Crashworthy Craft?

[Dave Moritz]

As a dedicated builder & sometime flier, I've so far been content with constructing and flying easy-going C/L models. Recently though, I had a hankerin' to up my flying game a bit and try some aggressive moves in the flight circle. That didn't end well. A pretty model that I'd stick-built from plans and finished with silkspan was a total loss (though the engine survived). Now I'm back to flying with another nice model but am hesitant to take risks.

What I'd like to do is build (or buy ARF) something that can be repaired at the field. Probably foam wing and purely functional design. For power, I've got an Enya .15 and a K&B .20, both very good runners but the K&B is heavy. Would like to use 52' lines.

I've read elsewhere that a simple, crashworthy plane for learning need be nothing more than a plank wing, stick fuselage and equally simple empenage, so long as it's balanced & proportioned rather correctly. As for ARF, not sure if anything is available. Apparently Phil Cartier's Corehouse offers or did offer models that would fill the bill, but couldn't find anything to match my engines. Finally, I've got a SIG Skyray kit and OS 25LA waiting in the wings to be built. However before subjecting that to possible sacrifice, I'd like to be able to do loops, decent wingovers and inverted with a measure of confidence.

So am looking or suggestions here. I've got foam core, aluminum square tubing, fiberglass, epoxy glue, thin ply, balsa pieces and all the correct hardware for building a plank model. Alternatively, I could come up with the scratch to buy a suitably rugged ARF if such could be found. Finally, I could go ahead with a not-too-fastidious Skyray build and let it and the OS 25 suffer the consequences.

Fire away, good gents, as I surely could use whatever wisdom you might offer. Thanks!

Dave Mo....

PS: No club in the area to help me through this phase of the hobby.

[Dan Berry]

It sounds like you want a Gotcha Streak from Corehouse.

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello The Gotcha Streak sounds good and a bigger 35 can be had cheap but there are also many 15 size planes that would work well with your Enya 15 or K&B 20 . I used a combat wing (5th Revolution) with a fuselage for my wife to learn aerobatics. Same model then helped my then my sons too.
A good example of this is the Spitfire by Dave Cowburn see:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=9565
It can be built with a foam or built up wing and is designed for combat so has the rugged qualities you seek!

Regards Gerald 

[Brett Buck]

My opinion is that it's easier to repair simple built-up models than most foam-based models. As long as you have Hot Stuff and packing tape.

   My suggestion on how to proceed is pretty well documented. You want a simple model that you can repair, and provides adequate performance. Most trainers that use vintage engines are absolutely terrible. I have used a balsa clone of a SIG Skyray 35 for many years now - nominally the same airplane, for about 25 years. I flew it with several vintage engines and while I could get it through complete stunt patterns, it took a lot of effort and, not to be immodest, I was pretty good at model airplanes long before I built the airplane. It could be done but the skill level required was very high. I replaced the engine with a modern engine, and it was like gravity was turned off, it was so much better. The airplane is fully capable of winning any Advanced contest in the right hands, and I think my high score with it is up around 560 points.

   The other thing was that the airplane started off with the stock kit parts - i.e. lots and lots of lite ply, which is both heavy and relatively weak, and also has no "give" to it. The first time it crashed, almost every rib in the airplane broke, and there was no fixing it. I rebuilt the airplane with balsa parts, and it has since crashed at least 40 times, and most of those resulted in no more than a damaged prop. The light wing made it perform *slightly* better, but it was vastly more robust, and most of those crashes resulted in no damage other than the prop. I had to rebuild it a second time, because the Monokote had turned to glass in 25 years in the warm California sun, and just crumbled in a light pancake. Any time it was damaged, I just glued it back together, right at the field, and flew it again.

    My suggestion is a medium-sized profile airplane like the Skyray 35, Flite Streak, Medic, or similar built from normal balsa with normal techniques. Elevator-only is preferred, because it's easier to trim, and getting it trimmed (particularly without any help) is critically important. Cover the wings and tail with Monokote/Ultrakote. Finish the fuselage with epoxy. Do a neat job, but don't go crazy - because you really want to build 2-3 of them at a time, all the same.

