOU MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE DRAWINGS IN THE RULE BOOK, YOU WILL GET A BETTER SCORE. And as a corollary, if you don't get a good score, you can assume that you ARE NOT making the figures like the rule book . In which case the solution is obvious.
Brett
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Well, Brett, maybe not you. ;D
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Wonderfully dismissive Brett, and you seem to be taking this personally and as an attack.
The original post asks about will colors affect my score
, and sure the judge is indirectly relavant here as they are simply an unbiased ;D reporting mechanism but what about the 1st person perspective of the pilot?
They fret about inadequacies, perform below their best as a result and that directly effects their score. Sounds more than relavent to me.
But as you say, none of this matters and is a waste of time.
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Does the color make a difference? I say yes, but it's not what you think. Paint the plane any color you want as long as you can see it. If you can see it the judges can see it. Say if your flying amongst trees I personally would not want a leaf colored airplane.
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I was part of this discussion on another place, with a face and a thumbs up,,
ONe person contended that making the plane red made it harder to see accuratly and by that he felt you would score better because benefit of the doubt or something, never really got full grasp of his point.
There is some truth that maroon is harder to track than other colors,
then another poster of some acclaim commented that he painted his airplanes to be as visible as possble, contending that dark planes by capable pilots versus bright planes by the same pilots tend not to score as well, my take, because bright planes are easier to track and judge ,,
I love bright colors so it matters not to me, but even bright colors like my Green pearl beast could get lost at dusk wth trees behind it, and it was NOT even close to leaf green, it just disapeared, however so did every other airplane flown on that particular night,,
I have to agree with Brett here, ( and I did not see hm taking it personal at all, just reporting the facts as he sees them) if you can get in one quality pracitve flight in the time you spend thinking about this, you are probably better off flying, or building.
However that said, some of us do enjoy the mental gymnastics of this sort of thing when we cannot be building or flying, just please, dont let it dictate your enjoyment or advancment, build straight, practice ( quality practice, dont just fly) practice more, and paint the plane the way you want. When you need another half a point, then think about color ok? H^^
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So what happens if say, a dazzle camouflage color scheme is used?
(And camo was the original topic.)
For the uninitiated a Dazzle scheme is intended to hide size, shape and direction of an object, or simply its 'intention.'
Just think zebras changing direction when being chased by a predator.
In this case if its harder to determine direction changes due to a chosen color scheme isnt it reasonable to conclude that its harder to accurately score?
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Rich, you have posted some of the lamest crap I have ever read on this board, but this one is your lamest.
I wish you would give up model airplanes and take up bowling or golf so we would not have to see your snide BS anymore.
If someone were to put together a top ten list of the biggest jack-asses in stunt, you no doubt would top the list.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt team
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y1 y1 y1 y1 y1 y1
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As I said above "Practice with good coaching makes good scores"
It is the short answer for sure.
Make the airplane a color that you can see against all backgrounds. That is why John D'Ottavio preferred orange.
When we were young we thought nothing about Brown, Black, Dark Blue etc, but these are hard to see, particularly when facing trees and you have to go from a bright sky or sun, then to a tree background low.
Red, yellow, orange need a white base under them since they are transparent. This equals weight.
Chris mentioned camo paint jobs. Keith Trostle won the Nats with a Focke Wolf German paint job which has a lot of green in it. This again shows that the color has nothing to do with good scores.
So I repeat my statement that is supported by all the top fliers. ""Practice with good coaching makes good scores""
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Again, going to extremes here but does this 'dazzling' camo scheme make a difference?
Because if it does (and it should) then colour and its arrangement must be considered when recognising an object.
Robert made a good point back there, the judges must 'see' the model and if the colour and its scheme detract from recognition, and scores are based on that, then logically the scores will be detracted also.
The difference is that the 'dazzle' scheme is designed to be recognised (unlike normal camo which obscures) and detracts from directional intention.
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Wonderfully dismissive Brett, and you seem to be taking this personally and as an attack.
The original post asks about will colors affect my score
, and sure the judge is indirectly relavant here as they are simply an unbiased ;D reporting mechanism but what about the 1st person perspective of the pilot?
They fret about inadequacies, perform below their best as a result and that directly effects their score. Sounds more than relavent to me.
The question asked was does it matter what color your airplane is. My opinion is that the answer is no, it is irrelevant, and that you should avoid this and the many other similar traps that people fall into again and again. No one is compelled to pay any attention - maybe I am wrong. Probably not, I have been doing this forever and have seen these traps and have fallen into a few myself, but got out when I paid attention to people with more experience.
I would think people who are unsure of themselves need clear information about what matters and what does not, and the worst thing anyone could do is encourage them in their insecurities. Stunt is as simple as it gets, and I hope people can get that.
What do you want? I have flown in large contests for decades and judged around 10,000 flights from all skill levels, they asked for an opinion and I gave one, and now you are arguing about it. Should I tell you that it's really important, even though it isn't?
The most successful stunt plane of all time was painted pink and faded flourescent yellow, so I think that's what you should all do. Happy? I am sure it was a coincidence that it was also in perfect trim and had nearly infallible engine runs.
Brett
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As an expert level flier and experienced judge I can tell you with conviction that the color or even size or shape of the airplane has little or no effect on scores. The size shape and placement of the maneuvers is what counts.
Any who don't believe that need to go watch Joe Gilbert fly a pattern with his Ringmaster that is not particularly pretty, outstanding in color, or even easy to fly!
He scored at the recent VSC in Classic in the high 560's to 570's with patterns that were simply very well flown with an unimpressive airplane that became very impressive because of the way HE flew it!
Simply put...How pretty, or what color the airplane is can affect your score but definitely only in the appearance judging...Of course that's not unimportant and is likely the only thing that kept Joe from scoring in the high 580's or more!
The idea that the color of an airplane will influence your flight scores with the judges is, to put it bluntly, LUDICROUS!!!
If the flier can not see the airplane my only question is why would he use it?
Randy Cuberly
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The most successful stunt plane of all time was painted pink and faded flourescent yellow, so I think that's what you should all do. Happy? I am sure it was a coincidence that it was also in perfect trim and had nearly infallible engine runs.
Brett
It was bright enough that everyone could keep an eye on it. Think about it. It also helps that Paul is superman
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One of our club members used a profile 46 size airplane, (His own design) to WIN Beginners and Intermediate the following year at the Nats. His airplane had NO color. Clear over balsa and clear iron-on covering on the wings. Only color was his black AMA # on the wing. His focus was size, shape, & consistency. "Color can wait till I get good....The time spent on a dazzling paint job could be better spent on practice and becoming a better flyer." His quote.
Then there is an older post of a Guy who flew an orange Sig Twister through the stunt ranks to Expert, winning many times with the same plane.
You have received some good advice in the previous posts. Use it to your advantage. Paint your plane as you wish, just be sure YOU can see it in various conditions and backgrounds. Locate a good coach and PRACTICE. Hope to see you soon moving through the stunt ranks.
Good luck & "Tight Lines!" H^^
Wes
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As most have stated, paint the plane the color you like, but concentrate on building straight and light. Then get a coach and go practice. The only time I had a score down graded after taking a big lead in first round flight was when there was a change of judges in second round. I was immediately moved from first to fourth place with a pattern everybody thought as well as myself was better than first round. When I questioned the judges after the contest I was told by one judge that he didn't like the out line of my plane. So I won't fly in front of that person again. D>K
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It is said that Red's are the colors to use for high scores
Well, notwithstanding the obvious......
It seems very probable that a lot of guys who fly this stuff to a high level like to decorate their planes with red.
Which obviously doesn't mean that the judges have a bias toward the red planes. I don't know Red so I don't really know if Red's planes get the high scores being claimed for him.
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Then there is an older post of a Guy who flew an orange Sig Twister through the stunt ranks to Expert, winning many times with the same plane.
That sounds like my brother.
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Well, notwithstanding the obvious......
It seems very probable that a lot of guys who fly this stuff to a high level like to decorate their planes with red.
Which obviously doesn't mean that the judges have a bias toward the red planes. I don't know Red so I don't really know if Red's planes get the high scores being claimed for him.
most of the "REDs" that I know, or remember were "hers",, maybe that is why you dont know Red?
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In years past there was discussion as to whether the particular dazzling paint scheme on PW's Impact made it look like it turned better. The bright fluorescent red front end and the fluorescent yellow rear of the plane were thought by some to help the look of the tightness of the corners. Just saying. .... me, I like blue .....
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most of the "REDs" that I know, or remember were "hers",, maybe that is why you dont know Red?
Shewt. I'm married to a redhead. Now. She wasn't when we got married...............
