Author Topic: Dissapointed in Sullivan starters (Read 4573 times)

frank mccune · « **on:** August 29, 2017, 03:52:34 PM »

Hi All:

I got out my two Sullivan starters, the standard yellow ones, and I was dismayed with the lack or torque that either one provided.

In the past I used these starters for starting engines .15-.40 but now, they will not crank a ringed HP .40 let alone the ASP .61. I can hold the starter cone between my thumb and forefinger and prevent it from turning. It seems to me that I can remember the day when I did this and lost some skin from my fingers.

I checked all of the connections and wires, they are the same size as the original wires, and all connections are secure. I used the battery in my car for a power source. As it now stands, these starters are not suitable to be used in starting engines.

Am I expecting too much or have these starters suddenly deteriorated? Any reports concerning these starters in your use?

Tia,

Frank McCune

Phillip Kenney · « **Reply #1 on:** August 29, 2017, 04:10:27 PM »

From what you described it sounds like the magnets in both starts have lost power at the same time, or more likely your starter battery doe not have the amps to do the job. Hook the starters up to you car/truck battery and check the torque.

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #2 on:** August 29, 2017, 04:56:08 PM »

Frank,
Do a simple test - try to spin the starting cone, if it spins with no resistance the magnets have a problem. If if kinda click's along, then the battery amps are the problem. Make sure you have a full charge on the battery and it should have plenty of kick for a 40.

Best, DennisT

Dan Berry · « **Reply #3 on:** August 29, 2017, 05:09:49 PM »

Does a Sullivan starter have brushes in the motor?
I don't know but if it has brushes and has been idle for a long enough time I would expect the commutator to be oxidized, which would slow it down a lot.

frank mccune · « **Reply #4 on:** August 29, 2017, 05:46:02 PM »

Hello Again:

Both starters show resistance when turned by hand.

I used the battery in my Nissan Maxima as it is new and fully charged.

What should the currant draw be when stalled vs. no load? Will this tell me anything?

Any additional suggestions?

Thanks for the replies!

Frank McCune

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #5 on:** August 29, 2017, 06:29:21 PM »

Most the advise above is probably good, but you might consider sending it to Sullivan for a diagnosis...OR just buy one at a swap meet for $10. Might want to look for a Hobbico, actually.

Bought my Sullivan starter for $10 at a club swap meet and eventually bought the Finer Edge Mfg. adapter ($50) to use Makita's latest 18v. LiIon battery packs. It turned out that my Sullivan starter is an early production one (which means probably 30-40 years old). It worked fine on a 7ah 12v gel cell as sold by Tower and most hardware stores and hobby shops. But the cord was a hazard, and I really wanted an integral battery/starter per my Kavan starter (with optional Ni-Cad pack). Since Kavan stuff is now difficult to get (Fritz & Franz retired), I wanted a replacement ready to go.

I already had to put a new switch on the Sullivan, because the original got to where it wouldn't shut off, which is very bad. Good news is that parts are available. The bad news was that the adapter's instructions didn't quite work (because of its vintage), but I managed to get it together. It's a friggin' BEAST on 18v., and spins my OS .46 VF (AAC via Randy Aero) like it's nothing...and it's something!

The guy that makes the Makita adapters recommends a Hobbico, because it's an easier conversion. In case you might go that way. Otherwise, about the same. He developed it for R/C Helicopters, of course. The heli guys use a long extension shaft on their starter, so the Sullivan starter's switch staying in the "on" position is well known and extra bad news.

For full disclosure, I didn't have a Makita drill kit, but wanted one, and when I found out I could also use the batteries to run my starter, I was all aboard with that. I have used the heck out of my Makita drill this summer building fences and gates, and it's awesome! So's the Sullivan starter. But I might be looking around at the swap meets for a newer version. There's at least 3 of these Sullivan/Makita conversions in the NW Skyraiders.

Another FYI, you can buy aftermarket cups for various starters, some made from polyurethane, some from silicone, etc. Can also get ones shaped specifically for "needle nose" spinners, which I figure should give more "traction". Check Tower and figure out what you want and then check at your LHS.

Steve

frank mccune · « **Reply #6 on:** August 29, 2017, 08:03:05 PM »

Hi Steve:

Thanks for the reply.

I too have an older Makita Drill but the battery pack is much different than the one that you show.

As far as dealing with Sullivan is concerned, I have had NO luck contacting them via phone. They will not return my calls so any help from them is out of the question. I did get through to them many years ago concerning the repair of a starter, and the cost was prohibitive. If I remember correctly, the repairs started at $48.00! I am hesitant to purchase on from E Bay as one does not know it they would function.

I was hoping that someone could offer a quick fix.

Be well,

Frank McCune

It seems that both of mine are quite old if that makes any difference.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #7 on:** August 29, 2017, 08:42:04 PM »

Frank...I've only ordered parts and hardware online from Sullivan, so your experience may trump (had to do it!) mine.

