Dizzyness

[Robert Zambelli]

Need some help here.
One of my closest friends is getting back into CL flying after being away from it for around 25 years.
He's getting very dizzy after just a short time in the air.
He's just a sport flyer, mid 60s.

Any suggestions to remedy or at least minimize the effects?
He's really enthusiastic and wants to fly with us.

Bob Z.

[Cody bishop]

My dad just go back in after about 35 years and I just got in the hobby less than 5 years ago myself so I can make a few suggestions for starters focus on the airplane not the background I also find counting you laps helps destract from getting dizzy also you can try  Bonine motion sickness the first few times and that will make a lasting difference really it just will take some getting used to first time my dad flew he walked a 20 ft circle he was so dizzy

[CircuitFlyer]

Lend him an electric model.  45 second to 1 minute flights to start and work up from there.  It won't take long to get back in the swing of things

[Tim Wescott]

When I got back into the sport (at 40, granted, not 60), it took several weeks of short flights with good long rests in between before I could really fly.  Even then, several years later when I started doing the full pattern I'd get dizzy after six inverted laps -- outside loops came with an "oh thank God, I can stand still"!  Tell him to persevere, take it slow, and if that and Cody's suggestions don't take, tell him not to hesitate to see a doc.

Oh -- if he lives on a neighborhood street tell him to stand in his front lawn and spin in circles.  If anyone asks, he should say "I'm flying".  That will have a definite impact on his reputation in the neighborhood.

[Ken Culbertson]

I think focus on the plane and perhaps walking around in a small circle might help.  I have never has a problem with being dizzy.  Maybe it was because I started as a kid and never let up till I was in my late 30's.  Never watched the ground, or background and I talk to myself alot when in the pattern.  (Now that I am going electric I will have to clean that part up)   Maybe that is why I have such a hard time picking intersection references.  Sat out 35 years and did not have any dizzyness when I came back.  I will confess that my first couple of overhead 8's were dramatic.  I kept saying to myself "Watch the Plane....what plane?, where is it?, it is still making noise so it must be up there somewhere"  It does get better.

The electric idea is good too.  Those 1 min trim flights are a blessing!


Ken

[JoeJust]

Find an old "beater" Profile Carrier plane and allow him to just get the plane in the air and slow down for a few laps. Dizzy?  Throttle back and let the plane land wherever it might.
Now, a warning.  This past Spring I found myself unable to fly much, and when I tried it I was very dizzy, something that had never happend in 60 plus years of flying. I had a real bad dizzy spell and the next day while drinking a glass of water My heart stopped.  I now have a Pacemaker and I found out that I had a few problems that I was simply ignoring. My Cardiac DR. says that Dizziness is a warning.  Get tested...NOW
Joe

[frank williams]

There is a prescription med called Meclazine for old people dizziness.
Ginger is good too.  Ginger root, Ginger tablets, Ginger ale.
Short flights.

[Fred Underwood]

Bonine from Cody's post is a brand of meclizine.  They are antihistamines similar to benedryl.  They may be sedating and have other minor effects.  If you are going to try that, wait a while to risk a plane and see how you feel. It can impair driving, thinking, and therefore flying.  That said, some have no difficulty.

[Air Ministry .]

Further Back the tress / background , THINGS , walls & the like , ARE , the Less effect they seem to have .

Middle of a wide open fields best .

XCLOSER THEY ARE , The More They W H I Z Z  P A S T ,

However . I stick them in the middle , with their arm out , and thell them the STEP ,
Lift Left Foot straight up and down , S W I N G  Right leg . 3 swings ( or 4 ) per Lap .

Arm Out , Thumb Up . Look a foot in front of thum , and where you want the plane to go .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

stops the old informatin overload . assymilateing / familiarising with the back ground seperately & before hand .

Still Pays at a new field . though once ones got a way with flying , the brain cells are less apt to act normallly . 

not Many people otherwise stand in a spot turning in circles 60 times , looking at the sky . So a ' learning curve ' .

seperated , theyre easier to assimilate .

[phil c]

Dizziness is more a problem for us older folks, but really.
Just go out and fly, not with a fast combat plane.  Learn how to fly something slower and fly it a lot.

Do Not focus on the plane.  The background blurring by confuses the eyeballs.  Every lap pick a tree or something and focus on it very briefly just a blink or two.

