News:



  • July 08, 2025, 04:48:02 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Dealing with electrical shocks  (Read 1858 times)

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14501
Dealing with electrical shocks
« on: August 19, 2022, 06:45:26 AM »
Since it just came up again, I am considering what if anything we can do by way of rules/guidelines/technique to deal with shocks through the lines.

   For those not present, the event that shut us down in the Top 5 flyoff was actually electrical shocks. Howard got significant shocks on his second-round flight and chose to fly out the flight level. Afterwards, he told the judges that he got shocked and it was too dangerous to continue, but apparently this was dismissed. Then David went out for his flight and same thing happened, and then we called it off. For a while it looked like they were going to count Howard's flight, but I think it all amounted to a misunderstanding and Howard's opinion was blown off.   

      This is hardly the first time we have had a situation like this. At the 93 NATs on Top 20 day,  Paul was very notably getting shocked all way down to his feet, where the arc jumped from his foot, around the edge of his shoe, and then to the ground. This was also as storm was very obviously moving in. Lesser known example was from 93 NATs practice (I think Sunday) where Bob Whitely and Lucky Pyatt were out flying with a *huge* thunderstorm moving in. My brother and I warned them about it, and Whitelyblew it off, and said something to the effect that "the lines will burn through before it kills you", apparently not noticing that the lightning was already jumping 5 miles through clear air.  We went off-site, where in town lightning was striking every stationary object in Lawrenceville, IL. I see Lucky at appearance judging and he has bandages on all the knuckles of his right hand. I ask him what happened, and apparently a few minutes after we left, he had been flying and a huge discharge jumped from the bar on his Baron handle to his fingers and blown/burned all the skin off.

   Again, 2004 WC, storm was moving in and everyones hair, even mine, was standing on end just standing in the pits. I suggested that we stop, but we kept going and several people were getting very nervous. Even Billy was half-scared to go, but it was his turn and with no one saying he could delay for lightning, he had to go anyway. Then about halfway through the flight, then, finally, someone saw lightning and the contest was called. There's another case, like the NATs, where we probably should have not let several of those flights go due to obvious possibility of danger.

    Static can build up even in clear air, but is not dangerous, just annoying, and the usual fix is to wrap a ground wire around the handle to continuously bleed off the charge, rather than having it build up and then jump the smallest gap and give harmless shock, like rubbing your feet on the carpet. But with approaching storms (or nearby electrical sources*) or visible or audible lightning, the normal charge in the air is greatly increased, and of course, lightning is possible.

    It's not always a problem, I was flying my Top 20 flight in 2015 and we heard the first audible thunder that day about halfway through my vertical 8, and I got nothing out-of-the-ordinary on that flight and I finished with no problems. But we stopped the contest for a while until that storm passed through.

     In this years NATs case, apparently no one really paid attention to what Howard told them and maybe thought he just needed some grounding. This despite having very ominious looking "mamma" clouds that almost always indicate impending or just-passed severe thunderstorms from horizon-to-horizon all morning.

    We need to do something, rules-wise, guideline-wise, to deal with this because I think we have just been lucky not to get someone killed. Other sensitive activities (like a rocket launch) have criteria like lighting within 5 miles (NASA and Air Force, after Apollo 12 got struck by lightning *twice* shortly after launch, the lightning hitting the rocket and then using a discharge path through the ionized exhaust), audible thunder, etc. The problem I see with this is that we need some reliable way of detecting it other than sending Howard up as a field strength meter. The AMA has generally attempted to monitor weather radar and give a warning, but it obviously did not work this time, for whatever reason.

  At the very least we should have some accepted method of taking pilot reports, and allowing "wave offs" with no penalty if the situation is serious enough. The problem with that is that you have to somehow be able to deal with the possibility of tactical wave-offs, or evaluating the seriousness between "cat fur and amber" static and dangerous charge buildup and lightning.

    It almost suggests we need a field strength meter at the site, which might be OK for the NATs, but what about the rest of the time?

     I am open to suggestions, I am not sure whether this needs to be a rule somewhere, or just have some guidelines, or what, but we can;t just keep taking our chances and hoping no one gets killed.

    Brett


*note that this can be a problem even if you don't touch power lines, or other sources directly. Corona discharge from high-tension lines can easily cause large voltage gradients that you can pick up across 70 feet of line. The Napa site is directly across the street from a 100 KW FM transmitter with 4 large antennas, and you have to ground your handle or you will get zapped over and over again.