In your situation, I wouldn't be afraid to take one of them apart and see if the brushes are bad or stuck or such. I think it's fairly common practice to sand the commutator with sandpaper to clean the stuff off. If the bearings are good, you'll know it. If they're not, you'll know that also, and can probably get replacements cheap enough. The next thing I'd do is look for a Hobbico starter at a swap meet. With all the bods going electric, I'd bet there should be lots available.

Steve

Dan Berry · « **Reply #8 on:** August 29, 2017, 10:28:19 PM »

Run it for a while and see if it cleans itself.

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2017, 09:51:41 AM »

Good 12 Vdc battery, notchy starter when hand spun...

Sounds to me only 3 low/no performance causes..

Burned/dirty brushes/commutator
Or high resistance in the leads...broken strands at a connector?
Not as likely but the stitch could also be corroded and poor contact

If mine...disassemble, clean up, correct any power lead problems and get another 30 years out of it

I run mine off 2 NIMH car bats and a holder sold for that sized bat package...in my case 2ea 8.4 V 3000Mha in series to send 16.8Vdc
A heavy D motor does not really care what Vdc it is being fed as long as you know not to over heat it.... brief, under 15 second start use does not even get it warm

OH yea, mine is the el-cheapo Tower version

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2017, 11:28:51 AM »

These motors have the torque for the largest engines. Sounds like you have electrical resistance somewhere in the circuit. Simple test: run it for a while and check various areas on the motor to see if anything gets warm. That indicates power dissipated in a resistance. Easy to take apart. You might see the problem immediately.

Brushes last forever in occasional use. Copper oxide buildup on the commutator will be self-cleaning with some running.

Bill Johnson · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2017, 12:29:33 PM »

I bought a new Sullivan starter last year and it has poor torque as well. Starting an Enya 45, it wouldn't turn the motor over, even running it off the jeep battery while the jeep was running. I finally gave up and went back to hand flipping engines.

frank mccune · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2017, 07:21:42 PM »

Hello All:

I dismantled one starter and found that the commutator was covered in a black coating. I removed the coating and am attempting to get it back together.

How does on slip the brushes over the commutator?

I can tie the brushes into the brush holder but how do I release them to enable them to rest on the commutator? There are posts on the brush holders that enable one to loop the lead from the brush thus holding the brushes back to enable the bearing of the commutator to fit into the end cap. Question! How do I release the brush leads to enable for them to contact the commutator once the end cap is in place?

Perhaps I will drill a hole in the case where I can place the straw from a can of brake cleaner to direct the flow onto the commutator. This may eliminate having to dismantle the motor for cleaning.

Oh yes, "Easy to take apart." The flip side is it is HELL to reassemble!

Suggestions and/or comments?

Tia,

Frank Mc cune

Dan Berry · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2017, 09:28:36 PM »

You might be able to tie the brushes with thread.
With the idea that the thread will disintegrate when it spins.
It's a thought.

Peter Nevai · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2017, 11:45:17 PM »

I have had one of these for nearly 3 decades and still works well. Might think of trying one, not cheap though.

http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmart.exe/IndexText/FKAV011.html?E+Sig

frank mccune · « **Reply #15 on:** August 31, 2017, 06:31:11 AM »

Hi Dan:

Great idea but... would the motor function if there were a thread between the brushes and the commutator? I have an idea that they must be in physical contact.

There must be a simple way to get the motor reassembled. Perhaps it is time that I admit defeat and discard these two problems.

Suggestions?

Be well,

Frank McCune

Shug Emery · « **Reply #16 on:** August 31, 2017, 07:28:23 AM »

Quote from: Peter Nevai on August 30, 2017, 11:45:17 PM

I have had one of these for nearly 3 decades and still works well. Might think of trying one, not cheap though.

http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmart.exe/IndexText/FKAV011.html?E+Sig

I use one of those SIG starters and they are very powerful.
Shug

Dan Berry · « **Reply #17 on:** August 31, 2017, 08:19:14 AM »

Quote from: frank mccune on August 31, 2017, 06:31:11 AM

Hi Dan:

Great idea but... would the motor function if there were a thread between the brushes and the commutator? I have an idea that they must be in physical contact.

There must be a simple way to get the motor reassembled. Perhaps it is time that I admit defeat and discard these two problems.

Suggestions?

Be well,

Frank McCune

I'm thinking the thread will get cut and dissipate itself when the motor spins. It might need to be spun by hand initially.

frank mccune · « **Reply #18 on:** August 31, 2017, 10:34:26 AM »

Hi Dan:

Thanks for the reply:

What I am thinking is that if the brushes are tied back enough for insertion of the armature, they will not be touching the commutator to be able to be cut. However, If one could hold the brushes back with dental floss enough to enable another set of hands to install the armature. Then the floss could be pulled away from the brushes. This would allow the brushes to be pressed against the commutator via spring pressure. I now remember how I replaced brushes in auto generators back in the day. It was much easier than the Sullivan starter due to the brushes being held in a separate plate and not the end cap. I would like to see how Sullivan puts these things together.

