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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bootlegger on September 16, 2010, 09:51:54 AM
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Mornin' guy's, what are y'all usin to terminate the cable ends on your handles?
Thanks a lot
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Mornin' guy's, what are y'all usin to terminate the cable ends on your handles?
Thanks a lot
I wrap them with 24 gauge copper wire.
"Billy G" D>K
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What Billy G said..
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Mornin' guy's, what are y'all usin to terminate the cable ends on your handles?
Thanks a lot
The kit I bought came with nicopress sleeves.
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What tool do you use to crimp lines and where do you get it? I've heard that wire cutters are not to be used! LL~ H^^
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Never use wirecuttes to crimp anything. That will lead to an early failure.
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Try some of the local tool suppliers for full scale planes or even electrical tool shop. Western Electric did a lot of swagging on cables in the telephone offices. H^^
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Carl Shoup, PAMPA Dist IX VP, makes a very nice crimper from a pair of needlenose pliers. Instructions with it should prevent anyone who can read from making a bad crimp, given the care and patience that are stressed parts of the process.
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If you want to use a type of pliers, look around until you find the needle nose type that have round jaws instead of the normal flat sided ones. Using them you can pretty much squeeze as hard as you want and not worry about damaging the wire.
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Found it
Supplier of what I have been using.
http://www.mbsmodelsupply.com/index.php
The Tool will do various sizes of tubing and MBS has the right size pre cut tubing for 3 wire loops and other such. Good stuff. Best I have ever seen.
Look like same tool was used by Sullivan/Pylon although the tubing they use looks to be to large for line size.
Hot Rock handle crimp is similar but very smashed flat.
Example of tool and crimp in pic.(enlarge)
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This is from an old fisherman. My biggest fish is a 226 yellow fin tuna. Now for the airplane corollary. When fishing any big fish, we will often use wire (like in a model airplane handle) and we use crimps. FISHING CRIMPS!!!!. They are thick, heavy and will not give out. The crimp should be just big enough in diameter that the wire can pass through 3 times. Through the crimp to a loop, and the tag end back through. That is now two passes through the crimp. Then, take the tag end, loop it around and back to the front of the crimp and pass it through the crimp in the same direction as the second pass exited. I know this is hard to explain without drawings so let me try one more time.
Take a wire and slip on a crimp. Now take the "tag" end and pass it back through the crimp through the same end that the wire had exited the crimp. You should now have a crimp with a wire going in, forming a loop and passing back into the crimp. Now take that tag end and go back to the end you just "passed" through and pass through it again, in the same direction as the second pass. That actually forms a loop around the crimp. (I'm so confused!) Then crimp the "crimp" with a regular crimp tool. You do not need a swager. The swager "squeezes" the wire rather than crimping. The swager is used typically in applications where a crimp would weaken the connection. In fishing, that would be monofiliment, not wire.
I know it may seem that flying is a long way from fishing but please believe me, using wire and crimps on very large fish absolutely will demonstrate the amount of strength that connection will endure. I love flying and can say without hesitation, the fishing crimps, correctly applied, will absolutely hold our airplanes safely and securely.
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I have Mel Shuette's little swager and another that I bought from the local fishing supply.
I think it important to use pliers that swage most of the length of the little sleeves rather than just crimp.
Also, I bought the swaging pliers from MBS after I bought the tool from the fishing shop because I was unhappy with the way the bigger swager compressed the sleeves required with .012" lines.
I have every confidence in both but the bigger tool, while easier to use, is now only used for lead outs. One day, when I have the time, I might look at grinding another pair of grooves in it.
Cheers, Geoff
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Ive used fishing crimps for years. I've never had a line break or come loose in all my flying years. As has been pointed out, done correctly crimps are safe and secure.
Dennis
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y1 Thanks Guy's, to the fellow's that are wrapping the end's, do you wrap like AMA say's to wrap line's and lead out's, wrap, then fold back and wrap again?
Again thanks for the suggestions... #^
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They cost $1.24, plus tax.
Go to Home Depot (Tony's) and buy a pack of 1/16" swages. Keep the receipt. Go home and get your handle ready to swage.
Return to Home Depot (receipt & empty card in hand) and use the swaging tool that's laying under the cable reels in the chain and cordage area. It looks like a BIG bolt cutter, but has dies to make the swages. You might could buy one for $50, but I use theirs. That's what it's there for.
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More bad advice from Paul. I used it, and it WAS a bolt cutter.
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Here's what I like. Cable is 1/16" galvanized braided steel from the local Home Depot. Ends are simple loops wrapped with 3/4" of 24 ga. copper wire and soaked with solder. Since they're soldered, no need to double back with this thick cable.
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More bad advice from Paul. I used it, and it WAS a bolt cutter.
You can't do it on April Fool's Day.
Your JCT buddies are still laughing.
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Whats the difference between crimp and swage?
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I swage all my leadouts and have never had a problem.
I bought a swaging tool and special cutter from SAVA ($$$$$$$) as shown in the first picture.
The second picture shows the most common methods of dressing leadouts.
Photo "A" is the kind of swage you get with the pictured tool. It not only works well but looks nice and neat.
Photo "B" is the common crimp.
Photo "C" shows the classic wire wrapping/non-solder method.
I wrote a very detailed article on this topic in CL World.
Bob Z.
