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Author Topic: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?  (Read 2450 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« on: July 21, 2021, 10:38:57 PM »
Hello,
I will be flight testing my LA-4e from Leonidov, Ukraine, soon.
It is called Big Yellow (attached).

The plane has a rudder installed at 0.0 deg. To deflect the rudder outside a surgery is needed.

The thrust is also at 0.0 deg.

Do I need to deflect the rudder and leave the trust at 0.0?
If yes: how much for the first flights?
Do I need to deflect the thrust direction?
Do I need both?

Big Yellow is powered by Cobra Kv550 and/or T-Motor Kv550 and 13.5 x 5.5 x 3 carbon composite Kravchenko F2B propeller or /and by Badass Kv710 and 12x6x4 custom made carbon composite propeller. I am using TP 6S 2800, Spin66 F2B ESC and Igor's active timer. The RTF weight is 1840 grams (64.9 oz.). Wings loading: 13 oz./ft.^2. Lines length (y-t-y): 67 '

Thank you,
M

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2021, 10:46:16 PM »
It depends upon who you ask.

I don't use rudder offset, Igor does.

You must find what works for you. Requires trial and error.

Good luck


Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2021, 11:15:35 PM »
The plane has a rudder installed at 0.0 deg. To deflect the rudder outside a surgery is needed.

The thrust is also at 0.0 deg.

Do I need to deflect the rudder and leave the trust at 0.0?

   No, fly it as is. Adjust if necessary.

    Brett

   p.s. Paul and I do not have a hotline to consult and gang up on you...

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2021, 09:49:46 AM »
Short answer "no".  I have on rare occasions used engine offset wedges when using glow power.  I have not used electric enough to speak intelligently about it. Brett and Paul gave good advice.


Mike

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2021, 11:12:34 AM »
I am of the opinion that it is not necessary in most cases.  Planes designed before the power revolution really needed it.  Now you don't need fixed rudder offset until all other trim fails.  However, "on demand" like Al and Keith's can be beneficial. I have grown to like having just a touch of rudder as I give the plane control, 1/16" on inside to 1/8" on outside. I prefer engine/motor offset if I have a yaw issue.  I can't figure out why yet but motor offset seems to work better with electric and as a result you can use a bit more.

Ken
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2021, 01:52:22 PM »
A few designs actually benefit from slight rudder offset.  I usually hinge my rudders, with a simple clevis to adjust offset, if needed.
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2021, 03:04:22 PM »
I usually have just a little- maybe one or two degrees.  This much makes sure a fuselage shape problem or something else (like longer inboard wing panel- more drag) doesn’t turn the airplane the wrong direction in towards you.  A little can help keep the lines tight up top and shouldn’t create any major trim issues.

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2021, 03:56:53 PM »
I vaguely remember an article the late great Bob Palmer wrote that a rudder is only useful in the glide. D>K
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2021, 11:15:19 PM »
If its a left hand propellor , clockwise rotation standling in front looking at the nose , no .  Otherwise ' thats a good question ' .

Tip Weight , engine ( thrust line ) offset , and rudder are interrelated .

No Offset & I would get generous with the tip weight initially , rather than stingy . Tip weight tends to hold em tight, even if it flings the tip a bit . Better than it coming at you .

After say a dozen flights - youll get it dialed in closer . So take cut / weighed / fittable spare weights . Play it safe being generous there for starters . Teeth are expensive if it hits them .  %^@

Id put a piece of cellotape along that forward part of the leadout guide too , to stop it catching the wind . to say 5 mm from the front leadout . Replace the tape occasionally .

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2021, 11:31:20 PM »
I do sand an airfoil in the rudder if the material is thick enough on a good sized stunter.  I Usually do not bother with it on something like a Ringmaster.  I am sure everyone else does also.

Mike

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2021, 11:43:54 PM »
Really?

Your BUYING a plane, and want to ask for advice?

How about spend 30 years, practice,  build, fly, trim.. then you might figure out the answers to some of this stuff.

Thats the REAL answer.

I mean I dont even understand the purpose of the question.

Your asking does a fin need offset ?

The answer is ..

Yes offset can help.
The answer is also NO offset can help.

This is my point.. BOTH answers are valid. There are many proponents of zero offset. There are many proponents of some offset.. some even suggest movable rudder for offset.

But if you buy to fly you will NEVER i repeat NEVER understand why one works vs another.