Offline frank williams

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 886
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2022, 07:24:06 AM »
Brett
I use one of these at our contests.  You can get much more expensive ones, but this is quite reasonable and does give you a measurable piece of data.
Frank

https://dallasdiscounts.weebly.com/store/p255/_AcuRite-02020-Lightning-Detector-Weather-Device-Portable-Storm-Detector-Alarm_.html

You can get more expensive ones also.
https://skyscanusa.com/product/storm-pro-2-lightning-detector/


Online Peter Germann

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 403
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2022, 07:26:10 AM »
FAI Sporting Code Vol F2 ControlLine 2022,
Class F2B - CL Aerobatics
Page 15:

4.2.5    Contest Weather
a)   In the case of turbulence preventing the safe conduct of flight, the Head Judge must interrupt the contest until safe flying is again possible.
b)   For safety reasons any competitor whose contest flight is in progress during local electrical storm activity (thunder and/or lightning) shall be offered a re-flight. No contest flight shall be started when an electrical storm appears to be imminent, and if such conditions do occur the F2B Contest Director and Head Judge shall agree a suitable delay to the contest timetable and shall inform all contestants and contest officials as soon as is practicable.


Peter Germann

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7527
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2022, 09:17:32 AM »
Brett
I use one of these at our contests.  You can get much more expensive ones, but this is quite reasonable and does give you a measurable piece of data.
Frank

https://dallasdiscounts.weebly.com/store/p255/_AcuRite-02020-Lightning-Detector-Weather-Device-Portable-Storm-Detector-Alarm_.html

You can get more expensive ones also.
https://skyscanusa.com/product/storm-pro-2-lightning-detector/

   Something like these devices should be on site the same as the calculators for scoring, and some one put in charge of monitoring it. If it sounds an alert, flying stops, no human decision to be made, let the machine dictate it.. I have had my share of getting zapped and even a small one is no fun. As it has already been pointed out, it's worse leading up to a storm. Most reaction is to get one more flight in "before it gets bad!" If you are noticing signs, it's already bad enough! Get the best detector that there is out there and have it present when ever there are any kinds of clouds in the sky.
    Type at  you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline john e. holliday

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22991
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2022, 11:46:43 AM »
If you have an AM radio just turn it on and listen. I remember at Pawnee Rock KS contest when JJ was getting ready for a combat match.  His opponent was having staring problems.  I noticed JJ was not happy and crying.  I yelled for every body to hold up so I could go see what was wrong.  When I got to him he is screaming it hurts.  I grabbed the handle and toldd JJ to sit down.  Then told every body watch out as I decked the plane.   Beautiful day but way off on the horizon we could see storm clouds rising.  Contest was called. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12907
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2022, 01:33:47 PM »
... apparently no one really paid attention to what Howard told them and maybe thought he just needed some grounding. ...

You know, people really shouldn't take Howard's goofing around as an indication that he's not a well-grounded person.

I'm wondering if there's a cheap field mill that you could use, and if that would be better or worse than John Holliday's suggestion of an AM radio, or the gizmo that Frank Williams suggested.  The biggest part is just asking officials to pay attention.

The AMA general rules ("Competition Regulations: GENERAL INFORMATION ALL CATEGORIES") does touch on lighting, but other than saying "it's especially an issue, pay attention" it doesn't say much else.  I'm wondering, since control line is a special case where you've gone and attached yourself to a 7-story tall lightning rod, if the best place to put some additional mention of this wouldn't be in the Control Line General rules.

From the General Rules:

Quote
The cancellation of an event while it is in operation requires careful consideration.
Typically, such cancellation is weather-related. Conditions to be considered for the
cancellation of an event due to weather or natural causes include, but are not limited to:

Wind - strong and sustained. While wind speeds of 40 mph have been arbitrarily listed as
a maximum, it should be noted that the type of models being flown dictate whether the
event can be flown safely. Exceptionally strong gusts and wind direction in relation to the
field layout are important considerations.

Rain - heavy, steady. The possibility of hail, tornado, and hurricane activity is of special
concern.

Other - lightning, flood, earthquake, fog, extreme temperature, and air conditions, other
natural causes. Lightning presents a significant danger. While it is unlikely that complete
event cancellation due to lightning will be required, every effort should be made to
suspend flying and allow participants to seek shelter in its presence.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline MikeyPratt

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2022, 02:02:26 PM »
Hi. Brett,
Having Been hit while flying a two Nat’s once in Lincoln and another at Ohio it wasn’t fun, everyone looked at me like I was trying to get another flight (yes I was).  I was hit in the Overhead’s and Reverse Wingover but I can’t tell you if it was static built up or what, but it got my attention that’s for sure.  I yelled at the judges that I was being hit, they didn’t say a word so I kept flying the pattern and was hit again at the top of the four-leaf.  After the flight I talked to them, they said there were no rules in place for that (sorry Charlie but your done).   There was a least two others that were hit also also, but little to no attention was paid.

So by all means we need to do something!