   Power the airplane with a *stock* OS20FP ABC or 25LA. When I say stock, that means *all the parts that came with the engine*, *exactly the way it came from the factory*. If you can only find a 20FP or 25LA RC engines, that is OK, get the stock CL venturi and stock needle valve/spraybar assembly from Tower. You probably only need two engines, but set up all the airplanes to be able to switch them easily from a broken airplane to a OK airplane.  Use a *stock* APC 9-4 propellor, and get a lot of them. Make up a couple of sets of .015x60 lines.

  Build and set up the airplanes and engines, and *take them all to the field*. Pick one, start flying it. Don't hold back, push yourself to learn the maneuvers. If you crash, DO NOT pack it in for the day and go home. Save all the peices, put them in a bag or box and put it in the car. Get the next airplane, check your lines, or replace them, and just keep going. Continue until you are out of time, or out of airplanes. Take everything home, and fix them before next session. If you have a problem with the airplane, say it just won't run, put it away, get another one, and keep going. If you run out of airplanes before run out of time, then, take a box with repair parts (like Hot Stuff, 1/64 ply, packing tape or FAS-CAL, saw/knife/sandpaper, etc) and fix the airplane with the least damage. With thin Hot Stuff, you can just push a lot of breaks back together, have all the fibers merge in a perfect splice, and one drop of glue will fix it almost to the point you can't see the break.

   The key is to *just keep going*. The tendency I see over and over is that beginners/novices encounter one problem, then just give up, and try to fix it for next weekend. That's the worst thing you could possibly do, because it both wastes your time, and also, makes you so concerned with crashing and maybe losing another week, that you don't try hard enough.

    Brett

     

[Randy Cuberly]

Listen to Brett!  He's a National Champion and a very smart guy.  If you really want to be successful this is the way to do it!  I personally would recommend The OS LA25 simply because they are more available than the FP20 but either is a sure bet for reliability and performance!

Randy Cuberly

[Norm Furutani]

The local Los Angeles CL guys talked me into flying controlline after many years of FF and RC glider. Did fly CL as a kid but never got past loops and lazy eights. They said they had a plane ready for me and so why not? Well the plane was a used RTF Ukrainian (Mezlik/Yuvenko) fast combat plane with an old Enya 35. I said they were nuts! Anyway, they got me on the handle, short tank with a streamer to slow it down, I was flying! It felt good, so longer motor runs, confidence increased, got jiggy and stuck it in the ground. The guys hosed it off and I was in the air again!

Bottom line- the RTF combat planes are really tough, relatively cheap and fly great! You do need to hook up with a local combat guy to source the plane and accessories.

Norm, who can finally fly upside down!

[Tim Wescott]

My opinion is that it's easier to repair simple built-up models than most foam-based models. As long as you have Hot Stuff and packing tape.

I've been keeping my wife in airplanes based on Phil Cartier's foam wings, and I got myself going with a Skyray and a Flight Streak.  In my experience, the Phil wing plus Gorilla Glue makes it easier -- by the time you biff a Phil-winged plane hard enough to break the wings off, you've crashed hard enough to have a Skyray in itty bitty pieces, so you may as well pull the second plane out and fly that anyway.

Dave: either take Brett's advise and build up a bunch of Skyray airframes to run with your 25LA, or build multiple planes with wing cores from Phil.  In either case, proceed to go to town with them.  His suggestion about showing up at the field with multiple planes does work -- it's what I did when I could, and when I couldn't I at least had one at the field and one halfway repaired in the shop.

[Tim Wescott]

Note that his Gotcha Streak wings, without extensions, ought to do well with a 25LA.  In fact, it's the motor Phil recommends for the Streak III.

[Joe Ed Pederson]

What kind of filter do you use to keep dirt from going down the venturi in a crash? 


Joe Ed Pederson

[Ken Culbertson]

What kind of filter do you use to keep dirt from going down the venturi in a crash? 


Joe Ed Pederson

Pantyhose

[Joe Ed Pederson]

Ken,

Do you stretch the pantyhose over the top of the venture and keep it in place with a twist wire/rubber band or do you stuff the panty hose down the throat of the venturi?

[Jim Kraft]

Gee, I thought this thread was about me and you just spelled my name wrong. My wife has called me crash Kraft ever since we got married in 1959. I have the tee shirt.

