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Author Topic: Derek Moran"s brazing jig  (Read 1089 times)

Online Guy Markham

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Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« on: February 14, 2021, 10:55:17 AM »
Any one have one for sale or drawings of it ?  H^^
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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2021, 11:00:41 AM »
I find I don't need one. When you drill #31 then ream 1/8th the horn has to be tapped to get it on the rod. If it's too loose you can tap the hole with a ball peen to tighten it up.


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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2021, 01:19:45 PM »
Iíll look for the article.  It also tells you what materials to use and what hole clearance you need to allow the brazing stuff to flow into the hole.  The jig holds the parts in the right orientation and allows the rod to move along its axis for thermal expansion, concepts awareness of which I havenít seen evidence that other horn makers have.

I have a couple of additions to Derekís piece.  First, MAPP gas is now extinct (see Wikipedia).  It has been replaced by ethylene, sold in yellow cans as MAP-Pro, and maybe other names.  It has more phlogiston than propane and does the trick, even with my old torch.  Beware of mail ordering the stuff.  Shipping cost can be many times the price of the gas.  Get vaccinated and go to the hardware store.

My other issue is getting straight drill rod.  I havenít found a source for straight drill rod.
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Online Guy Markham

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2021, 01:48:58 PM »
Iíll look for the article.  It also tells you what materials to use and what hole clearance you need to allow the brazing stuff to flow into the hole.  The jig holds the parts in the right orientation and allows the rod to move along its axis for thermal expansion, concepts awareness of which I havenít seen evidence that other horn makers have.

I have a couple of additions to Derekís piece.  First, MAPP gas is now extinct (see Wikipedia).  It has been replaced by ethylene, sold in yellow cans as MAP-Pro, and maybe other names.  It has more phlogiston than propane and does the trick, even with my old torch.  Beware of mail ordering the stuff.  Shipping cost can be many times the price of the gas.  Get vaccinated and go to the hardware store.

My other issue is getting straight drill rod.  I havenít found a source for straight drill rod.
Go to Mc Master-carr- standard steel rods
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Online Guy Markham

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Wire for Horns
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2021, 02:04:43 PM »
Go to Mc Master-carr- standard steel rods

I am using this as it is larger than 3/32 " mw but smaller than 1/8" mw. ubricated 1080 Spring Steel Wire

    Heat Treatment: Hardened
    Tensile Strength: 261,000 psi
    Specifications Met: ASTM A228

Also known as music wire. This wire is coated with phosphate for corrosion resistance and lubricity. Use it for bundling and as tag wire. It will spring back after bending.
               
1 ft. Lg.
Dia.   Dia. Tolerance   Heat
Treatment   Temperature
Range   Pkg.
Qty.       Pkg.
0.105"   -0.001" to 0.001"   Hardened   Not Rated   25   8907K12   $9.51
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2021, 02:50:17 PM »
Any one have one for sale or drawings of it ?  H^^

   No, but its pretty obvious, if you have the machine tools to make it. And really, you can do something equivalent out of wood with hand tools - plane off the edge that holds the wire, then cut the clearance for the upright. Might get a little scorched, but it will work.

    What I do instead is thread a 4-40 pushrod through one of the ball link holes and put jam nuts on either side. Then clamp the crossbar and the wire into a bench vise, and carefully adjust it to be perfectly square. This holds it with the wire upright. Then apply flux, make a ring of the solder, drop it down on the wire so it fall onto the upright. Hit it with the MAPP gas, 5-10 seconds and you will see the solder melt and flow into the joint. Remove heat, let it cool. Done.

     Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2021, 03:54:07 PM »
Never mind Derekís article.  We gave you the gist of the jig, and you are using different materials. Your rod criterion is interesting:  something that McMaster-Carr will sell you that is straight. That could have saved me a lot of time.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Wire for Horns
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2021, 04:02:39 PM »
Also known as music wire.

   Do not use music wire, use A2 Air Hardening drill rod.

    Brett

Online Jim Svitko

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2021, 04:50:31 PM »
The A2 steel rod is what I use.  Works fine.  Available in different lengths.  I get it in 3-foot lengths.

A2 3/32 diameter rod, 3-foot length:  McMaster Carr part number 8888K211
A2 1/8 diameter rod, 3-foot length:  McMaster Carr part number 8888K181

The flux and brazing wire also available from McMaster Carr.  Probably available elsewhere but I am no longer in the mood to run around town looking for something I can get on line these days.


Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2021, 04:51:12 PM »
I use this jig that is simple to make and easy to use. And as Brett stated the Air Hardened Drill Rod along with Alpha Fry 0.2 oz. Lead-Free Specialty Brazing Kit available from Ace Hardware. https://www.acehardware.com/departments/tools/welding-and-soldering-tools/soldering-accessories/24646

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Online Jim Svitko

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2021, 05:39:07 PM »
A somewhat crude version of Derek's jig.  It works well enough for me.  Materials are available from just about any hardware store.