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The most successful stunt plane of all time was painted pink and faded flourescent yellow, so I think that's what you should all do. Happy? I am sure it was a coincidence that it was also in perfect trim and had nearly infallible engine runs.
Brett
Still to this day, the most incredible patterns I have ever seen flown. It's the level of perfection that I have been striving for most of my life. I feel like I get close every once in a while but I just can't make myself paint a hot pink airplane....again.
Derek
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I won't go into all the details but this discussion started about my new plane. Yes, there is some red on it... I do not have any thought, other than my own preferences, when I design my paint schemes. For example, the matrix didn't look all that special in the air. It was designed to be admired in the 180 building.
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I won't go into all the details but this discussion started about my new plane. Yes, there is some red on it... I do not have any thought, other than my own preferences, when I design my paint schemes. For example, the matrix didn't look all that special in the air. It was designed to be admired in the 180 building.
THats one of the issues I labor over actually, I try really hard to think about what it looks like in the air, and then add some visual interest for when people approach it up close,, NONE of which really affects scoring and all, more about personal satisfaction.
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Shewt. I'm married to a redhead. Now. She wasn't when we got married...............
My ex was a redhead ,,, not when we married but certainly when we divorced so,, yeah,, draw your own conclusions
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The more relevant thing for us over 75 crowd is whether we can get through the over head 8 without vertigo, and through the clover before our back gives out. After that color is the game changer. LOL
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THats one of the issues I labor over actually, I try really hard to think about what it looks like in the air, and then add some visual interest for when people approach it up close,, NONE of which really affects scoring and all, more about personal satisfaction.
Well, you do a great job at it. I love looking at your planes.
Derek
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Tom,
I can tell you how to absolutely get higher scores because of the colors you pick!
Be sure to lay them down over the most well prepared air frame you are capable of.
Then you may pick up a few more appearance points.
W.W.
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If the flier can not see the airplane my only question is why would he use it?
Randy Cuberly
Hi Randy,
you miss the point with a Dazzle camo scheme - everyone can see it ......... that is part of the reason for using it. The other point is that it hides intentions to outside observers.
Now the pilot knows the models intentions since they are in control, they can 'see' the model with no issues - same with the captains of those WWI Allied ships, they knew course and heading but any distanced onlooker readily confused it.
So if you accept that there now is a scale of colours and schemes, ranging from the absurd 'Dazzle' to Paul Walkers 'Hey look at me' Mexican Pinyata look and anything in between that effect perception, is it not reasonable to believe that lack of perception equates to lack of score?
Silhouette plays a part with perception too, try and judge a square corner done perfectly by a combat wing (or say a Fierce Arrow) as compared to the arrow like length of a F2B model.
Similarly colour patterns like speed lines or artefacts drawn parallel to the direction of travel help define direction.
Some colours make an object appear smaller than it really is, some do the opposite - hence the love of florescent paints, they reflect more of a single wavelength and get 'noticed.'
Speed also determines perception, do an otherwise perfect pattern at 2 second lap times and then look soulfully at the judges for a good score!
The other part of the equation is consciously most accept that judges do the best they can but unconsciously, well ...... without looking for an argument here, some people sometimes suspect otherwise, and they begin to wonder - hence this thread.
Thanks.
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I may as well weigh in on this subject. My first big Bearcat was painted the Blue Angels color scheme. Nice enough finish, but primarily blue. My partner, Jim Welch also did a sister Bearcat with the "Beetle Bomb" yellow scheme. Almost as nice a finish. When the appearance judging was over, Jim got a deserved 17 points and my Blue Angels Bearcat got 14 points. What a shock! Wondered whose cornflakes I pee'd in? My second Bearcat was painted with the eagles head on the front in the Red, White and Blue pattern I have used to adnauseum in some people's opinion. Not only did the apperance points jump to 18-19 points, but the flying scores were significantly better. I always felt like the judges gave me and extra 20 points better than my flying deserved. At least that was my conclusion.
BTW, my friend Jack Picher and I discussed Blue planes and his observation was that his plane at the Nats was in the 6th row with a lot other blue planes. His assertion was that bright planes just score better. That is my opinion, too. I'll probably never have another mostly blue plane.
Pat Johnston
Color Opinions
Skunk Works
Skunk Works
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As a long time competitor ànd someone who has won a few Concours awards, I figured that I might be qualified to reply. First off I think that colors can affect scores. Especially for appearance points, for flying points, not so much. Granted, if your model is orange and one of the judges really likes orange, his scores might be biased higher. Then again if a judge hates orange you might be out of luck. What is more important is choosing colors that when put together are appealing. I once had an artist ask me if I had ever studied art, as I had a real gift for being able to use color combinations that blended together in a unique way that was very pleasing. No training, just blind dumb luck. Any way since 2013 I won the Concours at the Northwest Regional 3 ftimes (2013, 2014 & 2015), Prairie Fire and Golden State in 2016. The awards were with 4 different models with 4 different paint schemes. Snowbird Crossfire ( red, white, blue and black) , the polar bear Crossfire ( grey, dark blue,white lettering and a polar bear standing on an ice floe mural on the tail) the maple leaf Crossfire ( grey, dark blue, white lettering and various colored maple leaves scattered randomly on the model), and lastly the Divergent (white, gun metal silver, black and burnt orange). So color can and should be whatever you like but remember that others are going to be looking at it also and some of them will be judging you. Try and think about coming up with a scheme and colors that appeal to a wide variety of tastes. I also try to keep to the 5 color max rule. Too many different colors can have a detrimental affect on what we are trying to accomplish
I've judged a lot over the years and could care less about what color a model is or what shape profile it has. I just want to see how it and the pilot fly the pattern. I believe that is what all judges should try to do and not be influenced by anything else.
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I am so glad that the conversations turned to be a more respectable....I feel it wasn't a silly thing to ask....yes I am a beginner and will be coming up the ranks. I have always had "hand me down planes" for the last 2 seasons. This past winter, with help from Sparky, I have two planes I built this winter and have maintained the high quality of build.....I have covered all the 5 attributes of a good flying plane, which I learned from Bob Hunt. With that said....I am now in the stage of finishing with color. This thread has taught me alot by reading the responses.
I am striving to get the best points I can.....and if color comes into play.....I will re-think my planes schemes
I have a P-40 and Stuka.....I have already purchased color and they are black, dark green, greys.....I will have to stay with what I got. I will try to use some type of bright colors on the tails and nose art on the front to help out.
I have future planes ready to build as I progress up the ladder.....one is Randy Smith's Vector 40 and Envoy 6 by Allen Brickhaus. I will building from scratch off their plans. I will be using the color schemes from the info I recieved from this thread. I thank the people that gave good advise for me.....I have to plan way a head to be able to purchase as the budgets allow.....I start a build once everything has been purchased from start to finish.....at least now I have some ideas on colors I need to use and adjust the budget for paint....once again thank you.
Now.....I don't care if you are the World Champion or beginner......I treat everyone with respect and I don't let people intimidate me because of their stature in the sport we do.....I don't treat people like that and I will not be treated like that. Yes I need to practice, yes I need good coaching, yes I need to trim, yes I need to work on flying.....I know these things.....when I ask a question I shouldn't be looked or talked down on because I am not an upper class or level like your some are. I look up to you guys for guidance so I can become an upper classman and to better myself. So all this silly and doesn't matter @#$%....does matter and is not silly to me.
If I start to act like that and tell beginners not to talk till they show me that they deserve to be here and I am part of group that has their clicks....please shoot me in the head with a gun.....we should all be lucky that we even have new people coming .....if we didn't then our C/L stunt would be nothing no more. I am done bitching and hope I made a point.
I REALLY APPRECIATE for the guys to help me understand that there is more than, just color that looks cool.....to me it as important as choosing contest Balsa.
I am thankful and blessed that C/L has found me once again in a point of my life of using skills I have acquired from my absence of Stunt flying.....some say I am addicted.....LOL....have to say YEP on that......
I
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no offense, I don't think this is silly.....it gives me a direction I may turn to as what I will choose for a Scheme and color. I am asking cause I am a beginner, close to going to intermediate, so it does matter to me now starting out. It is another skill into the progression for me into the stunt flying I need to think about.
Apparently talking about this subject might be read by a judge and he, himself will be more aware of to really study and look a little close and have in the back of his mind that color could have some play.
How do you fly when the back ground is dark from tree shadows that it can physically have effect on your relations to the ground of what eye perceives where the plane is located?
Just wanted to get a census from fellow modelers.
No offense, I will not be like you.......I will do it 5 years or less.... you don't know who or what I am, as I don't know you
I am sorry if sometimes I ask silly stuff......sometimes the smartest people ask silly stuff. I was raised that there is know such thing as a silly question.
I didn't start this thread to cause problems for other modelers. It was something I read and now I am trying to learn something, I don't think that is silly
I think at the start of the season that a judge might read this and really try to remember a dark color plane verse's a light color plane flown by the same guy as he judged and see if there is a different how the maneuver looks , even in the intersection.
I am curious to watch fellow flyers with different color planes this year and judge for myself
Tom,
You sound like a serious flier so I'll let you in on a little secret! In this post you're talking to a National Champion Stunt flier and an engineer that just happens to be one of the smartest guys around. Oh yeah He's also a very nice Gentleman and is only trying to help you past the usual "hurdles" that we often see with beginners and intermediate fliers. Ignore him at your own peril!
Randy Cuberly
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I am so glad that the conversations turned to be a more respectable....I feel it wasn't a silly thing to ask....yes I am a beginner and will be coming up the ranks.
(Clip)
I am striving to get the best points I can.....and if color comes into play.....I will re-think my planes schemes
(Clip)
Now.....I don't care if you are the World Champion or beginner......I treat everyone with respect and I don't let people intimidate me because of their stature in the sport we do.....I don't treat people like that and I will not be treated like that. Yes I need to practice, yes I need good coaching, yes I need to trim, yes I need to work on flying.....I know these things.....when I ask a question I shouldn't be looked or talked down on because I am not an upper class or level like your some are. I look up to you guys for guidance so I can become an upper classman and to better myself. So all this silly and doesn't matter @#$%....does matter and is not silly to me.
If I start to act like that and tell beginners not to talk till they show me that they deserve to be here and I am part of group that has their clicks....please shoot me in the head with a gun.....we should all be lucky that we even have new people coming .....if we didn't then our C/L stunt would be nothing no more. I am done bitching and hope I made a point.
I REALLY APPRECIATE for the guys to help me understand that there is more than, just color that looks cool.....to me it as important as choosing contest Balsa.
I am thankful and blessed that C/L has found me once again in a point of my life of using skills I have acquired from my absence of Stunt flying.....some say I am addicted.....LOL....have to say YEP on that......
Tom,
I think you need to turn down your sensitivity meter. I personally know Brett and many of the others here that you feel have somehow belittled you for asking your questions about color schemes affecting your flight scores. I am sure they will all subscribe to the thought that there is no such thing as a dumb question except for the one that is not asked. Brett's responses were categorizing the idea that paint schemes affect a flight score into the realm of the inane, not that it was a silly question. I did not find that his and other responses have put you down in any way.
In your first post, you commented "I feel it is wrong to have a certain color to get higher or lower scores as you are flying your event." Your question appears to show that you have witnessed that "a certain color [can] get higher or lower scores". Do you have any information to support that statement? Or is it just a "theory"?
Then you asked "Do any of you know if a Camo paint scheme has won the Nats?" Floyd Carter did post a comment that my Focke Wulf won at the Nats. (It also placed 5th at two previous Nats.) This model was painted with the German gray and green top and light blue bottom. I also had a semi scale P-40Q with olive drab top and gray bottom qualify at another Nats. There have been any number of other pilots flying models with various camouflage paint schemes that have done well at the Nats. Al Rabe won Open at the Nats twice (including the Walker Cup once) with his Sea Fury using the standard Royal Navy paint scheme. Dave Hemstrought placed well one year (after placing first in his qualifying circle) with a semiscale model painted in standard British camouflage colors. Frank McMillan flew his Martin Baker MB 5 with British camouflage colors (dark green and dark gray top with light gray bottom) and placed well at several Nats and at least one Team Trials. His Martin Baker also won the Super Seventies at the 2016 VSC and 2nd at that 2017 VSC. There have been any number of good pilots flying their camouflaged painted models that have placed well at the Nats and other major contests for the past 50 years.
The key phrase in the last sentence above is "good pilots". Heed the advice of Brett and others that your concerns should be building a good airplane, triming it well, and practice. You have not been "looked or talked down on because [you are] not an upper class or level like your some are." Nor should you feel that way.
You commented "if color comes into play.....I will re-think my planes schemes". You write as if you do not yet comprehend that the main thing to learn from this thread is that color has little effect on flight scores. Color becomes a matter of your own personal taste. Having judged at all levels of competition (local, regional, Team Trials, Nats and World Championships) for more than 50 years, unless there is something going on with my understanding of how the pattern is to be flown, I feel certain that color/paint schemes do not affect how a maneuver is scored. I could go on at length about why some ideas that design, paint and paint schemes affect flight scores are wrong based on my experiences. But that is beyond the scope of this thread.
Keith
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Now.....I don't care if you are the World Champion or beginner......I treat everyone with respect and I don't let people intimidate me because of their stature in the sport we do.....I don't treat people like that and I will not be treated like that. Yes I need to practice, yes I need good coaching, yes I need to trim, yes I need to work on flying.....I know these things.....when I ask a question I shouldn't be looked or talked down on because I am not an upper class or level like your some are. I look up to you guys for guidance so I can become an upper classman and to better myself. So all this silly and doesn't matter @#$%....does matter and is not silly to me.
For goodness sake, what are you talking about? I am not talking down to you, I am providing the information you asked for and suggesting a better way to spend your time. People get caught up in these sorts of strange ideas, and because I have worked through them myself - and you haven't, yet - I was trying help you avoid the same issue. Yes - silly mental traps. Everybody does it to one degree or another. There are far larger issues what you will run across later, that are far more pernicious. If you ignore them and concentrate on what *you* are doing, and don't worry about what other people might do, you will be much further ahead.
And in fact, the color of the airplane *does not matter* to getting flight judging or scoring, at least not to the judges. What do you want me to say, that it does? Lie to you?
Worry about flying patterns accurately, don't worry about side issues. That still seems like pretty good advice, to me. I have told A LOT of other people the same thing and they didn't become incensed about it. Ted Fancher has told me the same thing many times, as have numerous others, it certainly helped me and I figured it would help you. You aren't compelled to do anything anyone says, it's entirely in your hands.
Brett
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Still to this day, the most incredible patterns I have ever seen flown. It's the level of perfection that I have been striving for most of my life. I feel like I get close every once in a while but I just can't make myself paint a hot pink airplane....again.
Derek
In this case, you could argue it was "in spite of" instead of "because of" the color. It looks a lot better in context- next to that trophy:
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In this case, you could argue it was "in spite of" instead of "because of" the color. It looks a lot better in context- next to that trophy:
Well, that was the very early 90's...
Derek
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Derek....I'm old, but believe that it was '99 or 2000?
Judging Paul flying that plane......the first outside square had me convinced that we were going to soon be picking up pieces of florescent stuff....
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As an expert level flier and experienced judge I can tell you with conviction that the color or even size or shape of the airplane has little or no effect on scores. The size shape and placement of the maneuvers is what counts.
Any who don't believe that need to go watch Joe Gilbert fly a pattern with his Ringmaster that is not particularly pretty, outstanding in color, or even easy to fly!
He scored at the recent VSC in Classic in the high 560's to 570's with patterns that were simply very well flown with an unimpressive airplane that became very impressive because of the way HE flew it!
Randy Cuberly
Particular attention should be paid to Randy's post above. To state that Joe Gilbert's Ringmaster at this 2017 VSC is "not particularly pretty" is a monumental understatement. Flying that Ringmaster, Joe won the VSC OTS event. (And he beat me by two points - 618 to 616. I then judged the Classic event at this same VSC and Joe had the privilege of flying in front of me with that same not-so-pretty Ringmaster in Classic.) That not-so-pretty Ringmaster placed third in Classic, only to Nats caliber flying and models with concours winning appearances. I do not know how my score compared to the other judge for the one flight he flew in front of me or compared to the other two sets of judges for his other two flights. I do remember he got good scores from me compared to the flights I judged during those three days of competition on all of his maneuvers from take off to the landing. I was not the least bit surprised to see him in 3rd place against some really good competition. I feel confident that all I saw when he was flying was an object executing the maneuvers very well regardless of the fact I told Joe after the OTS event that his Ringmaster was "butt ugly" which he agreed with and anyone who saw it would concur.
Not only did Joe win 1st in OTS and 3rd in Classic, he was awarded the overall "Eagle Award" given at VSC for the best combined performance in the OTS and Classic/Super Seventies events, all with that same Ringmaster.
(And I have not let that second place in OTS that he put me in this year bother me the least bit. I have totally discarded that experience and have not thought of it since.)
Keith
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Orange an unfair advantage. White anywhere on your plane should be penalized.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Derek....I'm old, but believe that it was '99 or 2000?
Judging Paul flying that plane......the first outside square had me convinced that we were going to soon be picking up pieces of florescent stuff....
Rich, I'm old too, but I think Paul was pretty busy with a B-17 at the time you mention. That picture is at the '92 NATS. I wasn't flying in 1992 but I have seen the model and it was pretty long in the tooth.
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Rich, I'm old too, but I think Paul was pretty busy with a B-17 at the time you mention. That picture is at the '92 NATS. I wasn't flying in 1992 but I have seen the model and it was pretty long in the tooth.
The tipoff is where it says "1992" in the file name!
Brett
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OH! Really? ;D
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deleted -- duplicate post
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Tom, it was not a silly question at all. When a person thinks they know all the answers, they just haven't asked all the questions.
Mike
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Tom is long gone from this thread ....
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Tom is long gone from this thread ....
Nope not gone..... I stay where I am when I start something right or wrong.........just reading comments.....soak it all in and trying to learn something.
I do like the pic of the 1992 Impact . The color concept was a good choice for a visual. Thank you
I thought of etched anodize metal, (that looks like florescent black lite colors) with a chrome clear appearance with checker board on the tips and complete elevator
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Nope not gone..... I stay where I am when I start something right or wrong.........just reading comments.....soak it all in and trying to learn something.
I do like the pic of the 1992 Impact . The color concept was a good choice for a visual. Thank you
I thought of etched anodize metal, (that looks like florescent black lite colors) with a chrome clear appearance with checker board on the tips and complete elevator
That's an interesting idea, how would you do that with normal materials? I have use actual foil in several cases but it's impractical for this application in more than the tiniest amounts.
Brett
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That's an interesting idea, how would you do that with normal materials? I have use actual foil in several cases but it's impractical for this application in more than the tiniest amounts.
Brett
Brett,
Years ago, and I mean years ago, there was this R/C modeler who used the etched sheets that printers use to skin his Warbird.
I never paid that much attention to it, but there was an article. I don't do a great deal of reading, not then and not now, so I'm really not informed as to what this modeler actually did?
I'll be looking for "thin" aluminum sheets soon. I'm thinking of "skinning" just the LE and the control surfaces on a model and using anodizing to match a Tru-Turn spinner.
See what results I get when I do some research for thin aluminum stock, or for the printers sheets.
Also, Someone, sorry I forgot who, but I was told Dupli-Color has a foax anodize look in an aerosol can.
I'll look into that also when the time comes.
Anyone ahead of me on this, I would like to hear from you.
CB
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You don't have to look very hard: http://www.scaleaero.com/flitemetal.htm
I've seen some amazing jets done with this stuff, no idea on the weight.
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Speaking as a judge:
First, choosing a truly ugly color, or a really unappealing color scheme, will affect your appearance score if you compete somewhere that does appearance judging. You asked about camo: personally, I'd probably give lower appearance scores to a nice realistic flat camo scheme, because flat colors hide imperfections. Others would argue, but appearance is left to the judges. If you want to score high with me with camo, make it super-shiny camo. If you want to score high with flat camo, compete in scale.
Second, to a judge, when you're flying, your plane appears as a little fast-moving streak in the sky -- judges are not admiring your paint scheme when you're flying, they're watching the shapes you're carving in the sky.
Second-and-a-half: About the only way that you can impact your flight scores with the finish is to paint your plane light gray and compete in the Pacific Northwest, or paint it sky blue and compete anywhere else. Then, we won't be able to see your plane against the sky, and you'll probably get lower scores. You don't have to be super high visibility, but I have to see it.
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You don't have to look very hard: http://www.scaleaero.com/flitemetal.htm
I've seen some amazing jets done with this stuff, no idea on the weight.
George,
I've used Flite-Metal. It's flexible and is adhesive backed. Conforms to the surface it's burnished on. Great stuff.
However, it cannot be anodized.
There are thin aluminum sheets used for many applications, like flashing as one example. For my LE, it would be a wrap, so the aluminum sheet would have to hold the shape.
If I can pull this off, the look would be great. IMHO.
CB
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Brett,
Years ago, and I mean years ago, there was this R/C modeler who used the etched sheets that printers use to skin his Warbird.
I never paid that much attention to it, but there was an article. I don't do a great deal of reading, not then and not now, so I'm really not informed as to what this modeler actually did?
There are a number of methods that use actual foil or litho plate (formerly available at newspaper printers but not any more). They work well but they are prohibitively heavy for our application.
I have a few projects that I have been wanting to do (scale) for 40+ years. Every few years, I hear about another method to simulate a bare metal surface and I try it, but so far i haven't found one that I could get good results with that wasn't also absurdly heavy.
Brett
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There are a number of methods that use actual foil or litho plate (formerly available at newspaper printers but not any more). They work well but they are prohibitively heavy for our application.
I have a few projects that I have been wanting to do (scale) for 40+ years. Every few years, I hear about another method to simulate a bare metal surface and I try it, but so far i haven't found one that I could get good results with that wasn't also absurdly heavy.
Brett
Brett,
There are materials available that could work. As an artist and sign painter, I used "Silver" leaf many times for a variety of looks and applications. Has to be applied with "size" but an hr. or so of practice nails it. No real build up in weight. You can mask edges and pull to create panels AND this stuff can be burnished over vinyl materials like rivets.
I also used it for background areas of paintings. No photos with art and silver leaf, but I do have this photo where I used gold leaf as a background. I did the same kind of art with the silver leaf, just about the same thing.
A search will probably bring up plenty of retailers for it. Most art shops would carry it. The stuff is inexpensive.
CB
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SNIP.
I would also note that the premise (red airplanes score better) is demonstrably false, as most National Championship airplanes over the last 30 have been predominately white base colors, with a few yellow and one purple.
Brett
Might also be worth pointing out that the purple Nats winner also won the national championships a few years earlier when it was white with red and blue trim. Trust me, Brett isn't trying to be argumentative just for the heck of it. He's demonstrably correct.
FWIW, I've judged a lot over the years and pretty much consciously defocus my eyes (i.e. I don't stare at the airplane no matter what it's color) on the airplane but, rather, follow its path, during maneuvers allowing peripheral vision of the moving path of the airplane to be the focus of my attention. Combined with a still head during the maneuvers the shapes and concentricity of that path (what the pilot is supposed to be doing) become the primary images going to my brain. I fly pretty much the same way, by the way.
Having said that, a ship painted in camouflage colors flying against a background of similar colors might be a good or bad thing. It might make it more difficult to follow peripherally but at the same time tend to "camouflage" errors. Is that a plus or a minus?
Ted
p.s. Psychologically, if you believe that the color makes a difference you should probably investigate it to your satisfaction to eliminate the wrong color for being blamed for bad scores. Which is pretty much what we all do with everything we do to try to win plastic trophies!
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In this case, you could argue it was "in spite of" instead of "because of" the color. It looks a lot better in context- next to that trophy:
OMG!!!! Did he actually fly that thing in public!!!!!!!! n~ n~
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At the 1970 Nats they still used US Navy judges.
Some flyers used red white and blue American colors.
Some used navy blue to stroke the Navy judges.
A Nazi camo plane won.
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Having said that, a ship painted in camouflage colors flying against a background of similar colors might be a good or bad thing. It might make it more difficult to follow peripherally but at the same time tend to "camouflage" errors. Is that a plus or a minus?
Ted
p.s. Psychologically, if you believe that the color makes a difference you should probably investigate it to your satisfaction to eliminate the wrong color for being blamed for bad scores. Which is pretty much what we all do with everything we do to try to win plastic trophies!
The latter bit is of course the reason I was trying to steer people away from that. Since it doesn't have any consequential effect, you don't want people to go off on that tangent and spend a few years (or a few decades in a few obvious pathological cases) blaming mysterious outside forces for their results.
I think the premise coming in was that the color would camouflage mistakes from the judges, but if it was true, it would camouflage it even better for the pilot. It definitely *does* matter to the pilot whether you can see it or not (as noted previously) and it is much easier for the judges to see the airplane well enough to score it. So, if it's good enough to hide from the judges, the pilot is going to be completely incapable of flying it precisely. Which leads back to the basic premise, do whatever is necessary to make the airplane and pilot fly better and/or easier, that will make the geometric shapes better, and that WILL greatly affect the scores,
Brett
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What every one seems to be forgetting, is no matter the planes paint scheme, one must wear white pants, a solid color shirt, red, blue, green or yellow, but not orange and white Nike's or New Departure's. High zoot sun glasses and an appropriate ball cap with a great logo of some long lost club from the 50's or an engine mfr logo. If nothing else, you will attract snide comments. H^^ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ #^ y1
Or a black polo shirt, jeans, and a rubber horse head:
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The best way to approach this is to choose a scheme and color combination that YOU will like. You will be the one who spends the most time looking at your plane. Yes you should choose colors that wont disappear in green backgrounds if you have to fly where trees are close in the background. But I would only give that weight if you have to fly there ALL of the time and the trees are really close.
In the end you build your plane for YOU not the judges, not your flying buddies or anyone else, it is your plane paint it however you like. Then fly the crap out of it.
At the beginner level it would be a good idea to choose a simple two color scheme with a few trim lines and practice application and how to keep it light. I noted the part where you said you will be coming up the ranks in 5 years. That is certainly possible and I hope you succeed in your mission. If your flying is going to top notch in 5 years your building AND finishing will have to be there as well. Not only do you have to build it straight and light you will need to finish it well and keep it light. Pick simple schemes to hone your craft quickly. Pick the colors you want and go burn some fuel.
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:! Hmm, Baron Von Richthofens ( The Red Baron) plane was red and he got the highest score ! (PE**)
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I should not comment---- I am strictly a spectator and "fun for me fly only" guy-----BUT I have been to many many contests regionally and Nats.... long before they were a one place only event
Not too much you can do about local venues and ad hoc judges who may or may not have favorites and expectations other than you should tryy very hard to NOT----- BE THAT GUY...
I mean do not be:
Late, slow, arrogant, argumentative in the pilots meeting, asking inane minutia questions in the pilots meeting, project a "chip on the shoulder" persona.....In other words, be the guy folks WANT to like
Always remember, it is a past time HOBBY----and the flying is SUPPOSED to be FUN and provide not only YOU-- but others enjoyment
I seriously doubt any Jim Walker, Brett Buck level flyer has ever left the circle-- after a poor flight--- and thought -- "the judges screwed me because my plane was not the right color"....
IMO guys N Gals who are wired into top level competition are much more critical of their own skill and performance and consciously adjust for every regional and national venue. The also tend to see if there are trends and exploit them
As evidenced here in two pages...the top guys have all NOTED that the ultimate color scheme only need accomplish 3 things...
Be good enough for as many appearance score points as possible;
Stand out enough for YOU to see and pilot well with minimal distraction in all manner of backgrounds;
Be appropriately visible to the judges for same reasons
I have personally seen more than one flight where the pilot NAILED some particular maneuver enough so to off set any lower appearance point score
I have also witnessed a lot of flights that got high scores while I watched and thought...... that is one ugly ass airplane
But hell what do I know... a guy in a Clown suit, on a Unicycle, Juggling chain saws, and doing the PAMPA gig is jut plain fun to watch
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I have no idea if the color of a model has any influence on a judge watching it go through the pattern. However, after spending my life in sales and marketing, I can tell you that colors have a tremendous influence on buying decisions.
Mike
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Derek....I'm old, but believe that it was '99 or 2000?
Judging Paul flying that plane......the first outside square had me convinced that we were going to soon be picking up pieces of florescent stuff....
Sorry, don't believe him.
It was taken in 1992, a good year.
Color stood out in Europe where the site was surrounded by trees. On purpose!
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The question asked was does it matter what color your airplane is. My opinion is that the answer is no, it is irrelevant, and that you should avoid this and the many other similar traps that people fall into again and again. No one is compelled to pay any attention - maybe I am wrong. Probably not, I have been doing this forever and have seen these traps and have fallen into a few myself, but got out when I paid attention to people with more experience.
I would think people who are unsure of themselves need clear information about what matters and what does not, and the worst thing anyone could do is encourage them in their insecurities. Stunt is as simple as it gets, and I hope people can get that.
What do you want? I have flown in large contests for decades and judged around 10,000 flights from all skill levels, they asked for an opinion and I gave one, and now you are arguing about it. Should I tell you that it's really important, even though it isn't?
The most successful stunt plane of all time was painted pink and faded flourescent yellow, so I think that's what you should all do. Happy? I am sure it was a coincidence that it was also in perfect trim and had nearly infallible engine runs.
Brett
Hi Brett,
in response to "What do you want?" I was hoping for something along the lines of -
I am only human, try my best, I recognise that others may have favourites etc. This would correspond to my own observations in life about judging, making decisions and giving a personal score on anything.
To me a good judge recognises their foibles, regards their own traits, works around them and gives a considered decision taking into account ALL the evidence.
In other words not a 'black and white' answer concerning colour (excuse the pun) but instead we get absolutes like 'LUDICROUS', 'irrelevant' and its a 'waste of time.'
It sounded like you totally discount the notion before giving it any credence by saying that it doesn't matter, yet it obviously matters, and is in the minds of those who you are judging. A total lack of discrimination is a lofty goal to aim for but very hard to attain, and at times seems an inhuman destination.
But please, I accept that you indeed bypass colour preference as a learned response, and wow I wish I had that filter in my head at times!
My fervent hope here is that you and other judges take into account EVERYTHING presented for judging and only then discount what is irrelevant to your task at hand, not the other way around.
The issue from here on in is how to quantify all of this, how does ones show proof of bias in all of this?
To sum up it seems that , "The masses suspect but the Clergy of the stunt world admit nothing."
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To me a good judge recognises their foibles, regards their own traits, works around them and gives a considered decision taking into account ALL the evidence.
In other words not a 'black and white' answer concerning colour (excuse the pun) but instead we get absolutes like 'LUDICROUS', 'irrelevant' and its a 'waste of time.'
It sounded like you totally discount the notion before giving it any credence by saying that it doesn't matter, yet it obviously matters, and is in the minds of those who you are judging.
No one has ever been compelled to do anything I say, if I am so clearly wrong, by all means, do anything you want. And, since it "obviously* matters, it's a great compliment to me (and Ted and David and whoever else) that I have managed to function successfully despite ignoring a relevant aspect of the hobby. And judge 10000+ flights without ever once realizing it.
The question was asked, does it matter, my *opinion* is that it does not and that the underlying logic, like you display above, can be a crippling impediment. Again, in my opinion, it is:
(1) not supported by anything I have seen over the last 40 years of intense study
(2) the thought process is an absolutely classic "trap" for people trying to advance themselves in the event. If you ever give into the (mistaken) notion that Given that anyone who can afford to travel to big contests can afford the best equipment ever available, and that no more than average physical skills are required to compete at any level, these sorts of psychological traps are far and away the biggest impediment to success. You see it all the time, it's the biggest reason that we don't have 50 people all competing at a US National/World championship level, rather than 10 or so.
My best advice (which I got from my mentor Ted Fancher, perhaps not verbatim but in concept) is that *you* control your own fate, so worrying about "what color airplane", "what color pants" - which is definitely believed to be a factor by some-, "what the judges are buying today", "getting your name noticed", "presenting better", "the judges are against me", "halos", etc, or any other factor outside your control is a distraction and a potential trap for everyone.
There are a raft of examples I could provide where people have outsmarted themselves with this kind of reasoning, some over the period of decades, and to their great detriment. I had a few cases of it myself, at a point where I was already competitive in Expert but not quite to the highest levels. Fortunately there were people around me to point it out (Ted) and get me sorted out, otherwise, I might be another of those guys our there sabotaging myself.
But as always, I can only tell you what I think, it could be wrong. A few people will probably pay heed, others will not, maybe they will be able to work through it themselves, or not.
Brett
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Orange
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Orange
Sweet! I guess I am all set to hammer the competition.
Oh wait.
Not.
I just remembered that flying good gets the good scores.
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Orange
OK, OK. That was too cute by half.
The phrase I used frequently (to which Brett referred) back when writing about stunt or giving clinics, etc. was more or less "...It's the pilot's job to fly and the judges' job to judge. Each will do the best they can and at the end of the day they should shake hands and say thanks; either for flying well or for working hard so the pilots could fly the best they are able." The results posted on the scoreboard are "the truth".
The entire process is so replete with variables (as is any subjectively performed/analyzed undertaking) and the results so dependent on essentially instantaneous performance and assessment as to make an informed analysis of the "performance/evaluation/causative reasons for variable "numbers" to be rendered meaningless.
IMHO...worth no more nor less than any other...time spent worrying about predicting the personal peccadilloes of the dozens if not hundreds of judges for whom an avid stunt pilot is going to present patterns over a lifetime is time that could have been better spent in joyful building, trimming and practicing.
I've no doubt that Chris is serious in his interest in such factors but I think it is ultimately telling that this thread is replete with input from knowledgeable sources that pretty much agree with the last few paragraphs. Chris is certainly free to pursue alternative points of view and I look forward to his ultimate analysis. If it is persuasive and backed with verifiable data I'd be happy to review it.
Actually, the crux of this subject is one that has led many of life long stunt fliers to take joy in participating for a lifetime. It is the "artistry" of the event that inoculates us against the (layman's) boredom of appearing to just do the same thing over and over again for decades. True artistry isn't doing something one way because it'll sell in the marketplace. It's doing something that makes the artist's heart swell and brings a smile to his face. That is unlikely to be the result of a lifetime sequence of orange Nobler clones.
Just my opinion.
Ted
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No offense, I will not be like you.......I will do it 5 years or less.... you don't know who or what I am, as I don't know you
It took me five years of hard work to get from beginner to under-Expert (under-Expert is when you're too good to fly in Advanced, but have no hope of actually placing in Expert). Had my body not failed me (shoulder and now gut issues) I think I could reasonably expert to occasionally place in Expert in local contests after another five years, and assuming that I don't age out before I get my skills up, win occasionally in another five. I may still manage it, if I can get my health issues straightened out.
The "hard work" was going out and putting in three to six flights every Wednesday and Saturday, and spending my free time in the shop building planes.
This is a much faster advance than I've seen most other people on this forum manage. That doesn't mean that it can't be done -- it's just that I haven't seen many other people climb that fast unless they're either retreads that just need to re-learn skills, or they're absolute phenoms like Chip Hyde who did RC Helicopter aerobatics, then picked up CLPA and within a year was flying better than me.
So while I laud your enthusiasm, please don't get discouraged if you don't climb the ranks as fast as you anticipate, or when (not if) you get squeezed out of Advanced and have to go without trophies in Expert for a few years.
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No offense, I will not be like you.......I will do it 5 years or less....
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Interesting how one comment can be interpreted in different ways.
One reading of this would indicate that Tom feels he is not like Brett, that it will only take him "5 years or less" to reach the pinnacle of the stunt world which took many at that level many more years to achieve. In my opinion, I feel that is rather presumptuous, but it is my opinion nonetheless.
Or, did Tom really mean that he was only going to pursue this CL Stunt activity for no more than 5 years? And then is he going on to other endeavors? Maybe he could give us a dissertation at that time on his findings on how color does or does not cloud/influence judges' scores.
Keith
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Apparently talking about this subject might be read by a judge and he, himself will be more aware of to really study and look a little close and have in the back of his mind that color could have some play.
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Just wanted to get a census from fellow modelers.
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I think at the start of the season that a judge might read this and really try to remember a dark color plane verse's a light color plane flown by the same guy as he judged and see if there is a different how the maneuver looks , even in the intersection.
I am curious to watch fellow flyers with different color planes this year and judge for myself
Your comments above deserve some response. And this is not intended to put you down in any way, so again, turn down your sensitivity meter.
You think that "this subject might be read by a judge and he, himself will be more aware of to really study and look a little close and have in the back of his mind that color could have some play." Have you read the responses in this thread from those who are experienced judges? I think their consensus is universal that they, as judges, are tracking the path of an object and score accordingly, regardless of the color.
Now, you are suggesting that judges remember what some guy flew one year and then think about the difference in the appearance in how a maneuver looks because it is painted differently. That is not the job of a judge. It is not to compare or remember how a flier is now flying compared to some distant past at some far away, forgotten circle.
So, I am very interested in your experience after this next year on your opinion on how "different color planes" affect how you, as a critical observer, might score.
Keith
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Orange
Orange works.
Keith
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If I do any judging this year, one thing I can tell you is that anything that looks like a quadcopter and is RED will get a very low score from me. In fact, it doesn't even have to be red, I'll even mark down a green one, or a blue one. ;D
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Sweet! I guess I am all set to hammer the competition.
Oh wait.
Not.
I just remembered that flying good gets the good scores.
Oh, Dear, Dan! I just re-read my comment about "...orange Nobler clones..." In a court of law I would plead ignorance of your lovely orange Nobler clone at the time of typing!
Good looking airplane. I had an orange and yellow "Chizler" that did pretty well in Classic for a number of years. Maybe Tom was right all along and Orange pigment is, in fact, the deciding factor! Better dust off your trophy shelves! ;D ;D
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Oh, Dear, Dan! I just re-read my comment about "...orange Nobler clones..." In a court of law I would plead ignorance of your lovely orange Nobler clone at the time of typing!
Good looking airplane. I had an orange and yellow "Chizler" that did pretty well in Classic for a number of years. Maybe Tom was right all along and Orange pigment is, in fact, the deciding factor! Better dust off your trophy shelves! ;D ;D
Not a Nobler clone!!
It's a Palmer Hurricane. In an actual color scheme.
It IS easy to see but isn't actually trimmed yet.
I'm a long way from getting any trophies with it but I'm excited that the color will automatically give me 30-50 points.
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Chris is certainly free to pursue alternative points of view and I look forward to his ultimate analysis. If it is persuasive and backed with verifiable data I'd be happy to review it.
Ted
Hi Ted,
I honestly think that is not possible to prove anything either way and it remains in the realm of subjective.
So inversely, can you show verifiable data that things like colour do not influence people? And I think that its not an alternate argument but indeed mainstream.
I have shown that colour, shape, speed, patterns and (in one case sound) indeed does alter opinions but to what extent?
How do you quantify it beyond suspicions and superstitions?
Do red ones go faster? If you believe they do then they do, and that's all that matters.
Do maroon models score badly because they disappear into a speed blur, some believe so, so they do.
Are some judges (or pilots) partially colour blind and don't realise to what extent - my vision isn't perfect.
I will leave you with this, I am a Graphic Artist of 38 years and colour is my field of expertise. To get something noticed use a colour that falls outside of the natural environment that it is presented in, to show direction or to lead the eye into the desired direction use repeated lines that point there, use shape to 'cartouche' or contain or focus the eye onto what is most important and use speed (as in what duration does the eye have to recognise something) as a guide to complexity.
The design of something will undeniably tell a message, whether its mobile or not, and the message will affect mood, but again, to what extent?
But I can guarantee you that if you videoed an F2B schedule, scored it and then computer changed the colour of the model the scores would change.
Ah, but this is the forever argument and I will leave it there, thanks for the reply mate.
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Orange
Now you're talkin'.
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Actually Chris, if you videotaped a pattern, scored it, and then didn't change any colors and ran it again, the score would change. Maybe not significantly, but last time I saw a wiggle in the 3rd loop and this time I noticed a waggle in the 2nd. We don't see perfectly. But, part of the joy of competition is that it is scored by subjective judges and sometimes there are wind gusts and other things happen. How boring life would be if the Cinderella team never won and the bookies were always perfectly accurate.
But still, no, red does not get a flyer a higher score from a judge. As a judge, he is (or should be) focusing on a dynamic of form, size, relationship, and consistency. He is not focusing on color any more than he focuses on other statics such as shape of tail.
By definition, if he is awarding points during the flight based on color or other static, he is not judging.
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Not a Nobler clone!!
It's a Palmer Hurricane. In an actual color scheme.
It IS easy to see but isn't actually trimmed yet.
I'm a long way from getting any trophies with it but I'm excited that the color will automatically give me 30-50 points.
Point taken Dan although (don't know if you're old enough to have experienced this) almost every "original" design in the classic era was an inexpert clone of George's original to one degree or another. On closer inspection, however, I note that the flaps are definitely "Palmer-esque" and distinctly not Noblerish. I, therefore, dutifully beg your forgiveness! It's a pretty Hurry.
Ted
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Point taken Dan although (don't know if you're old enough to have experienced this) almost every "original" design in the classic era was an inexpert clone of George's original to one degree or another. On closer inspection, however, I note that the flaps are definitely "Palmer-esque" and distinctly not Noblerish. I, therefore, dutifully beg your forgiveness! It's a pretty Hurry.
Ted
:)Well, I'm mostly aware that most designs from then were just Noblers in wolf clothing. This is bigger though.
I don't know what I'm doing but I do enjoy it.
I mentioned early on that it seems the best fliers tend to have a lot of red on their planes but that doesn't correlate to a bias toward the red planes.
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Morning everyone.....
I appreciate the response's on this thread. There are some great comments.
I want to respond to Trostle...... I will not QUIT flying in 5 years.....I am in for the long haul. Yes I made a comment at the start of this thread about doing it in 5 years.....in the heat of the moment cause I felt my question matters and wasn't silly.....it embarrassed me in front of people thinking I ask a stupid question!!!!
I set a goal now to become and advance flyer in 5 years.....not a world champ or National champ.
For thoughs who said to settle down and not get to sensitive......I am the only one who can defend myself and I don't think any question is silly. I am a beginner in flight,but I have a mind of advance. building and finishing is part of stunt flying as is flying scores. I want to design my plane with a plan of execution to delivery the best plane and advantages as I can for the highest score possibly. I know it is all in the skills of my hand to be able to sculpt the best flight and it takes hours of practice......that is what this year focus for me is to fly, fly,fly.....not worried about color right now cause it is too late cause I have warbirds and the colors are such.
The best meter I have is not sensitive meter.... it is my FUN METER!!!!
Chris Wilson has a great perspective on color as Avaiojet cause they are a graphic designers and understand the question. These two are just an example that comes to my mind as I am writing. There are more comments in this thread where guys have some great responses, sorry I didn't mention you.....you all are great fellow modelers which I look up too. Didn't mean to step on toes.....it wasn't my intention
This thread has taking me to some really cool designs using color......I have another tool I can use in designing......something I really never sit down to really think about that the color is just important as gluing the first piece of balsa together.
So I am really thankful for the comments on color and for the judges that also commented.....
Everybody tight lines and fair winds!!!!
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Tom,
Hey! It's "Avaiojet," not "Avoijet."
I can understand your interest in color.
My take is simple. Judges, it's not their first rodeo. I cannot imagine how color, layout or design of a model airplane can have an effect on their decision making of your flying performance.
And I don't believe they can be "tricked," with color or the absence of a rudder.
Experience? I would say Judges have been there done that.
I didn't read or follow the Thread in depth, but someone said to paint the model any color you want.
That sounds like really good advice to me.
Tom, what's your favorite color? What color or combination of colors will that color work with for accents?
I would start with that.
CB
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Morning everyone.....
I appreciate the response's on this thread. There are some great comments.
I want to respond to Trostle...... I will not QUIT flying in 5 years.....I am in for the long haul. Yes I made a comment at the start of this thread about doing it in 5 years.....in the heat of the moment cause I felt my question matters and wasn't silly.....it embarrassed me in front of people thinking I ask a stupid question!!!!
I set a goal now to become and advance flyer in 5 years.....not a world champ or National champ.
For thoughs who said to settle down and not get to sensitive......I am the only one who can defend myself and I don't think any question is silly. I am a beginner in flight,but I have a mind of advance. building and finishing is part of stunt flying as is flying scores. I want to design my plane with a plan of execution to delivery the best plane and advantages as I can for the highest score possibly. I know it is all in the skills of my hand to be able to sculpt the best flight and it takes hours of practice......that is what this year focus for me is to fly, fly,fly.....not worried about color right now cause it is too late cause I have warbirds and the colors are such.
The best meter I have is not sensitive meter.... it is my FUN METER!!!!
Chris Wilson has a great perspective on color as Avaiojet cause they are a graphic designers and understand the question. These two are just an example that comes to my mind as I am writing. There are more comments in this thread where guys have some great responses, sorry I didn't mention you.....you all are great fellow modelers which I look up too. Didn't mean to step on toes.....it wasn't my intention
For the one that said "ignore at my own peril".......what the hell was that all about???.....LOL....Am I in danger?? for defending myself and standing up for what I believe in, which is there is no such thing as a silly question......O my....I am in PERIL!!! .....HAHAHA.....thats funny as hell.....I am in peril
This thread has taking me to some really cool designs using color......I have another tool I can use in designing......something I really never sit down to really think about that the color is just important as gluing the first piece of balsa together.
What would I get if I Had a decal of a NAKED woman out of playboy magazine on my plane.....a breast on inboard and outboard of wing and the tail, well ya know what would be there.......LOL.....would that help my scores? LOL just kidding....we have kids and it would offend some people.....but what a concept.....LOL
Which girl should I use? LOL
So I am really thankful for the comments on color and for the judges that also commented.....
Everybody tight lines and fair winds!!!!
Tom,
I would suggest that you can best answer your questions by actually doing some judging! Get with an experienced judge at the next contest you attend and judge along with him. No discussion during judging but talk with him about your scores afterward and how they compare with his. An experienced judge will be able to tell you what you missed and what you saw that was good and probably why. Try to develop a method of looking at the shape, path, and position that the airplane makes and formulating it to a range of scores, then settling on an exact number. You will answer your own question by that experience and I personally feel you will then agree with the experienced people here that have "told it like it is". I guess it's a little like "walk a mile in my shoes", then tell me what you think!
When you can then stand with about 6 or 8 experienced judges and judge a flight, and all compare scores and all be within a fairly close range you will have your answer! It doesn't come easy however!
Randy Cuberly
PS: I think you'll find that it will also improve your flying ability!
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Tom,
That was a great post from Randy Cubberly just above and something we should have considered earlier inasmuch as you're asking re the impact on the judges' perceptions of the aircraft in flight. Give his suggestions some thought and, if the opportunity arrives, discuss it with a judge before a meet and see if they are amenable to (post competition) discussion. For a fair evaluation don't tell him precisely what it is you're evaluating. Then sit back and judge and make notes re the color of the airplanes and "your" thoughts as to how that color affected "you". Then see what the judge has to say when you ask what color the airplanes were and whether the hue had any impact of which they were aware.
FWIW, I just ran through several hundred of the pictures I've taken of stunt ships since the late 1950s--most heavily starting in the early 1960s when I started attending Nats and Team Trials (and a few World Championships). Without question the most common basic color is white. I expect that is because white and black go with "any" color and a black built up wing on a hot day can be a big problem (ask how I know if you're interested) so white is clearly the default base color for the majority although there is a good representation of black ones as well (including one of my first "pro" stunters).
Beyond those two I'd say that silvers of one sort or another were probably next most common and blues close behind. (Note, the vast majority utilized a large area of base color accompanied by a panoply of contrasting trim colors. In the US predominantly RW&B. Other countries seem to use a wide variety of trim colors on white bases, sometimes reflective of their countries flags and some not. A handful, such as the "purple" Walker Cup winner used a combination of a common "darkest" color brightened by the addition of a lightening base such as white, gold or silver for trim colors as appropriate to the darkest pigment.
There have been a number of bright colored winners over the years although multiple examples of Paul Walker and Dave Fitzgeralds' yellow/orange/candy/fluorescent versions might have spiked the percentage of same.
Re your "Camo" comment there have been any number of full camo paint jobs that flew to wins or very high finishes including those of Frank McMillan and Keith Trostle who specialize very effectively with such among others. there was one instance a couple of decades or so ago of an absolutely beautiful semi-scale Wild Cat that had a purposely "weathered" paint job that received very, very low appearance points because it wasn't shiny like the majority of the entries. After the appearance judging was over the shock of the competitors at the misdirected judge mentality that resulted in that score more than eliminated any chance that that low number (which doesn't appear on the judges' score sheets, by the way, but is added by the tabulators after each round) influenced maneuver scores from the flight judges.
So, for a very straight forward answer to your underlying concern I don't believe a cogent case could be made for any remotely verifiable color as the "best scoring" unless you wanted to say that, "obviously", it must be white because of its preponderance. Again, on my opinion that is primarily the result of pride of country and being a universally viable background for the flyer's favorite colors.
Finally, If you've anyone near to you or who might attend a contest in which you compete who has been a long time PAMPA member you be able to talk him/her into dragging along back "Nats" issues most of which have color pix of at least "The" Champ and, often, the top five and or all the class winners.
Hope this helps a bit.
Ted Fancher
With the exception of the obvious predominance of white base colors with a countless array of contrasting trims (albeit with the R,W,B noted above) I can't say that there is any "obvious" favoritism for "special" colors among those who were competitive in my active "career" (every Nats from 1964 through ~2007 plus judging a couple of years when Dave Fitz was the ED.
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I guess I'm finally bored to death reading all of this. There is many ways of achieving success to get to the top. First off is learning to build straight and light as a few learned that helps but doesn't really do the job. Finish /appearance is worth 20 points max no matter where you fly in AMA competition. I've watched guys polish their planes only to get a few more points then the guys like me that just paint and hope. Practice and a good coach is where the big difference is. Even the top guys have a coach or helper somewhere. Attending contests and flying in different parts of this great land will get a person noticed if they fly according to the book and empress the judges as well as fellow contestants.
Another plus is watching the top people on how they fly and when they are not busy talk to them face to face. Myself I now fly for the fun of it as in the past I have been very disappointed with the scores I have received, especially when I thought I had flown very well against some one whos bottoms are at 15 feet. Was told they were very smooth even though the tops of verticals were way behind their head. Well I'm done for now. R%%%% R%%%%
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Tom,
I would suggest that you can best answer your questions by actually doing some judging! Get with an experienced judge at the next contest you attend and judge along with him. No discussion during judging but talk with him about your scores afterward and how they compare with his. An experienced judge will be able to tell you what you missed and what you saw that was good and probably why. Try to develop a method of looking at the shape, path, and position that the airplane makes and formulating it to a range of scores, then settling on an exact number. You will answer your own question by that experience and I personally feel you will then agree with the experienced people here that have "told it like it is". I guess it's a little like "walk a mile in my shoes", then tell me what you think!
When you can then stand with about 6 or 8 experienced judges and judge a flight, and all compare scores and all be within a fairly close range you will have your answer! It doesn't come easy however!
Randy Cuberly
PS: I think you'll find that it will also improve your flying ability!
Scott Riese did me that favor the second year I was competing. I was shadow-judging and comparing my scores to the real judges: Scott stood next to me during Expert or Advanced and gave me a point-by-point discussion of what was good and bad about each maneuver.
(If you can't get someone to take the time to do this for you, shadow-judge. You can usually beg some blank score sheets from the tabulator, or just use blank paper. Write down what YOU thought the pilot made on each maneuver, then compare your score to the scoreboard. Better yet, ask pilots if you can look at their scoresheets and compare maneuver-by-maneuver.)
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Yes, great post by Randy and I agree that it will give you the best perspective.
Just as an aside here, I have seen black models sitting in the pits out in the severe Australian sun actually warp their wings whilst waiting for a flight.
And pure white models flown over snow - neither colour does the model any favours for the conditions they faced.
Good Luck Tom and please get back to us about your experiences.
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Yes, great post by Randy and I agree that it will give you the best perspective.
Just as an aside here, I have seen black models sitting in the pits out in the severe Australian sun actually warp their wings whilst waiting for a flight.
And pure white models flown over snow - neither colour does the model any favours for the conditions they faced.
Good Luck Tom and please get back to us about your experiences.
Love this post, Chris. That is exactly what happened to me. As a Junior I went to a contest in Spokane (eastern) Washington with my brother Gary to fly in stunt and proto speed. My stunt ship was a Veco Chief painted all black except for some thin light blue stripes (design plan via the width of the masking tape). Flew early in the morning when the temp was still quite moderate and left the Chief exposed to the elements while I went off to fly proto speed (at which I was a rank novice, flying a Regal Raider with an example of the most beautiful speed engine ever, a Dooling .29, in the nose.) Was there for quite a while while we went through whatever number of rounds there were and it got blazingly hot...high 90s and maybe 100 or more.
Went back to the stunt circle several hours later and noted, first, that I had scored well in the first round but wasn't quite on top so another flight was in order. Gary and I wandered over to the Chief and quickly noted that both wing panels appeared to be imitating a pretzel with the trailing edges and flaps be-twisted up not a little but a whole lot. After burning my fingers upon attempting to pick it up we eventually got it turned on to its back and, with Gary holding one wing and I the other twisted them as close to "just as far the opposite direction" as we could tell by eyeball and held them that way for what seemed like forever, once again exposed to the blazing sun...occasionally releasing pressure to check our progress. After some time we declared them "straight" again and we threw a blanket over it, hooked up the lines and flew the second flight.
I didn't recall the outcome but many years later the late great Don McClave brought up the story at dinner during a contest somewhere. Turns out he was there and remembered it because an adult stunt flyer (Don wasn't yet flying stunt) had complained to him about getting beat by a damn kid with crooked black wings.
So much for multiple incidence meters, I guess.
Ted
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Great story Ted.
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When you can then stand with about 6 or 8 experienced judges and judge a flight, and all compare scores and all be within a fairly close range you will have your answer! It doesn't come easy however!
Randy Cuberly
PS: I think you'll find that it will also improve your flying ability!
[/quote]
Will do Randy......that would be a good way to see the flights of pilots......I think it would be help my own pattern flying!!!!
Ted......that story you told made me laugh.....incident meter turned on my laugh meter.....
when I am on the tarmac.....I cover plane up or take it under my shade canopy is what I usually do.
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When you can then stand with about 6 or 8 experienced judges and judge a flight, and all compare scores and all be within a fairly close range you will have your answer! It doesn't come easy however!
Randy Cuberly
PS: I think you'll find that it will also improve your flying ability!
Will do Randy......that would be a good way to see the flights of pilots......I think it would be help my own pattern flying!!!!
Ted......that story you told made me laugh.....incident meter turned on my laugh meter.....
when I am on the tarmac.....I cover plane up or take it under my shade canopy is what I usually do.
What Ted *doesn't* mention is that we ended up doing exactly the same thing a few years, er, decades later, when we discovered one of our airplanes, for reasons still unexplained, had a fuselage that worked like a bi-metallic strip. For years, the airplane would fly great one day, and be all over the place the next. This went on for years, with both remarkable success, and frustrating and inexplicable out-of-trim sometimes. It acted like it was misaligned, but measure the alignment of the tail with respect to the wing in the garage, everything was perfect. Finally, it was a bad day again, and I got frustrated that we couldn't figure out why again, so I decided to check the alignment out at the site, just sitting in the pits. Tail was skewed by 1/4" - which was exactly what it had always acted like. We turned the airplane 180 degrees in the pits, waited 1/2 hour, and flew it again, and it flew fine again. Working backwards, I even convinced myself that the "bad" days, which tended to happen at some specific sites, and the good days, at different sites, was determined by which way they laid out the pits! At a particular site, the pits were always the same direction, so it always had the same alignment with the sun in the summer, which warped the fuselage one way or the other.
The temporary solution was to throw a white towel over the aft fuselage when it was sitting in the pits. Problem mostly solved. The second half of the issue was that the fin, while perfectly aligned at the base, was leaning slightly to the inboard side of the fuselage. Not much, but maybe 1/16" at the tip. That, plus the very slightly downward angle of the turtledeck, had the effect of causing a tiny amount of offset inboard. Teh airplane was but apart and the fin straightened, and that and the towel made it much more consistent from there on out. Note that this played out over the period of something like *8 years*.
Brett
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I retired my Cardinal because the profile fuselage would do the same thing Brett was talking about .....monokote was tighting on the hottest side....it was a hand me down plane to me......I know why it was a hand me down now......LOL
the wing and tail feathers are great....I will rebuild the fuselage the right way and recover whole plane in poly, and silk span and then paint.....
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I retired my Cardinal because the profile fuselage would do the same thing Brett was talking about .....monokote was tighting on the hottest side....it was a hand me down plane to me......I know why it was a hand me down now......LOL
Or just toss a white blanket or towel over the thing -- it'll cut down on the solar loading and even out the temperatures. It works wonders if you have a monocoated wing that wants to crawl around on sunny days.
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Or just toss a white blanket or towel over the thing -- it'll cut down on the solar loading and even out the temperatures. It works wonders if you have a monocoated wing that wants to crawl around on sunny days.
i did that and it flew better.
You blow from you mouth onto the top of the stab surface and put a twist in the tail.......makes goofy circles......I can feel it on the handle.....from TE of wing to TE of stab has 3 big lightning holes, with a width of 3/8 lite soft Balsa fuselage and then monokoted.....LOL....
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with apologies in advance,,
Black planes lives matter,, or shouild that be Black planes alignments matter,, hmmm LL~
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Tom,
No, it doesn't.
I think what a new guy should do is build light, straight, have a good coach ( helpful person in a higher class or judge that can explain what you're doing wrong), fly often, learn to get a good run and develop a thick skin.
Stunt is judged, subjectively, and people already flying the event naturally would like you to do well and will tell you how you can do it better. Sometimes they may tell you your maneuvers suck. Judges do it often by giving scores for what they see. Sometimes Champs will tell you your concerns are off the mark and you should concentrate on known subjects of legitimate concern to fly a well scoring pattern. Hope you can take it and become one of the greats. Telling a Nats Champ you'll do it better and faster than he takes big back up to make that story come true!
You need a change of attitude if how you write is any indication, and read up on history of winners of the event. Camo paint schemes have won for years and the expert and National Champions that have given you the big picture here seemingly offending you does not bode well for your ability to take critique and hence build success.
Color? Paint it white with red and blue stripes that are straight following the thrustline on the fuse and leading and trailing edges on the wing and tail, and don't bleed under the tape, buff it out without burning through. Make sure your fillets don't bubble. Decorate it with American flags that fly in the direction of flight. Request a 5 digit AMA number. White is lightest, it has the least pigment weight.
Good luck.
Chris...
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You Forgot the STARS . S?P