DeBrief: Brodak Senior Stunt Challenge

[Dennis Adamisin]

At the Brodak, we debut the Senior Stunt Challenge, a pattern designed for flyers who have Vertigo or other physical issues that inhibit their ability to fly vertical & overhead maneuvers.  The event was limited to flyers 75 & older as described in this earlier post: https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/brodak-senior-challenge/msg684060/#msg684060

In that earlier thread there was a lot of commentary and (I thought) a fair amount of interest, however only three people pre entered and a 4th volunteered to fly on the date of the event. Some folks noted the age limit, lots more sounded interested but play wait & see.  Tim Stagg & Joe Gilbert volunteered to judge.  Skip Chernoff was first up and thus recorded the first "official' completion of the new pattern.  Skip flew a Viking OTS model.  George Waters & Alan Buck flew profile stunters, Bob Whitney damaged his 1/2A stunter in round 1 then had a flameout with his Ringmaster in Round 2.

Even with the lack of entries, interest was high, as noted by the number of spectators watching the show!.  lots of questions, and comments, I sincerely hope people take this pattern home to their clubs and fly it there, hopefully reclaiming some of their flyers who are frustrated by vertigo or other physical infirmaries.

We used a "soft" top of maneuver boundary of 45-60 degrees inclusive.  Meaning that below 45 or above 60 was an error.

Did not use the Spot Landing bonus, the intended set-up was NOT friendly to variations in wind direction and Judge location.  More thought is needed on this.

Ed Waske brought one of the rotating hunting chairs but none of our entries used it.  After we were finished flying our event,  I borrowed Wayne Smith's Ringmaster and flew the Senior Challenge Pattern from the chair.  First thing I noticed was that the chair had been set out but not levled - which made it a bit unruly to fly from.  Other than that it was not very hard to get used to. During the pattern I "walked" the chair to rotate it, but after the pattern I picked up my feet and let the Ringmaster pull me around - it did so easily.  Scott Richlen had told me that it was even possible to make the chair spin faster than the airplane was flying - and he was right!  holding the handle slight behind (to the right of body center) would cause the chair to accelerate, moving the handle to the left into a "leading" position would slow the chair which would then start falling behind the airplanes lap speed.  I was not hard to find an equilibrium position.  Scott said his club had modified their chair by adding a foot rest since it gets uncomfortable sitting and holding your feet straight out.


IDEAS THAT MIGHT BE USED NEXT YEAR:
* Remove the age limit, instead, the pilot's age will be added to the flight score.  Think of it as "calendar points"!

* Target 45 degrees, not 45-60 degrees.  The wider range was used because of the "new" aspect of the 3 added maneuvers, in reality all are easy to do at 45 degrees just like the rest of the non-new maneuvers.  Besides, just like now, if a pilot is uncomfortable holding maneuvers to 45 they opt for something larger, while risking point deductions.  Biggest payoff is that it makes it easier for the judges to reward maneuver consistency.

* Might MANDATE flying from the rotating chair. Could it be an equalizer?

* Reduced flight duration.  We used the normal 8 minutes.  Two flights had over-runs.  The pattern is a little shorter and could probably be done safely in 6 minutes.

[Scott Richlen]

It was fun to watch and there was a good-sized crowd watching it.  I wouldn't worry too much about the number of participants at this first showing - I think it was well received and there were a number of people younger than 75 that asked about participating (but will have to wait a few years....)  So, I think you are off and running!

I think your 4 proposed changes would be good ones.  Thanks for doing this!

[Rusty]

At the Brodak, we debut the Senior Stunt Challenge, a pattern designed for flyers who have Vertigo or other physical issues that inhibit their ability to fly vertical & overhead maneuvers.  The event was limited to flyers 75 & older as described in this earlier post: https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/brodak-senior-challenge/msg684060/#msg684060

In that earlier thread there was a lot of commentary and (I thought) a fair amount of interest, however only three people pre entered and a 4th volunteered to fly on the date of the event. Some folks noted the age limit, lots more sounded interested but play wait & see.  Tim Stagg & Joe Gilbert volunteered to judge.  Skip Chernoff was first up and thus recorded the first "official' completion of the new pattern.  Skip flew a Viking OTS model.  George Waters & Alan Buck flew profile stunters, Bob Whitney damaged his 1/2A stunter in round 1 then had a flameout with his Ringmaster in Round 2.

Even with the lack of entries, interest was high, as noted by the number of spectators watching the show!.  lots of questions, and comments, I sincerely hope people take this pattern home to their clubs and fly it there, hopefully reclaiming some of their flyers who are frustrated by vertigo or other physical infirmaries.

We used a "soft" top of maneuver boundary of 45-60 degrees inclusive.  Meaning that below 45 or above 60 was an error.

Did not use the Spot Landing bonus, the intended set-up was NOT friendly to variations in wind direction and Judge location.  More thought is needed on this.

Ed Waske brought one of the rotating hunting chairs but none of our entries used it.  After we were finished flying our event,  I borrowed Wayne Smith's Ringmaster and flew the Senior Challenge Pattern from the chair.  First thing I noticed was that the chair had been set out but not levled - which made it a bit unruly to fly from.  Other than that it was not very hard to get used to. During the pattern I "walked" the chair to rotate it, but after the pattern I picked up my feet and let the Ringmaster pull me around - it did so easily.  Scott Richlen had told me that it was even possible to make the chair spin faster than the airplane was flying - and he was right!  holding the handle slight behind (to the right of body center) would cause the chair to accelerate, moving the handle to the left into a "leading" position would slow the chair which would then start falling behind the airplanes lap speed.  I was not hard to find an equilibrium position.  Scott said his club had modified their chair by adding a foot rest since it gets uncomfortable sitting and holding your feet straight out.


IDEAS THAT MIGHT BE USED NEXT YEAR:
* Remove the age limit, instead, the pilot's age will be added to the flight score.  Think of it as "calendar points"!

* Target 45 degrees, not 45-60 degrees.  The wider range was used because of the "new" aspect of the 3 added maneuvers, in reality all are easy to do at 45 degrees just like the rest of the non-new maneuvers.  Besides, just like now, if a pilot is uncomfortable holding maneuvers to 45 they opt for something larger, while risking point deductions.  Biggest payoff is that it makes it easier for the judges to reward maneuver consistency.

* Might MANDATE flying from the rotating chair. Could it be an equalizer?

* Reduced flight duration.  We used the normal 8 minutes.  Two flights had over-runs.  The pattern is a little shorter and could probably be done safely in 6 minutes.

I think the rules should be changed to accommodate people with the aforementioned disabilities who are younger.  If someone presents a medical statement that they had neck surgery or have vertigo, that should allow them to fly in that group.  I have 4 vertebrae fused in my neck from a car accident when I was 43.   I know people who have vertigo younger than the ages you have.  It should be using the age and verified disability, both. 

[Ken Culbertson]

I know people who have vertigo younger than the ages you have.

I had a serious dose of it in my 40's.  I learned something.  Vertigo is a medical condition and makes it nearly impossible to simple look up and stand.  The whole world might spin for a couple of minutes.  What happens when you get old is different.  You have trouble with your balance and it is not your ears so much as it is the nerves in your feet.  That's why the chair is such a good idea.  Maybe there should be some sort of test.  I can still bend back and look straight up at the OH8 intersection if I get me feet planted.  It would be unfair for me to fly , even though 75 is well in the rear-view mirror, against those that need help to the middle of the circle.  The chair evens the playing field.

Ken

[Dave_Trible]

I think this is a good idea for many.    I also think it should be kept sort of low key and self policing .   You know if you should be in this group or not.  I would think if you are more able you would stay in the regular categories by choice.   I doubt any particular age barrier or condition is helpful or necessary.   


Dave

[Rusty]

I think this is a good idea for many.    I also think it should be kept sort of low key and self policing .   You know if you should be in this group or not.  I would think if you are more able you would stay in the regular categories by choice.   I doubt any particular age barrier or condition is helpful or necessary.   


Dave

I agree.  How can it be changed?  Will, the rules be amended to say that a person can speak to the CD and explain their condition and a decision will be made considering the criteria?   The bottom line is that if someone says they have a disability, when they fly you should be able to tell if it is true or not. 

[Mike Palko]

I would let the contestant choose whether they want to stand or use the chair. I’d hate to see someone lose an airplane because they had to sit and were uncomfortable for any reason. Or, discourage someone who wants to stand. I’d be happy just seeing someone fly who maybe wouldn’t/couldn't due to current pattern requirements.

Mike

[Dennis Toth]

Dennis, a few years back we had an event at a local contest in Jupiter, FL that was called Supper 52. The idea was to allow any design and fly the 1952 pattern. We wanted to get more people to participate who may only have a PA ship, profile or any favorite design that came after the 1952 cutoff date for OTS. It was also though that us older guys could fly it because the 52 pattern is simpler and doing the inverted right after the insides in the PA pattern caused you to then have to stop and go directly into the outsides which is difficult for some.

You might want to consider this approach and allow everyone to leave out one maneuver and use the straight scoring system (no K factor). This pattern cuts the flight time to around 4 1/2 minutes. You could also consider reducing the number of consecutive maneuvers to match the PA pattern (3 loops instead of 5, 2 eights instead of 3). Just a though, I like the idea of something for older flyers to still participate and have fun.

Best,   DennisT

[jerry v]

I think it will be a good idea to have a spotter for the pilot. To help walk in-walk out of the circle, to pick up -put down the handle on the ground. Shadowing during the flight, being ready to take over the controls. Help rotate the chair. Maybe use the engine/motor shut-off. Basically aid the pilot like trainer. Typical situation with senior citizens- mentally they are capable of everything and anything. But physically they discover pretty quickly the limits. And even after they fell, they try to do it again. Human being will never give up!

Jerry