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Essentially the difference in a crimp and a sewage is this. A crimp places some kind of "deep" dimple or groove into the item being crimped so that the dimple penetrates the "space" occupied by the wires and "pins" them together and/or to the interior of the crimp material (crimp material generally being a hollow aluminum or copper sleeve that wires are passed through). The sewage is much like grabbing a tube of tooth paste in the middle with your fist and squeezing. The sewage "smoothly constricts" the crimp material, generally in the middle so as not to produce any sharp edges where the wire/monofiliment, enters and/or exits the crimp material. Thus, the crimp kind of "pins" the wires in the sleeve while the sewage "squeezes" the wires in the sleeve.
By the way, I use fishing crimps because they are generally thicker walled and heavier duty than the thin walled copper sleeves we typically get in our model building stuff. Fishing crimps come in all diameters so you need to get crimps that allow three passes of the wire through the opening but not much larger.
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Bob, I found the SAVA website and the products you showed, C07 cutter and T185 crimp tool. Apparently, you must order through a regional rep. Can you give an idea of the cost? Thanks.
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Hi, Dick - I've had mine for over 30 years and I obtained them through Xerox when I worked there. My purchasing agent ordered them.
Best thing to do is contact SAVA for a local rep in your area. If you know someone with a business, that would probably help as they may not sell to private individuals.
As I recall, they were a bit pricey but the quality is most impressive. I believe the cutters are made in Switzerland.
Bob Z.
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would this one work?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/locoloc.php
Not cheap.....
The v grouve cutters are nice, but you can get them at any good bicycle shop that carries park tools.
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=14&item=CN-10#
About $30
Try this place looks like there should be something that works
http://www.anglerscenter.com/AC_tools_crimping.htm
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Robert
Thanks for the best description so far. I am still not 100% sorted in my mind on what to call which.
I made a drawing( not a very good one) showing on the bottom what I used to do with cutting pliers with Zero failures, although plenty of ass chewing from Dad.
At the top of the drawing is what I do now with the tool and Steel pre cut tubing from MBS.
Is this a Swage?
What ever it is I like it as the wire/cable is not crushed like it is with the 'cutting plier crimps'
this (on top) holds the cable along it length.
MBS http://www.mbsmodelsupply.com/Catalog.pdf
1000 ft .015 bulk line. $29.95
20 eyelets. $2.00
Nickle plated tube the right size for lines. $1.50
Swage or crimp tool The one in pic above)$9.00
For $50.00 I'm set for along time and never have to leave home. :)!
Also He has all line sizes and tubes in stranded and solid, Handles , thongs ,reels and line reel clips, bellcranks, props, Leadouts, and on and on.
Good guy to work with and I don't even know him except for making the above order.
I think he is a combat and stunt flier.
SO AM I SWAGING NOW OR STILL CRIMPING??? ??? ??? ???
In real life the loop for 3rd pass is pulled tighter.
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Those are both crimps. A swage would look like a tube that was compressed symmetrically around the circumference, in between the two ends of the hollow tube. Kind of like a typical looking dog bone. With a swage, the "compression" is in between the two ends of the "tube" and is very smooth so it produces not sharp or dramatic "intrusions" into the hollow center where your line resides. I'll try to take a picture of a swage and post it later today, providing of course the camera shows it well enough.
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Michael - look at my previous post from September 17.
Illustration "A" is definitely a swage.
Bob Z.
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I talked with Bob Z. 4 years ago. I bought the SAVA tool ($130.00 approx.) and never looked back. My ships have all passed the pull tests without a hitch. I have also done a few leadouts for others who couldn't afford the tool. If someone needs help, I bring it to the field. Takes maybe 5 minutes or less. It is important to use the correct size sleeves so they will grab the cable properly. It is also important to deburr the Inside diameter of the sleeve at both ends. I use a small countersink (per Bob Z.) and Thank you Bob. One of the best investments I've made in modeling. On ships with a 46 or larger engine, I put 2 sleeves.
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Following are pictures of some "compression sleeves" that are standard if long range fishing. The top sleeve has been crimped, as I know it to be, and the bottom has been swaged, as I know it to be. The middle is, of course, unaltered. Note that the bottom sleeve is compressed along most of its body with the exception of a small uncompressed area at each end of the sleeve.
Bob, my terminology, and identification, of crimp and swage comes specifically from long range fishing and that is definitely their terms and identification. I really don't have any appreciable background in other areas that might deal with crimping and swaging in a different way so perhaps there are other differing definitions.
Mike
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Robert, Mike, Greg Thanks! H^^ H^^ H^^
My brain finally see what my eyeballs have been looking at. n~
David
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Bob, looking at your post of Sept 17 and my post just now, we are in agreement as to the swage. Your top compression sleeve is swaged, my bottom compression sleeve is swaged. The hand drawing from Mr. Roland shows two methods. His illustration B is essentially the same as your illustration B. Where we disagree is the method in his illustration A. In my pictures, I used a standard crimping tool on the top compression sleeve. It produced the same results as his illustration A shows. I believe Mr. Roland's illustrations show two different crimping methods.
Mike
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Mike
That's what I see now. I'm a crimper!
This is David, My Dad is Mr Roland LL~ He prefers Bill but not "Mr. Bill" LL~ LL~
Thanks guys
David
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I guess if he does not like Mr. Bill, you probably don't go by Mr. David. Coincidentally, I am not Mr. Mike...just plane (or plain) Mike.
Tx.