Better solution would be to buy the plane and just fly it. If your THAT skilled that you can detect minor trim issues with a handbuild composite stunt plane, then either modifiy it or build your own that match your pilot ability.







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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2021, 11:50:37 PM »
I do sand an airfoil in the rudder if the material is thick enough on a good sized stunter.  I Usually do not bother with it on something like a Ringmaster.  I am sure everyone else does also.

  I never do that, no offset nor airfoil in the fin (which are the same thing). We have spent a lot of time cutting completed airplanes with Zona saws to remove it. Put the fin on *dead straight ahead*, make the rudder adjustable in very fine increments. Play leadouts position off against rudder offset to minimize yaw transients in corners. I recommend using the rudder as the independent variable, set it, then adjust the leadouts to minimize yaw transients. That does not mean "put in offset, move leadouts forward to drag the nose back tangent", quite the opposite, so *do not want* the adjustments fighting each other.

   Rudder offset is an extremely powerful adjustment, even a tiny offset will make a HUGE difference, particularly around zero.

     Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2021, 07:27:12 AM »
Rudder offset is an extremely powerful adjustment, even a tiny offset will make a HUGE difference, particularly around zero.
     Brett
This statement is very true.  Anyone who has competed with sailplanes and done spot landings will know.  Please correct me if my reasoning is wrong.  I have been using Keith's CAM rudder now for my last three ships.  I think I set it up differently than Keith intended but it works for me very well.  My desire was to increase line tension in two places.  Entering corners and the overhead 8.  By increasing, I am really saying compensating for the loss.  I am 100% electric now so "thinking" about what the motor is doing has faded away and my concentration has shifted to shape and elevations where it belongs.  How much offset did it take to accomplish this?  1/16" on insides increasing to 1/8" on outsides.

I have flown 2 ships with Igor's timer and I think it accomplishes the same thing.

Ken
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2021, 06:23:15 PM »
Whatever Paul and Brett say...do that!

Otherwise, I'll suggest a "better" name than "Big Yellow". I was thinking "Yer in...or yer out".  ;)  Steve
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2021, 04:45:06 AM »
Hello,
Thank you for your thoughts.
I will make the rudder adjustable. This will require some Drehmel work and the installation of the adjustment mechanism.
Please expect the test flights report soon.

By the way: the quality of Leonidov's F2B model is very high but:
1. Main landing gear wheels installation was done in a sloppy way. I had to modify many details to make the wheels turn properly.
2. The circular cutout in the firewall was too small for Cobra Kv550, T-motor Kv550, and Badass Kv710. A delicate Drehmel work was needed to make this cutout large enough. This weakened the firewall motor installation.
3. LA-4e has a hinge-to-hinge distance of 475 mm. To achieve this, Leonidov decided to move the elevator horn 10 mm. aft, w/r to the ICE version. Consequently, the elevator's horn is inside the rudder that was built as an empty laminate shell.

When the rudder is deflected more than 3-4 degrees, the elevator's horn interferes with the inside of the rudder laminate skins. It is clear now why the rudder was set on 0.0.

I will modify whatever I have to modify but I do not think I will buy anything from Leonidov in the future. The RTF F2B model should be done in such a way that there is no need to spend hours cutting, adjusting, and so on.

Regards,
M


 

Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2021, 05:51:19 AM »
Don't these planes cost somewhere around $2000.00? I'd be leery of cutting into such an expensive plane, I agree with Brett, fly it first to be sure you need it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 10:47:40 AM by Dwayne Donnelly »
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2021, 02:00:57 PM »
475mm = 18.7". Is that on the short side for a ".60 sized" stunter? 10mm = .3937". I'd wonder if that change would be noticeable.

Before hacking into the fin to make the rudder adjustable, I'd fly it and experiment with short lengths of "trailing edge stock" double-back taped to the outboard side at the TE. It'd be ugly, but you might find out that you really don't need to bother with the hinging and rudder adjustment. This is a common and effective trim adjustment on free flight models. It will work fine. I'd start with a 1" long by 1" wide wedge tapering 3/16" to almost nothing...a 1" length should be noticeable.  D>K Steve
« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 11:25:58 PM by Steve Helmick »
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2021, 10:30:20 PM »
Why don't you just fly it first, and then modify if necessary. I have no experience with Leonidov's models, but they seem tho have an OK track record so far.
But my experience with Yatsenko stuff, especially engines but also with models, is that the factory stock condition (except sticky wheels, of course) is best for most people. L

Zactly .