Mikey Pratt

« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 02:27:05 PM by MikeyPratt »

Offline Jack Pitcher

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 60
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2022, 02:32:16 PM »
The Weather Bug app for phone & iPad has a Spark Lightning tab that opens to a Lightning Map aerial view of 100 miles or so around present location. Location of lightning strikes appear graphically with distance to closest strike. It appears to be pretty close to real time information. It also sends text notifications when strikes are occurring nearby with distance & time of the strike. It’s quite active when storms are nearby and closely correlates with what I’m seeing outside. Perhaps another option.

Jack
Jack Pitcher
Vortex Stunt Team
AMA 65309

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14501
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2022, 04:26:43 PM »
FAI Sporting Code Vol F2 ControlLine 2022,
Class F2B - CL Aerobatics
Page 15:

4.2.5    Contest Weather
a)   In the case of turbulence preventing the safe conduct of flight, the Head Judge must interrupt the contest until safe flying is again possible.
b)   For safety reasons any competitor whose contest flight is in progress during local electrical storm activity (thunder and/or lightning) shall be offered a re-flight. No contest flight shall be started when an electrical storm appears to be imminent, and if such conditions do occur the F2B Contest Director and Head Judge shall agree a suitable delay to the contest timetable and shall inform all contestants and contest officials as soon as is practicable.

  Thank you Peter, that is pretty helpful and more-or-less what we do, although I am not sure it is written down anywhere (and ir probably should be, I need to go through the "General" section of the AMA Rulebook). 


   What appears to be missing for the AMA  is any sort of definition or standard of what constitutes a hazard VS normal static buildup, or anything other than judgement to make the decision. In the context where this topic came up (as a side issue to another discussion), Howard mentioned that he pointed out the problem but it was dismissed or we/they didn't understand the scope of the issue. That seems to have been a pretty disturbing mistake.

    Brett

Offline Reptoid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 461
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2022, 01:14:40 AM »
Direct copy from AMA 2022-2023 rulebook CL General page 4

The cancellation of an event while it is in operation requires careful consideration.
Typically, such cancellation is weather-related. Conditions to be considered for the
cancellation of an event due to weather or natural causes include, but are not limited to:
Wind - strong and sustained. While wind speeds of 40 mph have been arbitrarily listed as
a maximum, it should be noted that the type of models being flown dictate whether the
event can be flown safely. Exceptionally strong gusts and wind direction in relation to the
field layout are important considerations.
Rain - heavy, steady. The possibility of hail, tornado, and hurricane activity is of special
concern.
Other - lightning, flood, earthquake, fog, extreme temperature, and air conditions, other
natural causes. Lightning presents a significant danger. While it is unlikely that complete
event cancellation due to lightning will be required, every effort should be made to
suspend flying and allow participants to seek shelter in its presence.
The responsibility for the cancellation of an event rests with the Contest Director. If the
CD feels the event cannot be flown safely he may cancel it. Mere discomfort or marginal
conditions do not constitute reasons for cancellation. Consideration should be given
concerning risk to equipment and, in particular, the safety of the participants and
spectators. The CD may seek guidance through the use of a contestant vote. Resanctioning of an event for weather-related conditions or natural causes will only be done
if the conditions meet the basic criteria outlined.
Delay of Event: An event may be delayed, either initially or during the period of normal
operation, at the CD’s discretion. Typically, delays will be caused by natural or weatherrelated problems; however, other concerns of an emergency nature may be considered
grounds for delaying the event. When delays occur due to unfavorable weather
conditions, it is understood that flying will resume when conditions improve to the level
present prior to the delay.
The CD is responsible for informing the participants present at the event, at regular
intervals, as to the reasons for the delay and the possible time for resumption. In the case
of competitive events, a delayed event will not be resumed if it is determined that time
constraints will prevent the completion of adequate rounds of flying to determine a
winner.
Regards,
       Don
       AMA # 3882

Offline john e. holliday

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22991
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2022, 10:00:01 AM »
Yes it is up to the contest directer and participants on if to shut down or delay a contest.  I know it not model related but at the local race track they told every body to seek shelter as there was an electrical storm on its way.  The infield was cleared and fans headed for their cars.   Didn't more than get in my car when bolt of lightning hit just west of the track.  Then the heavy rains with thunder.  The rains only lasted a couple of minutes bur I turned on my radio to the local AM station and had nothing but static.  after about 30 minutes it cleared up and sunshine.  The track did lose power for a while.   But once the track was packed racing continued.  Didn't know sprint cars could get the track in shape so fast.  I felt for those in the turns and close to the track as mud was going every where. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Steve Fitton

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2278
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2022, 04:11:19 PM »
Thank God somebody with sufficient gravitas is speaking up about this problem.  I remember being terrified on top 20 a few years ago as we kept flying and the thunder and dark clouds kept getting closer.  I don't think it was stopped till the rain actually hit, which made ROs flight on solids pretty fun as I recall.  I barely got my stuff in the car before a big fat bolt struck over by the speed circles.
I thought that AMA was watching lightning strike info as of last year, but I guess that is not the case.  Modelers would be better served if an AMA employee was monitoring the weather from a computer vs riding around in a golf cart.
Steve

Offline Ara Dedekian

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 504
  • Ara Dedekian
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2022, 06:52:36 PM »

 ...you've gone and attached yourself to a 7-story tall lightning rod,...