As soon as possible learn the lazy eight(inside on the left, outside loop on the right) and then the contest eight (inside on the right then outside on the left) or a defensive eight(start with the half an outside on the left and inside on the right and continue).

Being able to do a maneuver in one place helps, even just an occasional loop.

Other things- do some exercises- like jumping jacks, and then try turning around slowly as you jump up and down, then turn the other way.  But pay attention so you don't fall over.

Medications can help temporarily.  But most of them affect reflexes too which can cause crashes.

Finally, just live with it. Ignore your ears and watch the plane and the horizon to keep upright. Military combat pilots fight vertigo all the time.  Half of them get so sick they vomit during 5 minutes of air combat maneuvering but they keep  flying.

[Frank Imbriaco]

See an ENT specialist. Having the inner ear checked out is important.

[Ken Culbertson]

Military combat pilots fight vertigo all the time.  Half of them get so sick they vomit during 5 minutes of air combat maneuvering but they keep  flying.

My experience with fighter pilots is that they almost never get sick from combat maneuvering.  Maybe our experiences are just different.  I was a weapons crew chief in the Air Force and I have sent thousands of them off to combat and was the first to greet most of them back.  Maybe our experiences are just different and I am sure that there are enough former pilots in our ranks to weigh in.  Vertigo - yes.

Ken

[john e. holliday]

I too get a little dizzy if I haven't flown for a couple of weeks.  I just open the needle to where the plane will get air borne and fly a tank or two then all is well.   The combat wings are great as I can start maneuvering them as soon as I start to get dizzy.  Even a few inverted laps helps a lot.  Even when I was much younger I used to get dizzy if I hadn't flown over the winter.   A couple of flights and all was well.  But as stated short tanks of 20-25 laps and go from there.

[Scott Richlen]

The background blurring by confuses the eyeballs.  Every lap pick a tree or something and focus on it very briefly just a blink or two.

Yes.  We are all different, but the suggestion that I have given returnees is to pick out background objects and focus on them to stop your eyeballs from moving.  Seems to help.  Go from one object to the next and let peripheral vision take care of watching the plane.  Obviously you need a slow and stable plane to do this.

[Paul Wood]

"Military combat pilots fight vertigo all the time.  Half of them get so sick they vomit during 5 minutes of air combat maneuvering but they keep  flying."

I think was meant as a joke, perhaps. I spent 6 years as a USAF T-38 instructor pilot flying 2-3 sorties per day. Also spent 18 years as a government "special projects" evaluation pilot. 42 years in the cockpit in all kinds of g-loading and extreme maneuvering. I've never come close to getting sick and have experienced vertigo only once. This is also true for the hundreds of fighter pilots and test pilots I've been with over the years. Not trying to be arrogant, just sharing my experiences.

Paul

[Ken Culbertson]

"Military combat pilots fight vertigo all the time.  Half of them get so sick they vomit during 5 minutes of air combat maneuvering but they keep  flying."

I think was meant as a joke, perhaps. I spent 6 years as a USAF T-38 instructor pilot flying 2-3 sorties per day. Also spent 18 years as a government "special projects" evaluation pilot. 42 years in the cockpit in all kinds of g-loading and extreme maneuvering. I've never come close to getting sick and have experienced vertigo only once. This is also true for the hundreds of fighter pilots and test pilots I've been with over the years. Not trying to be arrogant, just sharing my experiences.

Paul

I conferred with my younger brother on this one before I posted above.  He was a Navy (sorry about that but he never listens to me)  F-18 combat pilot and chief test pilot specializing in upset recovery.    He confirms your experience in almost the exact words you used.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

Yes.  We are all different, but the suggestion that I have given returnees is to pick out background objects and focus on them to stop your eyeballs from moving.  Seems to help.  Go from one object to the next and let peripheral vision take care of watching the plane.  Obviously you need a slow and stable plane to do this.

It is not your eyeballs, it is your head movement.  Dizziness comes from the fluid in your inner ear.  You have to train your brain to ignore what your ears are telling it.  By watching the plane your head stays motionless relative to your body and your ears sense the motion as normal and expect it to continue.  It is when you stop turning or change how you are turning that you get dizzy.  That is why the stop going into the RWO and outside loops feels different than all of the rest.  I have mastered the loop one but the RWO is still winning.  Most of the "tricks" we use seem to work because they are just what you do while your brain is learning to ignore the inputs.  Watch the plane, don't watch the plane, pick out a tree, chew sugarless gum.  Whatever you chose will work because it is the repetition that trains the brain to ignore the rotation.

You think we have it bad, try Ice Skating!

https://www.livescience.com/61795-ice-skating-brain-spin-dizzy.html

Ken

[Curare]

Interesting you mentioned ice skating Ken, I tend to do something similar when I get stuck with an bad motor run, or something else that stops me doing tricks.

I pick a point in the outfield, usually my flying buddy, and hold the plane at about 25° (you know where it is, you don't need to look, the lines tell you where it is) and stare at it while pivoting my body, then snap my head around to look at my buddy again, and usually continue the conversation, or just gesticulating wildly with my other hand (if the engine is too loud).

But, to stop the dizzyness, i would definetely reccomend teaching lazy eights, you can stand perfectly still and do them over and over and wider and wider, and it makes a nice transition to teaching inverted flight.

[Ken Culbertson]

Interesting you mentioned ice skating Ken, I tend to do something similar when I get stuck with an bad motor run, or something else that stops me doing tricks.

I pick a point in the outfield, usually my flying buddy, and hold the plane at about 25° (you know where it is, you don't need to look, the lines tell you where it is) and stare at it while pivoting my body, then snap my head around to look at my buddy again, and usually continue the conversation, or just gesticulating wildly with my other hand (if the engine is too loud).

But, to stop the dizzyness, i would definetely reccomend teaching lazy eights, you can stand perfectly still and do them over and over and wider and wider, and it makes a nice transition to teaching inverted flight.

My oldest daughter was a national level skater when she was little.  They start them early learning how to control dizziness.  Funny you should mention lazy 8's for learning inverted.  My mentor when I was a kid had a saying about learning inverted:  "You just keep stretching out lazy 8's until you don't have to rebuild the Flight Streak."  Great way to learn the lost art of dead stick wind flying too.

Ken

[Phil Spillman]

By all means focus on the plane! The World is turning NOT you! I suggest taking a handle and going off in the living room of some other place in the house alone and practicing the patterns in phantom! Go  through the motions as if flying the pattern including all laps between maneuvers plus take offs and landings@! In this way you're not risking any material, not using fuel but going around incircles and reducing the tendency to get dizzy! I did this myself when learning the patterns. The phantom practice helped me very much!


Phil Spillman

[Ken Culbertson]

By all means focus on the plane! The World is turning NOT you! I suggest taking a handle and going off in the living room of some other place in the house alone and practicing the patterns in phantom! Go  through the motions as if flying the pattern including all laps between maneuvers plus take offs and landings@! In this way you're not risking any material, not using fuel but going around incircles and reducing the tendency to get dizzy! I did this myself when learning the patterns. The phantom practice helped me very much!


Phil Spillman

Careful of one thing.  I "shadow" flew on and off for about 30 years to keep my brain remembering the pattern.  It worked, I was able to fly the whole thing on my 3rd flight.  BUT, when you give it control and it turns it isn't right in front of you anymore.  I am still having trouble with overlapping he 8's.  Give it some room for the corner so that you don't build up the muscle memory for a 0' corner!

Ken

[Dzlstunter]

I am 79 years old and for the first time recently developed some dizziness when flying.  I found two things which helped get me back to confident flying.  At first, I used a walking staff to insure I did not actually lose my balance.  (Think speed flyers.)  Second, I use a TV remote to substitute for a control handle in my living room and "walk through" flying a complete pattern.  It's working.

[Dennis Toth]

I like the idea of the throttle to allow landing when one feels dizziness coming on or the short flights. It really seems to be just a matter of flying enough to keep the brain from losing it. I fly Old Time and like it because you only do the two laps inverted then flip back to normal level flight and do your two laps level before the next maneuver. If I lay off for a few weeks it takes a few flights to get back in the groove.


Best,   DennisT

[Peter Grabenstein]

In my CL youth days, 45 years ago, my CL Mentors allways taught me,
you allways Focus the nose/engine of your model during flight.
Never look left or right, don't look behind, just Focus the engine/spinner
which helped me lot keeping me from beginner dizzyness.
One of my Mentors later became EC/WC Champ.

 
Peter

[Ken Culbertson]

In my CL youth days, 45 years ago, my CL Mentors allways taught me,
you allways Focus the nose/engine of your model during flight.
Never look left or right, don't look behind, just Focus the engine/spinner
which helped me lot keeping me from beginner dizzyness.
One of my Mentors later became EC/WC Champ.

 
Peter

I was taught the same and it works but modern research has taught us that it is the "training of the brain" to ignore the rotation that stops the dizziness.  That is why most all of the methods work.  Some better than others.  Now if I could just train my brain to not overlap intersections............

Ken

[phil c]

Careful of one thing.  I "shadow" flew on and off for about 30 years to keep my brain remembering the pattern.  It worked, I was able to fly the whole thing on my 3rd flight.  BUT, when you give it control and it turns it isn't right in front of you anymore.  I am still having trouble with overlapping he 8's.  Give it some room for the corner so that you don't build up the muscle memory for a 0' corner!

Ken

Ken the problem with the eights, and most of the other movements, is not dizziness.  You have to square up you body,  visualize the maneuver,  and look mainly at the center -pick a tree, bush, or some other landmark, and fly to keep it in the center of the maneuver.  If you primarily watch the plane and don't keep the center marker at least in your peripheral vision you can't see where the plane is supposed to be going.  Try not to do gymnastics to horse the plane around.  Unless you have great body sense(kinesthesia), great vision, and no dizziness you quickly lose track of where the airplane is if you don't keep oriented to where the maneuver is.

The judges usually stand directly behind you to get the best view of the maneuver.  As soon as you start, say a horizontal eight, a good judge will focus on where the plane hits vertical at the right altitude and watch you fly the maneuver around that point, using whatever background they can pick out for a reference.  They don't directly watch the plane, but the shape of the path the plane flies.  Try watching someone that way and you'll soon see what the judges do and be able to transfer it to what you see flying  the maneuver.

[John Carrodus]

Try standing in a swimming pool belt line deep, arm up flying an imaginary CL model. Or hang on to a rotatry clothes line with one hand and walk around in circles flying a mythical model. By doing this once or twice ( more the better) a week as comfortably and fast as you can, you will soon train yourself to turn quickly enough to keep up with a 5 second rotation. Practice inside in the lounge? Have a large couch ready for an undercarriage up landing if you need it! Now I have two knees and one hip replaced , I always fly with a walking stick in my hand and 'anchor' myself with my feet apart and stick firmly planted, this tripod helps me not to fall over when doing the high stuff. I find flying with my eyes open is best, although my mates tell me I fly better with them closed!

[Steve Dwyer]

Jumping into this topic brings back memories of when I got back into CL flying after being away for many moons. After restoring an old bird from the attic I thought I'd gotten too old to fly due to the dizziness when I first went up. After several attempts I decided to drive a broom handle into the ground, I was persistent and wasn't going to give up. Shortly thereafter, the dizziness subsided and I was able to fly solo without the "mental stability" of having the stick to simply touch as I rotated. Adding further gyrations, overhead eights and inverted brought back some discomfort, but that too soon dissipated as well.

I have now noticed with age and unfortunately finding the need for some meds that by definition tend to have slight side affects including imbalance when standing up too fast leaves one wondering when it will all come to an end. Do we wait until we lose a beautiful ship before calling it quits??? Regretfully it may I suspect eventually become time we must refer to stick and tissue modeling.  We'll have to walk retrieve our plane but that's probably a good thing.

Steve

[John Carrodus]

Steve , we could resort to a good bar stool with a footrest. When I was crook a few years back, I modified an office chair and that worked really well. Believe it or not , even a OS 20 pulled me around no problem! There is a guy in the USA building flying chairs too.

[Steve Dwyer]

John,

With the right bearings anything is possible. I guess just a swivel chair would work, I'm sure someone here has tried it. You'd still come away dizzy, there's nothing worse than that beer drunk spinning feeling sitting or standing.

Steve

[Dennis Toth]

A while back there was a thread on electric cut-off on demand that seemed to work with a simple clicker. One could fly until they were not comfortable then click off and land. Now this would not be legal for competition (it is not 2.4 Hz) but for just flying around at could be just what the doctor ordered.

Best,   DennisT

[john e. holliday]

Seeing this resurrected reminded me of why I lost my Canard Ringmaster during Ringmaster week end.  I now think of the late George Leib who stated he used throttle controlled planes to teach newbies and those that got dizzy.  I now have throttle control on some of my new planes.