Nuthin to stop you chewing a noo hinge line through 10 mm or 1/2 inch aft of std , if you must butcher it .

W W II the Spitfire was trimmed level in early marks , by ' rope ' taped & dopeed to the Aileron trailing edge . Top or bottom .
They got a idea wot length , after the first few . Then fine tuned . Easier to cut down than lengthen . As per Steve h's advice .

Or just cut a hole in the back of it .


Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2021, 10:37:05 PM »
Youl logicaly improve with a more inspireing poster on the wall .



Those cheap japanese copies hardly cultivate evolved dispositions .  S?P  LL~  H^^



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« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 10:54:55 PM by Air Ministry . »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2021, 10:44:25 PM »
When the rudder is deflected more than 3-4 degrees, the elevator's horn interferes with the inside of the rudder laminate skins. It is clear now why the rudder was set on 0.0.

   3-4 degrees on that sized rudder is a very large offset and far outside what the normal range of adjustments might be, so don't worry about that. If you think it needs more than that, then, something else is probably wrong.

   I reiterate- at this point, it's (pre-)built, you need to fly it, see what it does (in terms of yaw transients), and then adjust it as needed.

    Brett

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2021, 03:26:11 AM »

The plane has a rudder installed at 0.0 deg. To deflect the rudder outside a surgery is needed.

The thrust is also at 0.0 deg.

Do I need to deflect the rudder and leave the trust at 0.0?
If yes: how much for the first flights?
Do I need to deflect the thrust direction?
Do I need both?
Interesting question.
But consider that if you have the thrustline and the rudders zero lift angle of attack line as the same and then force that line to rotate with the CG tangent to the circle then you will by default have outthrust and you will have positive rudder deflection.
The greater the distance from the CG these are then the greater effect they will have.
To cancel out these natural outthrusts you would have to design the model in a curve that matches it's flight path, and indeed some speed models do exactly that.
So do you need the natural outthrusts of classically designed model?
Absolutely, but the real question  is do I need more?
To me that's a depends question.
Chris.
P.S.
See attached image where A is the engine, B is the rudder, C is centre and D is the CG tangent to circle.
The line between A and B is your 0-0 setup, the thrust is outboard of the flight path as thus will provide outthrust and the rudder will weather cock towards the flight path pivoting around the CG thus providing yaw.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 02:58:43 PM by Chris Wilson »
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2021, 03:50:44 PM »
Interesting question.
But consider that if you have the thrustline and the rudders zero lift angle of attack line as the same and then force that line to rotate with the CG tangent to the circle then you will by default have outthrust and you will have positive rudder deflection.
The greater the distance from the CG these are then the greater effect they will have.
To cancel out these natural outthrusts you would have to design the model in a curve that matches it's flight path, and indeed some speed models do exactly that.
So do you need the natural outthrusts of classically designed model?
Absolutely, but the real question  is do I need more?
To me that's a depends question.
Chris.
P.S.
See attached image where A is the engine, B is the rudder, C is centre and D is the CG tangent to circle.
The line between A and B is your 0-0 setup, the thrust is outboard of the flight path as thus will provide outthrust and the rudder will weather cock towards the flight path pivoting around the CG thus providing yaw.

     I think you guys are concerning yourself with stuff that is *far, far* below the threshold of normal building tolerances and variations. It's interesting in a hypothetical sense but not important to the problem at hand - and in any case, it's built like it is built, you aren't going to split the fuse lengthwise and bend it to follow a 65 foot radius.

    How much engine offset you want is an interesting question that at least to first approximation depends on the wing asymmetry and where the lateral CG might wind up. But offset is an *extremely weak* trim adjustment meaning you have a very large tolerance , or, putting it another way, it makes very little difference, so guessing wrong won't make much difference (as long as it is not *inboard* - make sure is is not aimed in at you). 

    The rudder, on the other hand, is *extremely powerful" , so the chances of determining the correct setting a priori is probably inconceivable. I can easily detect the difference in 1/2 turn of 2-56 clevis - 0.009", that is 9 thousands of an inch - on a 1" high horn. or about 1/2 a degree.And my rudder is likely much less effective that this one. Mine is about 1 1/4" in chord and 8" high, and I hae a very large fixed fin and a very large aft fuselage.. This airplane is around 3" of chord , only slightly shorter, and has a fuselage that provides much less  restoring force.