1/8 X 1.5 wide steel; 1/8 X 1 X 1 steel angle.  Clamp one end in a vise.  Secure the horn blade to the angle with a small C-clamp.

Online Guy Markham

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Re: Wire for Horns
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2021, 07:07:56 AM »
   Do not use music wire, use A2 Air Hardening drill rod.

    Brett
  WHY NOT USE MUSIC WIRE ??????
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Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: Wire for Horns
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2021, 08:32:48 AM »
  WHY NOT USE MUSIC WIRE ??????
Hi Guy,
Piano wire can be brittle (especially the newer stuff) and will fracture if the radius of the bend is too tight or small.

Dennis
If at first you don't succeed ---- let someone else try it!  ;)

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Wire for Horns
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2021, 09:46:58 AM »
  WHY NOT USE MUSIC WIRE ??????


    Because you can never control the temper well enough to avoid either hard spots or soft spots without extensive tempering afterward. If you have a hard spot, it is likely to crack.
 
     Brett

Online Guy Markham

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2021, 09:56:43 AM »
Never mind Derekís article.  We gave you the gist of the jig, and you are using different materials. Your rod criterion is interesting:  something that McMaster-Carr will sell you that is straight. That could have saved me a lot of time.
             Tight-Tolerance Air-Hardening A2 Tool Steel Rod
7/64" Diameter, 3 Feet Long
8888K161 YOU COULD ALSO USE THIS ROD SIZE-INSTEAD OF 1/8TH
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2021, 10:22:33 AM »
   No, but its pretty obvious, if you have the machine tools to make it. And really, you can do something equivalent out of wood with hand tools - plane off the edge that holds the wire, then cut the clearance for the upright. Might get a little scorched, but it will work.

    What I do instead is thread a 4-40 pushrod through one of the ball link holes and put jam nuts on either side. Then clamp the crossbar and the wire into a bench vise, and carefully adjust it to be perfectly square. This holds it with the wire upright. Then apply flux, make a ring of the solder, drop it down on the wire so it fall onto the upright. Hit it with the MAPP gas, 5-10 seconds and you will see the solder melt and flow into the joint. Remove heat, let it cool. Done.

     Brett
Brett:

What solder do you use.  I have had very poor luck brazing and I think it is the solder and flux I use.

Thanks - Ken
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2021, 11:26:41 AM »
Brett:

What solder do you use.  I have had very poor luck brazing and I think it is the solder and flux I use.

Thanks - Ken

    Any of the silver bearing solder or brazing alloys will work and use their flux,, the torch is the next critical component.  You need a torch hot enough to get it to the proper temperature fast. Then as you heat it, keep the torch moving, pulling it back a bit if you see it's too hot and oxidizing. When you see the solder flow, pull the torch away slowly but keep the joint in the flame out near the end and toy will still see it cooling. The flame protects the joint from the atmosphere as it cools down from the critical temps.  Letting it cool as slowly as you can helps keep the rod from getting too hard. the flame keeps the air off of it . If you are using drill rod, it is at this point that you could drop the assembly into a small tub of lime dug out a bit t accept it.  This will really slow the cooling down and keep the drill rod from getting too hard.  It may take an hour or so.
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Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2021, 12:37:23 PM »
From my experience, the silver content is important. It should be at least 45%, best is 56%.
Regards,

Wolfgang

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2021, 12:45:42 PM »
Brett:

What solder do you use.  I have had very poor luck brazing and I think it is the solder and flux I use.

  I use the Alpha Fry kit from a local hardware, but anything similar would be satisfactory.  A link is in the previous thread. It's really very easy presuming you have the right material and an adequate torch, literally 15 seconds of actual soldering, flows out into perfect fillets on both sides, even if you put it on only one.

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2021, 12:52:32 PM »
    Any of the silver bearing solder or brazing alloys will work and use their flux,,

   I note that there are many soft-solders labelled "silver bearing" solder, like StaBrite, that are unsuitable. StayBrite, Kester makes one, and I am sure there are others. These have small amounts of silver (typically 4%) in regular tin or tin/lead soft solder. They are a little stronger than 60/40 or 63/37, but not adequate for the simple hole through an upright joint on a control horn - as many people have discovered, the hard way.

   Anything you can melt with a soldering iron/gun is not good enough, you need real brazing materials and a torch. I think the silver content matters to the strength in these, and the more silver, the stronger,, but I have used regular brazing rod with no silver (like you would use with cast iron) and it worked, too.

     Brett

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2021, 01:56:34 PM »
Really, anything that holds the parts still and square will work.   Easy to over complicate this.  I drew up something like Derek's jig, but there are many ways to accomplish the task. After looking at Jim Svitko's effective jig, my drawing is probably too complex!

I took Brett's advice and used the Alpha-Fry kit from Ace Hardware that Dennis linked above. A2 drill rod sourced from Grainger.  Works great! The price and quantity of this braze kit is just right for hobby use.

https://www.acehardware.com/departments/tools/welding-and-soldering-tools/soldering-accessories/24646
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2021, 03:03:02 PM »
   I note that there are many soft-solders labelled "silver bearing" solder, like StaBrite, that are unsuitable. StayBrite, Kester makes one, and I am sure there are others. These have small amounts of silver (typically 4%) in regular tin or tin/lead soft solder. They are a little stronger than 60/40 or 63/37, but not adequate for the simple hole through an upright joint on a control horn - as many people have discovered, the hard way.

   Anything you can melt with a soldering iron/gun is not good enough, you need real brazing materials and a torch. I think the silver content matters to the strength in these, and the more silver, the stronger,, but I have used regular brazing rod with no silver (like you would use with cast iron) and it worked, too.

     Brett

     Well, I forgot to add the caveat " with proper joint design."  On something like 1/8" rod a typical soldering iron wouldn't get hot enough any way. I have been trained and doing this stuff for a living for over 40 years, and used I to teach it, so I know what I'm doing and what to look for. I have lots of stuff out there done with StayBrite that works just fine, lots of stuff in industry that I have done also with it that worked fine. In my experience, torch and technique are just as, if not more important. Nothing automatic about the process at all. Add in a good portion of practice also. Most people never get good results with anything on their first try. Most don't know what to look for either. The 40 to 50% silver stuff is nice but the price is beyond prohibitive for a large percentage of people who would only do this once in a while and they don't know where to get it. I was also taught to never use MAPP gas either because it was a dirty manufactured gas and on critical work could cause some inclusions. I have not heard of the new stuff Howard mentions, I have my own small Oxy-Acetylene torch and it makes the job a lot easier but who is going to buy a small rig just to do control horns? The reality is 95% of the people reading this will never try it, don't have the equipment or the interest in getting it. Picking up the phone and calling Oakie is much easier and no learning curve!  Drill rod is ground to size, and has a surface that is more suited to accepting any kind of soldering or brazing material and that is a plus in it's favor, while music wire has the case hardening type of finish that complicates things.  Staybrite is available for a most of us, is reasonably priced with decent quality, but like any tool, you have to learn how to use it correctly, and that is true of any brand that you use until you gain some practice and experience. Even swinging a hammer to drive in a nail takes some practice and there are people that can't do that!   My first experience with air hardening tool steel was with D-2 used in making forming dies. I was involved with modifying the existing car frame forming dies for the local A.O.Smith plant that made the car frames for old Chevy plant in North St. Louis years ago. To meet the imposed mandates for fuel economy by the government in the mid 70's, Chevrolet started with trying to make their cars lighter and started that by making the frames with .030" thinner steel. I had the job of welding up the die sections, which were D-2 air hardened steel, and then they were hand ground and polished back to proper shape to match the female side of the dies.  It's a long, HOT, HOT, process and but was very educational. I had some one call BS on me once and told me that tool steel can't be welded, that it's too hard. Well, if it can't, I sure did a hell of a lot of it that summer and there were sure a lot of cars built with those frames that were made with those dies! 
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Online Jim Svitko

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2021, 03:45:25 PM »
I use the MAP Pro gas that Howard mentioned.  Available from Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. most of the time.  Some have it on the shelf, some do not.  Price varies but usually around $12-$15.  Look for a yellow cylinder.

One thing I discovered is that you can get things a bit too hot.  If too hot, the braze will not flow well, if at all.

Propane might work as well but I heard it does not get as hot as the MAP Pro.  The difference might not be enough to matter but I am staying with what works.  Maybe I experiment with propane later.

If anyone thinks this is beyond their capabilities you should reconsider.  I was wary of making such a critical part but after trying it out it is not at all difficult.  The advantage of making your own horns is that you can tailor the geometry to what you need.  And, one day, you might not be able to find someone to make them for you.

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2021, 05:04:16 PM »
I purchased a Bernzomaticģ Brazing Torch Kit https://www.bernzomatic.com/Products/Hand-Torches/Manual-Ignition/WK5500OX about 5 or 6 years ago for about $30. It appears the price of this unit has gone up considerably at around $65+ and is available online.

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2021, 05:19:32 PM »
If you use the Alpha Fry solder and flux from Ace you can use a propane torch and I actually prefer it. You want to heat the joint just enough for the silver to flow but not so much that you reach the critical temp of the drill rod. This is easy to do with propane. This was all covered in another thread a few months ago.

Clean the metal well, coat everything with flux and assemble. Stand it up vertical, make a small ring of solder for the top and heat from below until it flows then quickly remove the torch. Let it air cool and the rod will still be in the annealed state.

If you're worried you used too much heat, you can polish the rod to bare metal then lightly heat it until it gets a light straw color to draw the temper out, doesn't take much

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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2021, 05:21:06 PM »
I use the MAP Pro gas that Howard mentioned.  Available from Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. most of the time.  Some have it on the shelf, some do not.  Price varies but usually around $12-$15.  Look for a yellow cylinder.

One thing I discovered is that you can get things a bit too hot.  If too hot, the braze will not flow well, if at all.

Propane might work as well but I heard it does not get as hot as the MAP Pro.  The difference might not be enough to matter but I am staying with what works.  Maybe I experiment with propane later.

If anyone thinks this is beyond their capabilities you should reconsider.  I was wary of making such a critical part but after trying it out it is not at all difficult.  The advantage of making your own horns is that you can tailor the geometry to what you need.  And, one day, you might not be able to find someone to make them for you.

     Well, you want the heat source to be too hot, so you can get the point of the joint to temp faster to apply the soldering/brazing material. The worst thing on a lot of work is a too cold  heat source because the parent material involved is sucking away the heat and before long everything is hot except for where you want it.  Get in, get it hot and get out. You learn to "control" the heat with torch setting and distance from the piece and by what you see. The big part of the flame is not the hottest part, but plays a part in keeping atmosphere off the joint to keep it from oxidizing. If you have the correct equipment and a good idea of what is going on, the way Brett describe the joint prep and the little ring of solder/brazing material is as close as you can get to be "automatic", but still takes some understanding of what's going on and using the torch correctly and that takes some practice. If you work in industry, have been around stuff like this your whole life and have some good exposure to it, plus some practical experience, it helps a lot. Some people just haven't even had the exposure. After trying to teach this stuff to people, you can see what the differences are in them. To teach some one proper torch technique, I tell them you have to be able to use your hands in conjunction with your eyes without looking at them. That makes no sense to a high percentage of people. A simple test is to see if some one can tie their shoe without looking at them. I actually used that as a practice lesson on beginners. You would be surprised at how many people can't do it.

    Way back in the dark ages when I went to welding school, MAPP gas was hardly available in my area. It may have been 30 years or so before I ever saw a cylinder of it. It is a manufactured gas, and like I said , I was taught that it was dirty in nature and not as hot as acetylene but more stable. No place I ever worked had it on hand and most weld shops didn't carry it. Why it's not made any more I have no idea. I would like to play with this new stuff some time.  Lots of things have changed since I was in school. I know what I learned about TIG welding basics in school as far as tungsten usage for what metal and other fundamentals. In my job search over the last 6 or 7 years I had to take an occasional welding test, and that was my first exposure to some of these changes! Certain things are just not done the way I was taught any more. When I bought my TIG welder a couple of years ago, I asked for certain types of tungsten electrodes and found that they aren't available any more! Something new was developed to take their place and no one sent me the memo! And it has a name that sounds like it came out of a comic book.!!  The new machines are incredible, and the one I bought was near the higher end of things, capable of up to 200 amps of capacity, but still only needs a 20 amp , 110VAC primary supply!  And it only weighs about 60 pounds. When I first bought a house, and was thinking of getting my own machine then, something similar would have cost me $10,000 or so plus a three phase line service run to my house or a phase converter. Not in the budget at that time. As soon as I get squared away in my retirement I may take some courses in the new methods and materials just so I can take better advantage my machine.

    When I break something I weld it back together without even thinking about it, its so second nature. Sometimes I kind of take that for granted a bit, and wonder why some one threw something away because it was so easy to fix. Same way with fabricating parts. If I need it I make it. I agree, that if someone has any doubts about doing the work, they should reconsider it just from the stand point of expense sometimes and for safety and just buy the parts they need. But some stuff is pretty basic, and can be done with good instruction and proper procedures are followed and not a lot of expense involved.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2021, 11:30:37 PM »
Since this discussion, I found a source of straight A2 drill rod: Zoro.  The rod I got for them was straight enough it could actually have been used to make a drill.  The 76" cardboard tube it came in by itself allowed plenty of room for thermal expansion of the 36" rod.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Derek Moran"s brazing jig
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2021, 06:39:06 AM »
.... you have to be able to use your hands in conjunction with your eyes without looking at them.
Dan, that quote belongs at the beginning of every article devoted to learning the pattern.  I have tried for years to describe "the minds eye".  Thanks

Ken
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