Have a great day,

Frank McCune

Dan Berry · « **Reply #19 on:** August 31, 2017, 11:24:38 AM »

Quote from: frank mccune on August 31, 2017, 10:34:26 AM

Hi Dan:

Thanks for the reply:

What I am thinking is that if the brushes are tied back enough for insertion of the armature, they will not be touching the commutator to be able to be cut. However, If one could hold the brushes back with dental floss enough to enable another set of hands to install the armature. Then the floss could be pulled away from the brushes. This would allow the brushes to be pressed against the commutator via spring pressure. I now remember how I replaced brushes in auto generators back in the day. It was much easier than the Sullivan starter due to the brushes being held in a separate plate and not the end cap. I would like to see how Sullivan puts these things together.

Have a great day,

Frank McCune

Dental floss idea could work. It's only time.
frank Zappa would be pretty geeked...........

frank mccune · « **Reply #20 on:** August 31, 2017, 02:48:12 PM »

Hi All:

After many hours "fixing" my starter, it is no better than it was prior to being fixed. I cleaned the commutator and brushes and lubed the bearing in one end of the case. Oh yes, the dental floss worked really well but difficult to tie in knots.

When I get some time, I am going to check how much current the starter draws, It s a causing the voltage to drop on my glow plug supply. This seems incorrect. Thoughts about voltage drop. I thought that these panels would be connected and not show a drop in voltage when both are being used. Perhaps my main battery is growing old.

Be well,

Frank McCune

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #21 on:** August 31, 2017, 06:45:19 PM »

Look for holes that pins or toothpicks can be inserted into to hold the brushed back while assembling. Alternators and automotive starters are like this (well, 20+ years ago when I last rebuilt instead of replace)

If you have access to a lathe cut a couple .001 off to clean the commutator, or use very fine sandpaper (like 1000 grit) and carefully spin the rotor evenly in the paper. The brushes will take several runs to mate to the recut commutator, but it should be peppier right away.

Since you already did most of this stuff I am leaning to a bad wire in the main leads if the battery proves OK.

Phil

Dan Berry · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2017, 08:14:28 PM »

Does it have the strip switch?

frank mccune · « **Reply #23 on:** September 01, 2017, 12:56:41 PM »

Hi Dan et al:

Yes, it has a strip switch that appears to work very well.

Today, I compared my starter to a new Sullivan and a new Hobbico. Mine displayed the same amount of torque that the other two demonstrated. I guess that this is ass good as it gets!.

The brushes are attached to the end cap and when it is in position, one can not see the brushes. Oh yes, I remember replacing brushes in auto generators back in the day!!!!!

Be well my friends,

Frank McCune

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #24 on:** September 01, 2017, 02:44:25 PM »

Well, if you did all that work, you need to run it some more to help seat the brushes and things may improve as they re-seat and take a set again. If things have not improved, problems may exist in the battery clamps/connectors.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Dan Berry · « **Reply #25 on:** September 01, 2017, 04:07:33 PM »

Yeah, you've gotta be getting line loss somewhere.
I would try a hot patch directly to the terminals as a test.

The one I start FF planes with is from about 1976. It just hums away but I'll admit that the switch and all the wires are gone in favor of the foot switch that I use.

Robert Dible · « **Reply #26 on:** September 08, 2017, 05:28:34 PM »

Just bump up the voltage. The power is the voltage squared divided by the resistance. 18 volts will usually do it, gives 2.25 times as much power. The internal resistance of battlers also limit the power, because the delivered voltage is decreased by the internal resistance of the battery times the current. Gell cells are the worst, lead acid much better, nicads and LiPo are good.

Avaiojet · « **Reply #27 on:** September 10, 2017, 09:20:56 AM »

Quote from: Robert Dible on September 08, 2017, 05:28:34 PM

Just bump up the voltage. The power is the voltage squared divided by the resistance. 18 volts will usually do it, gives 2.25 times as much power. The internal resistance of battlers also limit the power, because the delivered voltage is decreased by the internal resistance of the battery times the current. Gell cells are the worst, lead acid much better, nicads and LiPo are good.

I still have a Sullivan starter someplace. I never used it on an engine I considered valuable. Just my sport stuff, like the K & B's I used.

I might look for it and place it in the classifieds.

CB

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 10, 2017, 12:34:24 PM »

I am hard pressed to think of any "engine I think is valuable" being damaged by THE PROPER USE OF A ELECTRIC STARTER

My personal opinion is...
I never engage more than BRIEF burst....no fire in 2 to 3 seconds...

find out if heat or fuel is missing
I do NOT to use E-finger on a engine I KNOW the crank pin contacts the Back plate
Never ever on a flooded engine with glow plug in.... I have, and do--- e-starter a bit to clear a flood once I remove the plug

Hey Charles, Frank is suggesting they are pretty weak junk....I will give you $10 for yours if you find it