     I suggest putting it dead straight ahead or the tiniest breath to the right (like, .005", not 1/4") and then adjust based on what you see. And, consider that it might have to *change from day to day*.

    Brett

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2021, 08:42:06 PM »

 "  I reiterate- at this point, it's (pre-)built, you need to fly it, see what it does (in terms of yaw transients), and then adjust it as needed"

Thats not how the kids do it these days.

Adjust it first

Think about what it *might * do

Then maybe fly it.. but that presents other "human factors," that are far beyond reach of a simple 5.56 clevis :)
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2021, 10:47:08 PM »
Interesting question.
But consider that if you have the thrustline and the rudders zero lift angle of attack line as the same and then force that line to rotate with the CG tangent to the circle then you will by default have outthrust and you will have positive rudder deflection.
The greater the distance from the CG these are then the greater effect they will have.
To cancel out these natural outthrusts you would have to design the model in a curve that matches it's flight path, and indeed some speed models do exactly that.
So do you need the natural outthrusts of classically designed model?
Absolutely, but the real question  is do I need more?
To me that's a depends question.
Chris.
P.S.
See attached image where A is the engine, B is the rudder, C is centre and D is the CG tangent to circle.
The line between A and B is your 0-0 setup, the thrust is outboard of the flight path as thus will provide outthrust and the rudder will weather cock towards the flight path pivoting around the CG thus providing yaw.

  As an aside, Lou Crane wrote a paper on this topic about 40 years ago, we might prevail on him to post it here.

    Brett

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2021, 01:22:53 AM »
  As an aside, Lou Crane wrote a paper on this topic about 40 years ago, we might prevail on him to post it here.

    Brett
Please accept that I am well aware of that and it's where the idea of natural outthrust came from.
Brett, can you calculate the tangent angle might be of a 65 ' circle might be?
Chris.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2021, 10:14:12 AM »
Please accept that I am well aware of that and it's where the idea of natural outthrust came from.


I guess that as long as you and I know about it, that's the important thing, so by all means we should keep it to ourselves.

Quote
Brett, can you calculate the tangent angle might be of a 65 ' circle might be?

    You mean the difference in the angle of the relative wind at the nose and tail WRT the relative wind at the CG, presumably at level flight static equilibrium? Yes, it's slightly less than a degree at the nose and maybe 2 degrees at the tail. It's a right triangle with the a rise of about a foot (CG to prop along X_body), with a run of 65 feet, angle = tan-1(delta_X/Y).
   

      Dynamically - no, I can probably not compute the absolute relative wind angle at the nose or the tail, at least not in closed form.

     Apropos of the original question - Matt, and everyone else, note that while this classic "rotating reference frame" issue is probably worth knowing about simply from a situational awareness perspective, *you should not act on it or do anything different based on it*.

    You have a built airplane.  Use any engine offset from 0 to 3 degrees to the right, as long as you are absolutely certain that "0" is not even slightly left. Leave the rudder set dead straight ahead. Put the leadouts about 2-3 degrees behind the CG to start. Then *fly it*, and *adjust if necessary based on how it flies*. If you think you need a lot of rudder offset, then come back and tell us what is happening to make you think that, because that is a symptom of a different problem.

    Brett




   

     

   

Offline kevin king

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2021, 02:41:51 PM »
I was flying a new plane one day and it pulled so hard the cable in the handle started to slide. I thought for sure the lines were going to snap. Fortunately the plane had a Rabe rudder and I was able to add some left rudder on the next flights. That was crazy. The rudder was actually inboard 3/16" of an inch! 😆😆😆

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2021, 03:47:28 PM »
Thanks Brett, well said.
Chris.
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Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Do we need the rudder deflected in stunt?
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2021, 05:56:04 PM »
Use any engine offset from 0 to 3 degrees to the right, as long as you are absolutely certain that "0" is not even slightly left. Leave the rudder set dead straight ahead. Put the leadouts about 2-3 degrees behind the CG to start. Then *fly it*, and *adjust if necessary based on how it flies*. If you think you need a lot of rudder offset, then come back and tell us what is happening .



Ohh great... now everyone knows the secret...
Thanks Brett..

If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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