     I did a continuity check on a length of Spectra line with my Radio Shack multimeter. The circuit remained open.

     Ara

Offline Dennis Adamisin

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4403
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2022, 07:02:26 PM »
Seems timely.  This morning my granddaughters soccer game was stopped today due to a visible lightning strike some miles away!

Its one thing to suspend a contest because of nearby lightning, however, I used to get zapped routinely just flying in the evening at Rouge Park with no inclement weather in sight. Probably had something to do with cooling temperatures, rise in relative humidity & who knows what else.  Learned later that simple things like continuous metal contact would deal with it. If we are contemplating suspending or ending a contest because of static conditions - short of a lightning strike - then we need an accurate repeatable method of monitoring conditions that cause high static build-up.

Would the lightning detectors handle that task or are they only good at monitoring lightning?


Off to the L-Pad first thing in the morning to CD the FCM meet.  Forecast is scattered thunderstorms all day...



Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14501
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2022, 07:16:08 PM »
     I did a continuity check on a length of Spectra line with my Radio Shack multimeter. The circuit remained open.

     Ara

Lightning jumps 5+ miles through air, don’t count on Spectra saving you.

    Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12907
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2022, 10:34:13 PM »
     I did a continuity check on a length of Spectra line with my Radio Shack multimeter. The circuit remained open.

     Ara

That's actually an interesting science question -- is the spectra line more or less conductive than air?  And is it still less conductive than air if it's wet?

Even if it look just like air to the lightning, do you think it's wise to stand in the middle of a big bare spot shaking your fist at the thunder gods? (OK, you'll be doing the overhead 8.  But the thunder gods will think you're shaking your fist at them).
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline kevin king

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1688
.
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2022, 11:03:48 PM »
 ...

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14501
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2022, 11:42:49 PM »
That's actually an interesting science question -- is the spectra line more or less conductive than air?  And is it still less conductive than air if it's wet?

Even if it look just like air to the lightning, do you think it's wise to stand in the middle of a big bare spot shaking your fist at the thunder gods? (OK, you'll be doing the overhead 8.  But the thunder gods will think you're shaking your fist at them).

Or wood or dry desert sand.

The problem seems to be how to distinguish harmless static buildup from induced current from distant lightning. In the specific case, no one fully grasped the relevance of Howard getting shocked because there was no visible lightning around nor audible thunder.

To first approximation we could just take any observation from the pilots as reason to stop, but if you do, how do you then decide to start back up? If you thought it dangerous earlier, you can’t just send someone else up later just as an experiment. “Oh, he got electrocuted, guess we should have waited longer. Please give our thanks to the next of kin”.

     Brett


Online katana

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 185
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2022, 09:13:48 AM »
     I did a continuity check on a length of Spectra line with my Radio Shack multimeter. The circuit remained open.

Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin that experimented with Kites using string in thunder storms? And I seem to remember Myth Busters checked out the validity of string being a grounding path and proved it out to be true. Admittedly a couple of hundred Kv's and wet Spectra likely to work like fuse wire but if a bolt is travelling in your direction - hit the dirt fast!

Offline john e. holliday

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22991
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2022, 05:32:35 PM »
No body can move that fast. LL~ LL~
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline GallopingGhostler

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 568
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2022, 06:08:32 AM »
A lightning bolt is something like 450,000 Volts. When on motorcycle and it is raining, unless forced to, if a thunderstorm, I find a place to duck and hide (restaurant, convenience store, etc.) and wait it out. That 6" insulator called a motorcycle tire isn't going to do much insulating with that much Voltage. (Motorcyclists have been killed by lightning. Here in New Mexico, I have ridden a couple hours in rain, as there is no place to duck on some rural parts.)

I'd be less concerned about the conductive soiling of Spectra lines and simply sit out a thunderstorm. (At my age, I have enough problems as it is keeping my pants unsoiled.  LL~ )

Online katana

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 185
Re: Dealing with electrical shocks
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2022, 07:14:09 AM »
No body can move that fast. LL~ LL~

I know  ;) - its a bit like shouting 'duck' when you hear a gun shot - too late  :X

Tags: