Designed for the Veco 19

[Mike Griffin]

Does anyone know if there was ever a model designed specifically for the Veco19 engine?  I know there are model designs that the nomenclature says "19 size" but am curious to know if any model was designed just for that engine.

Thank you
Mike

[Brett Buck]

One of the Humbug used a Veco 19, I think. Any of the kit airplanes designed for "15-19" or "09-19" ,etc. will ted to be extreme bombs with the Veco, it's in the ballpark with the 20FP, and the airplanes are way too small - typically 250-270 square inches, which is the size of a good 1/2A stunt plane.

      Brett

[Mike Griffin]

One of the Humbug used a Veco 19, I think. Any of the kit airplanes designed for "15-19" or "09-19" ,etc. will ted to be extreme bombs with the Veco, it's in the ballpark with the 20FP, and the airplanes are way too small - typically 250-270 square inches, which is the size of a good 1/2A stunt plane.

      Brett

That was my thinking as well Brett.  The designs I am seeing would be much to small for the Veco 19.  I have 4 really nice Veco 19s I want to use.  If you have any suggestions for a design, please let me know.  I would like to put these engines on something that is compatible.

Mike

[Dave_Trible]

A light Dolphin should be a good choice as well as the Peacemaker or Papoose.

Dave

[Steve Berry]

My suggestion is The Shark 402. Sure, it was designed around the Brodak .25, but the Veco .19 should be up to the task, as well.

Steve

[Brett Buck]

A light Dolphin should be a good choice as well as the Peacemaker or Papoose.

Dave

+1 on that one, reportedly, Bill Fitzgerald's Veco 19 Dophin was the best of the WAM "A" Stunt planes, and arguably flew better than their "BC" planes of the era (McCoy 40s and the like).

       Brett

[Steve Helmick]

Veco Warrior would be a good match for a sleeve bearing Veco .19.  I had a Fox .201 in my Warrior, Missle Mist, 10x3.5 TF prop, .010" solids. Around 1968 or so, I often did square vertical 8's with it. Kinda fun, but not saying it would be a contest winner. In his early days, George Aldrich flew very lightly built Chiefs with a .19...McCoy Super Stunt, I think. The one built like an Enya, with the front unbolting and no backplate. Not a great engine, IMO.  Steve

[pat king]

Mike,
The Super Whipsaw II would be a good airplane for your Veco 19. The original said 19 to 35 on the box. With 41" wingspan and only 234 square inches of wing area a 35 makes it a rocketship. I flew my original with my Enya 35 III BB with a 9 X 8 prop. WAY TOO MUCH ENGINE!!!!!!!!!!!

Pat

[Dallas Hanna]

Does anyone know if there was ever a model designed specifically for the Veco19 engine?  I know there are model designs that the nomenclature says "19 size" but am curious to know if any model was designed just for that engine.

Thank you
Mike

Mike, the Bob Palmer/Veco Little T Bird was specially designed for the Veco 19.

[Brett Buck]

Mike,
The Super Whipsaw II would be a good airplane for your Veco 19. The original said 19 to 35 on the box. With 41" wingspan and only 234 square inches of wing area a 35 makes it a rocketship. I flew my original with my Enya 35 III BB with a 9 X 8 prop. WAY TOO MUCH ENGINE!!!!!!!!!!!

Pat

   The Veco 19bb is also going to be *vastly* too powerful for this airplane! 234 square inches is smaller than most of the good 1/2A stunt planes that fly well with a Medallion 049. It's about half-sized for a Veco 19.

    Brett

[Mike Griffin]

Veco Warrior would be a good match for a sleeve bearing Veco .19.  I had a Fox .201 in my Warrior, Missle Mist, 10x3.5 TF prop, .010" solids. Around 1968 or so, I often did square vertical 8's with it. Kinda fun, but not saying it would be a contest winner. In his early days, George Aldrich flew very lightly built Chiefs with a .19...McCoy Super Stunt, I think. The one built like an Enya, with the front unbolting and no backplate. Not a great engine, IMO.  Steve

Steve,

Is anyone still kitting the old Veco designs, like the Warrior, Chief, etc.?

Mike

[Dave_Trible]

   The Veco 19bb is also going to be *vastly* too powerful for this airplane! 234 square inches is smaller than most of the good 1/2A stunt planes that fly well with a Medallion 049. It's about half-sized for a Veco 19.

    Brett

I built both the Whipsaw and the Super Whipsaw about a half century ago.  This was when slow combat was big here locally and I was looking for something other than the standard Flite Streak which everybody flew.   Both are duds to fly.  The wing is mounted very low in the fuselage and that makes for decent 'inside' turns but almost won't turn 'outside'.  That was also a trait of the Sterling P 51 and likely the Yak which was similar.  If you built the flap working on the P51 it was a little better.  A couple of the early combat designs suffered the same trait.  Obviously the pilot didn't spent too much time going inverted or outside.  However the purpose hasn't been stated here-maybe that is acceptable.

Dave

[Motorman]

Don't know if it was made for it but I had one on a Ringmaster and it was magical. Ran it on 10 nitro/20 castor flat rich with a 9-4 apc. It had torque everywhere. Flew it so much it finally wore out.

MM

[Brett Buck]

Don't know if it was made for it but I had one on a Ringmaster and it was magical. Ran it on 10 nitro/20 castor flat rich with a 9-4 apc. It had torque everywhere. Flew it so much it finally wore out.

 Most of them around here are the same, Veco 19BB and a 9-4. You have a chance of slowing it down with the Veco compared to the 20FP. David's has a (completely worn out) Veco, Ted's wound up with a 19 after first the Veco 29, Johnson, 29, or something similar broke the crank, and David crashed it a few times.

    Jim Aron's 20-pointer (RSM Kit Box Model) originally had a Veco, later upgraded to a 20FP. With a 20FP and a 9-4 or 10-4 is vastly too fast. He flies with a depitched APC 9-4 or Bolly.

   Brett

[Steve Helmick]

Steve,

Is anyone still kitting the old Veco designs, like the Warrior, Chief, etc.?

Mike

Larry Richards did replica kits of many of the original Veco kits, but he's long since folded his tent. I'm not sure if he's still with us. I stopped by and saw & flew with him in Sparks, NV in 2007. The guy that designed the Warrior and some of those others passed a few years ago, but was selling authentic and accurate plans for them. I can't think of his name right now, but he did an engine column in MB, as I recall...but maybe MA. It's late, and I've noticed that my forgetter works way better when fully rested. As soon as I shut off the computer, I'll probably remember it, of course. And it will keep me awake! 

One thing that I would suggest is letting us know whether your Veco .19 is the sleeve bearing or ball bearing, because the power output is apparently considerably different, and I think all those Dolphins and such that flew well were the BB, and likely the "Little T-Bird" was designed for it. Some of the other suggestions would be better for the sleeve bearing .19, IMO.     Steve

[M Spencer]

was ever a model designed specifically for the Veco19 engine?

 I have 4 really nice Veco 19s I want to use. 

If you have any suggestions for a design, please let me know

   Timed at 89 on 8 x 6s with 20 % nitro thrown at it .
Just anutha ORIENTAL . So It IS KITTED .
Very fingertippy , near hair trigger.
V Good stunt pattern , less wound up .MNuffled even . Fox Muffflers .

7 inch from center to the FLAT FACE  . as in the thrust line . so 14 inch overall . Onemall . Keeps the propwash off the fuselage . Thats the theory anyway . Proportions as per Oriental . Puts them over a rib, too .Woiks Good .



Somebody who shall remain nameless , had put OS 35'Ses in it . THERE . THIS was NOT a Good Idea .



Did you say FOUR , up at a bit biigger , as the OS 15s are in it , see the ' 4 inch plank ' . A bit of stuffing around . Near final paint now . 70 odd ounces .

The Veco's arnt ( that ) light . So id think TWO would be cleverer . Theres a zillon of those twin things drawn up. Dunno if Keef's still gottem , There .
262s getrting rubbed back for a respray . Two Twennies er ideal , ticularly with a drop of nitro . The Vecos on 15 % are trouble free , deep 4 stroke . 9 x 4 s .

[Dan Berry]

Larry Richards did replica kits of many of the original Veco kits, but he's long since folded his tent. I'm not sure if he's still with us. I stopped by and saw & flew with him in Sparks, NV in 2007. The guy that designed the Warrior and some of those others passed a few years ago, but was selling authentic and accurate plans for them. I can't think of his name right now, but he did an engine column in MB, as I recall...but maybe MA. It's late, and I've noticed that my forgetter works way better when fully rested. As soon as I shut off the computer, I'll probably remember it, of course. And it will keep me awake! 

One thing that I would suggest is letting us know whether your Veco .19 is the sleeve bearing or ball bearing, because the power output is apparently considerably different, and I think all those Dolphins and such that flew well were the BB, and likely the "Little T-Bird" was designed for it. Some of the other suggestions would be better for the sleeve bearing .19, IMO.     Steve

Joe Wagner is who you were thinking of. Quite an interesting guy.

[Robert Zambelli]

Back in the early seventies, I saw Bob Baron flying a Veco 19 powered Humbug at a meet in upstate NY.
As I recall, the engine was reworked by Clarence Lee and turned a 9-5 or 9-6 Top Flite wood prop, running screaming lean the whole flight. Not sure if it was the plain or ball bearing version.
The plane seemed quite large, maybe 55 inches, no flaps and flew on 65 foot .012 solid lines.
The pilot’s skill was AMAZING!
Not sure but I think he won.
I don’t know if the design was ever published.

Bob Z.

[Mike Griffin]

Larry Richards did replica kits of many of the original Veco kits, but he's long since folded his tent. I'm not sure if he's still with us. I stopped by and saw & flew with him in Sparks, NV in 2007. The guy that designed the Warrior and some of those others passed a few years ago, but was selling authentic and accurate plans for them. I can't think of his name right now, but he did an engine column in MB, as I recall...but maybe MA. It's late, and I've noticed that my forgetter works way better when fully rested. As soon as I shut off the computer, I'll probably remember it, of course. And it will keep me awake! 

One thing that I would suggest is letting us know whether your Veco .19 is the sleeve bearing or ball bearing, because the power output is apparently considerably different, and I think all those Dolphins and such that flew well were the BB, and likely the "Little T-Bird" was designed for it. Some of the other suggestions would be better for the sleeve bearing .19, IMO.     Steve

Steve I just talked to Larry yesterday.  He is still in Sparks but has not cut kits in quite a while now.  He said his health is pretty good and has lost a lot of weight. 

Mike

[Steve Helmick]

Joe Wagner is who you were thinking of. Quite an interesting guy.

Yep, Joe Wagner, and you're correct about him having an interesting career in model aviation, at least.  Steve

[M Spencer]

Back in the early seventies, I saw Bob Baron flying a Veco 19 powered Humbug at a meet in upstate NY.
As I recall, the engine was reworked by Clarence Lee and turned a 9-5 or 9-6 Top Flite wood prop, running screaming lean the whole flight. Not sure if it was the plain or ball bearing version.
The plane seemed quite large, maybe 55 inches, no flaps and flew on 65 foot .012 solid lines.
The pilot’s skill was AMAZING!
Not sure but I think he won.
I don’t know if the design was ever published.

Bob Z.

HUMBUG >

           

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=11311



Mightve been a 10 x 4 , or a 9 x 4 . Readit somewhere .



pretty basic. Easy Build . of course , at 133% , with two engines . . . .

[Dennis Leonhardi]

The Little Thunderbird was designed specifically around the Veco .19 as has been stated; I've seen one fly quite well with a Fox .35, which is probably comparable in power.

Don Martin's "Baby Bird" is said to be a Little Thunderbird under a different name.  If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck ...

Dennis

PS: The Instruction Sheet for the Veco Tom Tom II actually specifies the Veco .19 for an engine, while the Papoose, Brave and Warrior list the .19 as the "Recommended" engine.

[Dallas Hanna]

The Little Thunderbird was designed specifically around the Veco .19 as has been stated; I've seen one fly quite well with a Fox .35, which is probably comparable in power.

Don Martin's "Baby Bird" is said to be a Little Thunderbird under a different name.  If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck ...

Dennis

Actually Don Martin's Baby Bird is smaller (40" span) than the Palmer Little T Bird at 46" span.  The Baby Bird original had an early Enya 19 for power but was more suited to a .15.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Actually Don Martin's Baby Bird is smaller (40" span) than the Palmer Little T Bird at 46" span.  The Baby Bird original had an early Enya 19 for power but was more suited to a .15.

Thanks for the straight scoop Dallas!  I forgot a plan for the Little Thunderbird by Bob English.

Dennis

[M Spencer]

seems theyre not going to specify Johnson Engines in Veco kits . 







a .19'd do nicely .

[Brett Buck]

There are two versions of the Veco 19, one will ball bearings, the other with plain bearing. Several people asked how to identify them, so I dug around and found some pictures. The difference is that the BB version has pockets in the crankcase for the ball bearings to go, the plain-bearing does not.

   Performance wise, anything I say about Veco 19s relates to the ball-bearing version, because that is the one that the locals have used very extensively (they were flying Banshees and Dolphinsin WAM A Stunt with a Veco 19bb 50-ish years ago - and it reportedly flew better than their regular airplanes at the time). I know very little about the plain bearing version, aside from the fact that they were considered the hot setup for Vintage/Nostalgia A Power FF. It may well be as good as the BB version but wear out faster, I do not know.

    A Veco 19BB is the only vintage engine around this size (at least that I am aware of)* that is in any way in the ballpark with the 20FP. The FP has a bit more power at very high revs, but the Veco handles larger props so you can make it up to some extent. I also note that they used to come with a muffler (from HB, apparently) that attached with a "dogbone" through the exhaust stack, replacing the RC exhaust throttle. But the current Mecoa version doesn't have any good way to attach it, and they apparently sold out of the HB mufflers. Also, whether it is required or not, the standard stunt use usually used an cooling baffle to keep the back side of the cylinder cool.

    Hope that helps.


    Brett

*I also have had several examples of the ST20/23 that may be a contender, too.

[M Spencer]

The little one of these , from the Fox .19 / ,.25 , / .35 fits on well , with the little alloy buttons intact . Home made strap . Often retap to 1/8 in. unc . as they strip .
A slotted full length tube with them on the outside to big bore outlet . So work o.k. & are lightish .

As theyre SIDE MOUNTED on a undercarrageless profile , hey skid better ! The damadge knocking thems less catastrophic perhaps . Tho theyve never been a problem in that respect .

Theres 10 million Veco 19 tests here : http://sceptreflight.com/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Veco%2019%20RC.html  first three are plain bearing . Looks like a right rip snorter .
The B B has a 12 m.m. shaft , like a S Tigre .46 . 

They used to run em on 20 % Nitro in S.M.A.E. ( 3.5 c.c. ) combat . 52 foot lines . Drag a dunger round at 90 m.p.h. , But so might a Enya 19 . A OS .25 from then is plain bearing , in the ' .20 ' case . So Light .

This is what comes in the K&B Veco .19 B B Box .



One bolt right thru to a flat bar through the holes that once were the rotateing exhaust R.C. shut off thing .

[Mike Griffin]

A sincere thank you for all of you that contributed to this thread.  I appreciate the information.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

This is a plan for the Pretender.  Was. thinking about this one also for the Veco19.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

The Williamson Ringmaster has a 40" Span but cannot find the wing area yet.  I like the looks of it and maybe a candidate for the Veco 19 BB.
Also would raise the wing in the fuselage by about 3/4".  Either that or put dihedral in it.

Mike

[Dennis Toth]

Mike,
The Pretender looks like a nice little ship. For information on the Veco 19 and Veco 19BB here is a link to the site that has reviews - http://sceptreflight.com/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Index.html . From the reviews the two engines are very different. The plain bear one has a torque curve that falls off quickly, the BB version has a pretty flat curve out to 12K ish. Interestingly, if you look at the K&B plain bear19 it has the same torque curve as the Veco 19BB. I think the BB was produced after K&B took over Veco engines and just used the same design elements as their 19. There is a muffler that they had for the RC version with the single bolt through the center, but you need the center bar mount, there, might be a tongue muffler.

Best,    DennisT

[Mike Griffin]

Mike,
The Pretender looks like a nice little ship. For information on the Veco 19 and Veco 19BB here is a link to the site that has reviews - http://sceptreflight.com/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Index.html . From the reviews the two engines are very different. The plain bear one has a torque curve that falls off quickly, the BB version has a pretty flat curve out to 12K ish. Interestingly, if you look at the K&B plain bear19 it has the same torque curve as the Veco 19BB. I think the BB was produced after K&B took over Veco engines and just used the same design elements as their 19.

Best,    DennisT

Thanks for the Information Dennis.  What I have are the Veco19 BB.  I think the Pretender looks good to.  Just want to make sure it will handle the 19 without screwing me into the ground.  It is a powerful little engine.  I do like the looks of the Pretender for a smaller profile ship.

Mike

[Brett Buck]

Thanks for the Information Dennis.  What I have are the Veco19 BB.  I think the Pretender looks good to.  Just want to make sure it will handle the 19 without screwing me into the ground.  It is a powerful little engine.  I do like the looks of the Pretender for a smaller profile ship.

  That's about the right size, but I do not like that airfoil very much, too pointy. It looks like it was intended to fair into existing machined LE stock.

      Brett

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

You don't state Veco 19 Series 100 (plain bearing) or the later ball bearing.  I like the Series 100, but am curious if the ball bearing one is better. Mine are on trainers, FWIW.

Peter

[Brett Buck]

You don't state Veco 19 Series 100 (plain bearing) or the later ball bearing.  I like the Series 100, but am curious if the ball bearing one is better. Mine are on trainers, FWIW.

Peter

  He has Veco 199bbs.

    Brett

p.s. I don't know if it is better or not, I presume so. But I have never even seen the plain-bearing type, anything I have ever said about it is referring to the 19BB. I think the comments referring to K&B are interesting, it looks kind of like a shrunken K&B 4011.

     Brett

[Mike Griffin]

You don't state Veco 19 Series 100 (plain bearing) or the later ball bearing.  I like the Series 100, but am curious if the ball bearing one is better. Mine are on trainers, FWIW.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Brett already answered and yes I have the BB Veco 19. 

Mike

[larry richards]

Larry Richards did replica kits of many of the original Veco kits, but he's long since folded his tent. I'm not sure if he's still with us. I stopped by and saw & flew with him in Sparks, NV in 2007. The guy that designed the Warrior and some of those others passed a few years ago, but was selling authentic and accurate plans for them. I can't think of his name right now, but he did an engine column in MB, as I recall...but maybe MA. It's late, and I've noticed that my forgetter works way better when fully rested. As soon as I shut off the computer, I'll probably remember it, of course. And it will keep me awake! 

One thing that I would suggest is letting us know whether your Veco .19 is the sleeve bearing or ball bearing, because the power output is apparently considerably different, and I think all those Dolphins and such that flew well were the BB, and likely the "Little T-Bird" was designed for it. Some of the other suggestions would be better for the sleeve bearing .19, IMO.     Steve   I'm still here and still getting questions on my old kit making. Larry from Richardskits

[Trostle]

The Williamson Ring Master was mentioned earlier.  A better Williamson design (in my opinion) would be the Gyrator.

Another "interesting" design for the Ball bearing Veco 19 would the the Lancer with a landing gear.  The Lancer was a combat ship, Detroit I-Beam wing, kitted by Berkeley.

Keith

[Dennis Adamisin]

Mike G:
Here's Don Holffelder's  "Sirocco" published in MAN on September 1978.  Looks like it was designed for Class "A" stunt as was flown out west in the days of WAM.  An inline design, with a modernish airfoil not often seen on this size airplane.  I always thought it was a pretty good looking bird.  Maybe some of our left coast friends remember it and can offer some comments about the original bird?