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Author Topic: Does color make a different in your scores?  (Read 12180 times)

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #100 on: April 04, 2017, 10:47:18 AM »
Morning everyone.....

   I appreciate the response's on this thread. There are some great comments.

I want to respond to Trostle...... I will not QUIT flying in 5 years.....I am in for the long haul. Yes I made a comment at the start of this thread about doing it in 5 years.....in the heat of the moment cause I felt my question matters and wasn't silly.....it embarrassed me in front of people thinking I ask a stupid question!!!!
 I set a goal now to become and advance flyer in 5 years.....not a world champ or National champ.

 For thoughs who said to settle down and not get to sensitive......I am the only one who can defend myself and I don't think any question is silly. I am a beginner in flight,but I have a mind of advance. building and finishing is part of stunt flying as is flying scores. I want to design my plane with a plan of execution to delivery the best plane and advantages as I can for the highest score possibly.  I know it is all in the skills of my hand to be able to sculpt the best flight and it takes hours of practice......that is what this year focus for me is to fly, fly,fly.....not worried about color right now cause it is too late cause I have warbirds and the colors are such.

The best meter I have is not sensitive meter.... it is my FUN METER!!!!

Chris Wilson has a great perspective on color as Avaiojet cause they are a graphic designers and understand the question. These two are just an example that comes to my mind as I am writing. There are more comments in this thread where guys have some great responses, sorry I didn't mention you.....you all are great fellow modelers which I look up too. Didn't mean to step on toes.....it wasn't my intention

For the one that said "ignore at my own peril".......what the hell was that all about???.....LOL....Am I in danger?? for defending myself and standing up for what I believe in, which is there is no such thing as a silly question......O my....I am in PERIL!!!   .....HAHAHA.....thats funny as hell.....I am in peril

   This thread has taking me to some really cool designs using color......I have another tool I can use in designing......something I really never sit down to really think about that the color is just important as gluing the first piece of balsa together.
 
What would I get if I Had a decal of a NAKED woman out of playboy magazine on my plane.....a breast on inboard and outboard of wing and the tail, well ya know what would be there.......LOL.....would that help my scores?   LOL    just kidding....we have kids and it would offend some people.....but what a concept.....LOL
Which girl should I use?    LOL

So I am really thankful for the comments on color and for the judges that also commented.....

Everybody tight lines and fair winds!!!!

Tom,
I would suggest that you can best answer your questions by actually doing some judging!  Get with an experienced judge at the next contest you attend and judge along with him.  No discussion during judging but talk with him about your scores afterward and how they compare with his.  An experienced judge will be able to tell you what you missed and what you saw that was good and probably why.  Try to develop a method of looking at the shape, path, and position that the airplane makes and formulating it to a range of scores, then settling on an exact number.  You will answer your own question by that experience and I personally feel you will then agree with the experienced people here that have "told it like it is".  I guess it's a little like "walk a mile in my shoes", then tell me what you think!

When you can then stand with about 6 or 8 experienced judges and judge a flight, and all compare scores and all be within a fairly close range you will have your answer!  It doesn't come easy however!

Randy Cuberly
PS:  I think you'll find that it will also improve your flying ability!
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #101 on: April 04, 2017, 11:40:27 AM »
Tom,

That was a great post from Randy Cubberly just above and something we should have considered earlier inasmuch as you're asking re the impact on the judges' perceptions of the aircraft in flight.  Give his suggestions some thought and, if the opportunity arrives, discuss it with a judge before a meet and see if they are amenable to (post competition) discussion.  For a fair evaluation don't tell him precisely what it is you're evaluating.  Then sit back and judge and make notes re the color of the airplanes and "your" thoughts as to how that color affected "you".  Then see what the judge has to say when you ask what color the airplanes were and whether the hue had any impact of which they were aware.

FWIW,  I just ran through several hundred of the pictures I've taken of stunt ships since the late 1950s--most heavily starting in the early 1960s when I started attending Nats and Team Trials (and a few World Championships).  Without question the most common basic color is white.  I expect that is because white and black go with "any" color and a black built up wing on a hot day can be a big problem (ask how I know if you're interested) so white is clearly the default base color for the majority although there is a good representation of black ones as well (including one of my first "pro" stunters).

Beyond those two I'd say that silvers of one sort or another were probably next most common and blues close behind.  (Note, the vast majority utilized a large area of base color accompanied by a panoply of contrasting trim colors.  In the US predominantly RW&B.  Other countries seem to use a wide variety of trim colors on white bases, sometimes reflective of their countries flags and some not.  A handful, such as the "purple" Walker Cup winner used a combination of a common "darkest" color brightened by the addition of a lightening base such as white, gold or silver for trim colors as appropriate to the darkest pigment. 

There have been a number of bright colored winners over the years although multiple examples of Paul Walker and Dave Fitzgeralds' yellow/orange/candy/fluorescent versions might have spiked the percentage of same.

Re your "Camo" comment there have been any number of full camo paint jobs that flew to wins or very high finishes including those of Frank McMillan and Keith Trostle who specialize very effectively with such among others.  there was one instance a couple of decades or so ago of an absolutely beautiful semi-scale Wild Cat that had a purposely "weathered" paint job that received very, very low appearance points because it wasn't shiny like the majority of the entries.  After the appearance judging was over the shock of the competitors at the misdirected judge mentality that resulted in that score more than eliminated any chance that that low number (which doesn't appear on the judges' score sheets, by the way, but is added by the tabulators after each round) influenced maneuver scores from the flight judges.

So, for a very straight forward answer to your underlying concern I don't believe a cogent case could be made for any remotely verifiable color as the "best scoring" unless you wanted to say that, "obviously", it must be white because of its preponderance.  Again, on my opinion that is primarily the result of pride of country and being a universally viable background for the flyer's favorite colors.

Finally, If you've anyone near to you or who might attend a contest in which you compete who has been a long time  PAMPA member you be able to talk him/her into dragging along back "Nats" issues most of which have color pix of at least "The" Champ and, often, the top five and or all the class winners.

Hope this helps a bit.

Ted Fancher

With the exception of the obvious predominance of white base colors with a countless array of contrasting trims (albeit with the R,W,B noted above) I can't say that there is any "obvious" favoritism for "special" colors among those who were competitive in my active "career" (every Nats from 1964 through ~2007 plus judging a couple of years when Dave Fitz was the ED.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #102 on: April 04, 2017, 11:59:17 AM »
I guess I'm finally bored to death reading all of this. There is many ways of achieving success to get to the top.   First off is learning to build straight and light as a few learned that helps but doesn't really do the job.  Finish /appearance is worth 20 points max no matter where you fly in AMA competition.   I've watched guys polish their planes only to get a few more points then the guys like me that just paint and hope.  Practice and a good coach is where the big difference is.  Even the top guys have a coach or helper somewhere.   Attending contests and flying in different parts of this great land will get a person noticed if they fly according to the book and empress the judges as well as fellow contestants.

Another plus is watching the top people on how they fly and when they are not busy talk to them face to face.  Myself I now fly for the fun of it as in the past I have been very disappointed with the scores I have received, especially when I thought I had flown very well against some one whos bottoms are at 15 feet.  Was told they were very smooth even though the tops of verticals were way behind their head.  Well I'm done for now. R%%%% R%%%%
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #103 on: April 04, 2017, 04:18:24 PM »
Tom,
I would suggest that you can best answer your questions by actually doing some judging!  Get with an experienced judge at the next contest you attend and judge along with him.  No discussion during judging but talk with him about your scores afterward and how they compare with his.  An experienced judge will be able to tell you what you missed and what you saw that was good and probably why.  Try to develop a method of looking at the shape, path, and position that the airplane makes and formulating it to a range of scores, then settling on an exact number.  You will answer your own question by that experience and I personally feel you will then agree with the experienced people here that have "told it like it is".  I guess it's a little like "walk a mile in my shoes", then tell me what you think!

When you can then stand with about 6 or 8 experienced judges and judge a flight, and all compare scores and all be within a fairly close range you will have your answer!  It doesn't come easy however!

Randy Cuberly
PS:  I think you'll find that it will also improve your flying ability!

Scott Riese did me that favor the second year I was competing.  I was shadow-judging and comparing my scores to the real judges: Scott stood next to me during Expert or Advanced and gave me a point-by-point discussion of what was good and bad about each maneuver.

(If you can't get someone to take the time to do this for you, shadow-judge.  You can usually beg some blank score sheets from the tabulator, or just use blank paper.  Write down what YOU thought the pilot made on each maneuver, then compare your score to the scoreboard.  Better yet, ask pilots if you can look at their scoresheets and compare maneuver-by-maneuver.)
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #104 on: April 04, 2017, 05:04:41 PM »
Yes, great post by Randy and I agree that it will give you the best perspective.

Just as an aside here, I have seen black models sitting in the pits out in the severe Australian sun actually warp their wings whilst waiting for a flight.

And pure white models flown over snow - neither colour does the model any favours for the conditions they faced.

Good Luck Tom and please get back to us about your experiences.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #105 on: April 04, 2017, 08:28:03 PM »
Yes, great post by Randy and I agree that it will give you the best perspective.

Just as an aside here, I have seen black models sitting in the pits out in the severe Australian sun actually warp their wings whilst waiting for a flight.

And pure white models flown over snow - neither colour does the model any favours for the conditions they faced.

Good Luck Tom and please get back to us about your experiences.

Love this post, Chris.  That is exactly what happened to me.  As a Junior I went to a contest in Spokane (eastern) Washington with my brother Gary to fly in stunt and proto speed.  My stunt ship was a Veco Chief painted all black except for some thin light blue stripes (design plan via the width of the masking tape).  Flew early in the morning when the temp was still quite moderate and left the Chief exposed to the elements while I went off to fly proto speed (at which I was a rank novice, flying a Regal Raider with an example of the most beautiful speed engine ever, a Dooling .29, in the nose.)  Was there for quite a while while we went through whatever number of rounds there were and it got blazingly hot...high 90s and maybe 100 or more.

Went back to the stunt circle several hours later and noted, first, that I had scored well in the first round but wasn't quite on top so another flight was in order.  Gary and I wandered over to the Chief and quickly noted that both wing panels appeared to be imitating a pretzel with the trailing edges and flaps be-twisted up not a little but a whole lot.  After burning my fingers upon attempting to pick it up we eventually got it turned on to its back and, with Gary holding one wing and I the other twisted them as close to "just as far the opposite direction" as we could tell by eyeball and held them that way for what seemed like forever, once again exposed to the blazing sun...occasionally releasing pressure to check our progress.  After some time we declared them "straight" again and we threw a blanket over it, hooked up the lines and flew the second flight.

I didn't recall the outcome but many years later the late great Don McClave brought up the story at dinner during a contest somewhere.  Turns out he was there and remembered it because an adult stunt flyer (Don wasn't yet flying stunt) had complained to him about getting beat by a damn kid with crooked black wings.

So much for multiple incidence meters, I guess.

Ted

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #106 on: April 04, 2017, 09:19:04 PM »
Great story Ted.   
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline tom creasey

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2017, 06:52:11 AM »


When you can then stand with about 6 or 8 experienced judges and judge a flight, and all compare scores and all be within a fairly close range you will have your answer!  It doesn't come easy however!

Randy Cuberly
PS:  I think you'll find that it will also improve your flying ability!
[/quote]


Will do Randy......that would be a good way to see the flights of pilots......I think it would be help my own pattern flying!!!!

Ted......that story you told made me laugh.....incident meter turned on my laugh meter.....

when I am on the tarmac.....I cover plane up or take it under my shade canopy is what I usually do.
Tom
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2017, 08:11:44 AM »

When you can then stand with about 6 or 8 experienced judges and judge a flight, and all compare scores and all be within a fairly close range you will have your answer!  It doesn't come easy however!

Randy Cuberly
PS:  I think you'll find that it will also improve your flying ability!



Will do Randy......that would be a good way to see the flights of pilots......I think it would be help my own pattern flying!!!!

Ted......that story you told made me laugh.....incident meter turned on my laugh meter.....

when I am on the tarmac.....I cover plane up or take it under my shade canopy is what I usually do.

      What Ted *doesn't* mention is that we ended up doing exactly the same thing a few years, er, decades later, when we discovered one of our airplanes, for reasons still unexplained, had a fuselage that worked like a bi-metallic strip. For years, the airplane would fly great one day, and be all over the place the next. This went on for years, with both remarkable success, and frustrating and inexplicable out-of-trim sometimes.  It acted like it was misaligned, but measure the alignment of the tail with respect to the wing in the garage, everything was perfect. Finally, it was a bad day again, and I got frustrated that we couldn't figure out why again, so I decided to check the alignment out at the site, just sitting in the pits. Tail was skewed by 1/4" - which was exactly what it had always acted like.    We turned the airplane 180 degrees in the pits, waited 1/2 hour, and flew it again, and it flew fine again.  Working backwards, I even convinced myself that the "bad" days, which tended to happen at some specific sites, and the good days, at different sites, was determined by which way they laid out the pits!  At a particular site, the pits were always the same direction, so it always had the same alignment with the sun in the summer, which warped the fuselage one way or the other.

    The temporary solution was to throw a white towel over the aft fuselage when it was sitting in the pits. Problem mostly solved. The second half of the issue was that the fin, while perfectly aligned at the base, was leaning slightly to the inboard side of the fuselage. Not much, but maybe 1/16" at the tip. That, plus the very slightly downward angle of the turtledeck, had the effect of causing a tiny amount of offset inboard. Teh airplane was but apart and the fin straightened, and that and the towel made it much more consistent from there on out. Note that this played out over the period of something like *8 years*.
      Brett
       

Offline tom creasey

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2017, 09:59:03 AM »
I retired my Cardinal because the profile fuselage would do the same thing Brett was talking about .....monokote was tighting on the hottest side....it was a hand me down plane to me......I know why it was a hand me down now......LOL

the wing and tail feathers are great....I will rebuild the fuselage the right way and recover whole plane in poly, and silk span and then paint.....
Tom
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2017, 10:06:09 AM »
I retired my Cardinal because the profile fuselage would do the same thing Brett was talking about .....monokote was tighting on the hottest side....it was a hand me down plane to me......I know why it was a hand me down now......LOL

Or just toss a white blanket or towel over the thing -- it'll cut down on the solar loading and even out the temperatures.  It works wonders if you have a monocoated wing that wants to crawl around on sunny days.
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Offline tom creasey

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2017, 10:12:36 AM »
Or just toss a white blanket or towel over the thing -- it'll cut down on the solar loading and even out the temperatures.  It works wonders if you have a monocoated wing that wants to crawl around on sunny days.


i did that and it flew better.

You blow from you mouth onto the top of the stab surface and put a twist in the tail.......makes goofy circles......I can feel it on the handle.....from TE of wing to TE of stab has 3 big lightning holes, with a width of 3/8 lite soft Balsa fuselage and then monokoted.....LOL.... 
Tom
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2017, 11:28:59 AM »
with apologies in advance,,

Black planes lives matter,, or shouild that be Black planes alignments matter,, hmmm  LL~
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #113 on: April 05, 2017, 11:30:24 AM »
Tom,
No, it doesn't.
I think what a new guy should do is build light, straight, have a good coach ( helpful person in a higher class or judge that can explain what you're doing wrong), fly often, learn to get a good run and develop a thick skin.
Stunt is judged, subjectively, and people already flying the event naturally would like you to do well and will tell you how you can do it better. Sometimes they may tell you your maneuvers suck. Judges do it often by giving scores for what they see. Sometimes Champs will tell you your concerns are off the mark and you should concentrate on known subjects of legitimate concern to fly a well scoring pattern.  Hope you can take it and become one of the greats. Telling a Nats Champ you'll do it better and faster than he takes big back up to make that story come true!
You need a change of attitude if how you write is any indication, and read up on history of winners of the event. Camo paint schemes have won for years and the expert and National Champions that have given you the big picture here seemingly offending you does not bode well for your ability to take critique and hence build success.
Color? Paint it white with red and blue stripes that are straight following the thrustline on the fuse and leading and trailing edges on the wing and tail, and don't bleed under the tape, buff it out without burning through. Make sure your fillets don't bubble. Decorate it with American flags that fly in the direction of flight. Request a 5 digit AMA number. White is lightest, it has the least pigment weight.
Good luck.
Chris...


Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Does color make a different in your scores?
« Reply #114 on: April 05, 2017, 10:43:41 PM »
You Forgot the STARS . S?P


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