I use small "O" rings or small plastic ties to hold the panty hose on to the venture. Cut the pantyhose large enough to go down the sides so that you have plenty to tie to. You can always trim it a little if you want to be neat after you tie it.

[Ken Culbertson]

Gee, I thought this thread was about me and you just spelled my name wrong. My wife has called me crash Kraft ever since we got married in 1959. I have the tee shirt.

I use small "O" rings or small plastic ties to hold the panty hose on to the venture. Cut the pantyhose large enough to go down the sides so that you have plenty to tie to. You can always trim it a little if you want to be neat after you tie it.

I have found it is better to ask your wife for an old pair than to have her ask where they came from!

Ken

[Air Ministry .]

A cross between This 'n' That , scaled to suit . 150% is 56 in 200 % is 72 inch .

As the combat wings can go in unscathed at the Ton , maybe on soft ground .
Youre in for a start . Been meaning to do one myself , amougst other things .





Std size'd be eligibal for vintage/ classic Combat , here in Aus. & in G.B.

[Air Ministry .]

Just a standard F2? Combat Wing , with the .25 , on say a 9x4 or 10x4 prop , on maybe 60 foot lines , would get you through the schedule no worries .

Theyre availaBLE READY TO GO FOR A REASONABLE PRICE . oops . Grab a few and chuck a fuselage on one or two .
Or set up a foam cutter for leading edges. Nichrome wire & a reaostadt . Dunno if a Glow field box variometer'd work ?



tons of drawings on google pictures . tho this is a ' std. ' that works good for stunt, a notch nose heavy , on longer lines .

theyre made of pine  ( if youve got a bench saw ) & foam , bound with thread . Balsa Tips & ribs . Tough as old nails  .
The coverings the stuff for library books etc , from the stationers . Abitious types buy a 100 metre roll . Its cheap . And Tough .
Heat gun to shrink , iron to seal . Almost un rippable .

[Brett Buck]

Just a standard F2? Combat Wing , with the .25 , on say a 9x4 or 10x4 prop , on maybe 60 foot lines , would get you through the schedule no worries .

   That will certainly fly OK, but give no experience in building and repairing, and almost no applicable lessons or experience in trimming a conventional stunt plane.

    Brett

[Air Ministry .]

They do trim them a bit . AND they get plenty of practise repairing them . Opps . 

 

[Brett Buck]

They do trim them a bit . AND they get plenty of practise repairing them . Opps . 

 

  AY YI YI! Stunt and RTF combat planes from the Iron Curtain, are not really the same path forward.

     Brett

[Norm Furutani]

Thought this thread was about getting some air time? Meanwhile one could be building that Twister/Banshee or learning to fly inverted so the first flight on that plane you spent hours/days building isn’t trashed on its first flight?

Norm

[Air Ministry .]

Er , READING THE INITIAL POST .  .

" Ab Initio "  TRAINING . . .











And JUST AS WELL , Too . 



SCALEING these to say 36 span , or 48 in . Proportionately . Would get that for the .25 . Use a 9 x 4 or 10 x 4 , or 3 , prop . to keep it slow .

The In Line Flat Underside bit , all lined up , less bits to glue back together after a wipe out though . Dont Forget the TIP WEIGHT .

' WE " had just about given up . Given up last weekend of the school holidays walking down the reserve to break it again , Baby Bee in it .
So cut the hideous string  lines down from 25 Ft to 15 ft, to fly on a vacant lot . And Hey Presto .

It ripped around Lines Tight and FLEW . Rather than doing a slow roll to the left , as it went up and in , toward the pilot / budding aviator .
Not so budding by that stage, though plenty of repairs had been required . We wont mention the Kiel Kraft rubber model prop on it .
Or the Blade Shedding .
OTHER THAN TO SAY , keep your face OUT OF THE PROP , and shed blades go OUTWARD - Peripherally & Fwd . a bit .

That Lesson was learnt EARLY , Kepping your fingers out is harder . Pig Skin Gloves from building suplies arnt a bad idea .

Prop on backwards , rear face forward , was an old ' slow it down ' initially , trick . Still applicable .

=======================================================================================

A few coats of dope ( Auto Lacquer o.k. ? ) sanded , then TISSUE doped / lacquerd on , will make it MULTIPLY STONGER .

These swine flying real slow putt around Nose Up , so giving you delicate control sensitivity , or itll sag into the deck .

Another lesson of early UNDERPOWERED trash .

Also strapping a 100 Mill / 3 Oz squeeze bottle , srtrapped on the outer wing , would have a Moelair Gnat up for most of ONE HOUR .
The young turkeys in Our Club at Torbay nearly all learnt to fly in two or three tankfulls one sunday afternoon , with the Mills . 75 Gnat.

Again , . . . the first 20 minutes were a balance , thrust / drag / weight ,till fuel burnt off , requiring delicate control , to much up & it'd hover .

[Ken Culbertson]

They do trim them a bit . AND they get plenty of practise repairing them . Opps . 

 

Like every kid into CL when I was growing up we all flew combat and stunt and yes I have flown the pattern with a combat plane but I would have never thought of learning to do it on one.  So much of stunt is muscle memory and timing.  Get something that flies roughly the same lap times, turns about the same and is subject to the same problems in wind that the PA ships are but doesn't ruin your year if you crash it...and you will crash it.

Ken

[Air Ministry .]

The GNAT was pretty much a PHANTOM MITE , the 1948 Phantom Here ;



Mite :







Were all the rage for RACING , internationally , turn of the century .

G Pics gets link for downloads .

Scale as per Sportsman . Youll get more pieces per crash . with one of these .

Then you want advanced trainer . Read ' Combat Wing ' . 

Simpler the simpler to repair , maybe. With BALSA Anyway . FOAM dosnt generally repair well .

[Brett Buck]

Building these "roundy-round" airplanes is not a great idea, you outgrow them in about 3 flights, learn nothing about flying, and then what? Hangs on the wall until you die.

    Of course, anyone can build anything they want, I have my suggestions after watching and helping people (and myself) make mistakes and mis-steps for 50-ish year.  We have had WAM "Grand Champions" who couldn't do anything but 45 different variations on flying level, so what do I know?

     Brett

     

[Dave Moritz]

The OP Here:

Wow, but is this a fascinating discussion! Each time I get my mind around a response, something new, different and equally valid comes in and derails my plans. Gotta love it, though!!

Many thanks to each of you for experiences and thoughts. I'll be watching this and get back with my plan!

Dave Mo...

[Ken Culbertson]

The OP Here:

Wow, but is this a fascinating discussion! Each time I get my mind around a response, something new, different and equally valid comes in and derails my plans. Gotta love it, though!!

Many thanks to each of you for experiences and thoughts. I'll be watching this and get back with my plan!

Dave Mo...

Some advice here is more equal than others.  Just keep moving forward. If you can handle the level flight thing but not much more then you are probably ready for a stunt trainer but you are not ready for a combat wing!

Good luck - Ken

[Fredvon4]

I am in the camp that followed Bret's advice on several of same or similar planes for flying/training day...Dork one...pull out another

Not having any success at warp free balsa wings---- I decided to let Phil Cartier (Core House) supply me several RST (Rugged Stunt Trainer) kits..at the time were $69 each now I think they are $89...I also bought extra sets of wings...still unused

they are as near a ARF as can be had with a build time of less than 5 hours after you do the first one carefully...first one took a bit of head scratching and relearning some build techniques, glues, and fretting way too much on final finish so a full weekend to build

PURE !!!BBTU OS FP and LA 20s and 25s power my RST fleet...I have figure Nine dorked in honking fast ... set aside, fly next in line then cleaned the dirt out of the dorked one... NO broken fuse, wing or stab

Not much of any serious trim work is needed...they do NOT have adjustable lead-outs...Follow religiously Phil's set up in the instructions
I added Erik Rule Aluminum LG and 2 1/4" wheels

http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/index.html

Phil's web site has always been a mess...like a few other cottage guys...Just call the man...he will take care of you

[Air Ministry .]

Opps , looks like I missread that . Must be the Computer ! . 

The ' Scale Racing ' Good Year Racers , in the Appropriate Section ,

Would rip around snortingly with a L A 25 , a 8 x 6 should see the ' TON ' easily .
If you want to get all artistic & have something durable .

Most with two elevators & 45 degree control travel will manadge a loop & rip around inverted too , 60 Ft lines tho , for that & a .25 !

The Old GOLDBERG Shoestring / Buster / Cosmic Wind , are a bit more durable & fall together Easier than th Brodak Replicers ,
Tho sometimes weigh a ton , as they did a deal with the Turks & some are made from parts of the Ark . !So a tad heavy , Tho Not All .

Allof them Mid West Profile suckers are in a Similar Veign . The SHOESTRING plan is downloadable from those Hippocket or sim sites ,
And is a bit of a classic , Suitable for ' Dogfighting ' in the manouvreableity Dept .

Or theres several ( Thousand ) other choices .

[Dave Moritz]

Greetings All:

Super discussion here, and lots of generosity.

First, Norm probably hit the nail on the head most squarely. For the short term, I've got an absolutely wacky and maybe fun craft in mind for the Enya .15.  I hope that it can be put into the air (and dirt) numerous times during the remainder of the flying season. I'll be back seeking further feedback on that project.

Brett and others have convinced me that multiple planes are needed in order to progress. By the way Brett, what is Hot Stuff and where can it be had?

Matt: Think I'll pass on the combat wing suggestion. I thank you for the beauty of your nifty full-fuse plans. Also appreciate your non-linear communication style!

So, how to decide between stick-built and foam? Well, I've already got on hand a BBTU in the form of a Skyray kit and stock .25 LA motor. It'd be just a question of building two more Skyrays and sourcing another .25 LA. And there's time to build this winter. On the other hand, there's something about a foam wing that strikes me as inherently expendable and thus subject to fewer regrets when it plows into the ground. Sounds like the .25 LA would work for the foam also. Finally, there are budget considerations.

Well, it looks like I'll soon be making a call to Corehouse to see what Phil can offer. Then I'll break open the Skyray kit and figure out how much additional lumber and supplies will be needed to give me a triple header there. Decisions, decisions!

Thanks again for each of you who took time to respond. All the best to all the rest!

Dave Mo...





   

[Tim Wescott]

... By the way Brett, what is Hot Stuff and where can it be had? ...

CA glue.  Brett is showing that he is a Beginning Geezer by referencing an obscure product line that hasn't been well-known for years.  To my surprise, though, they still exist.  According to Satellite City, the purveyors, Hot Stuff is still the best stuff to be had.  They may even be right.  In the mean time, CA glue from the hobby shop (which is almost certainly rebranded Dave Brown stuff) is good enough. 

It's not a bad idea to get the little tubes of one-use Crazy Glue and keep them in your flight kit -- one real problem with CA is that it hardens once the bottle is opened.  Crazy Glue is inferior glue in general, but a newly-opened tube of Crazy Glue is way better than a bottle of the World's Best Glue that's been knocking around in your flight kit for a year.

[Ken Culbertson]

CA glue.  Brett is showing that he is a Beginning Geezer by referencing an obscure product line that hasn't been well-known for years.  To my surprise, though, they still exist.  According to Satellite City, the purveyors, Hot Stuff is still the best stuff to be had.  They may even be right.  In the mean time, CA glue from the hobby shop (which is almost certainly rebranded Dave Brown stuff) is good enough. 

It's not a bad idea to get the little tubes of one-use Crazy Glue and keep them in your flight kit -- one real problem with CA is that it hardens once the bottle is opened.  Crazy Glue is inferior glue in general, but a newly-opened tube of Crazy Glue is way better than a bottle of the World's Best Glue that's been knocking around in your flight kit for a year.

Be kind - Brett may be a beginning Geezer but he will be in plenty of good company once he advances to intermediate.  I flew a lot of free flight when Hot Stuff hit the hobby.  It changed everything.  Most of the grocery store CA's are inferior to the hobby brand(s).  You need a thin penetrating and a thicker slow drying - slow?  When did 15 seconds become slow?  I just grab a small bottle of both and some kicker (spray to cure CA when it doesn't want to) and throw them into a dark corner of my flight box and take them out (hopefully unused) when I get back.  Now here is one that nobody has mentioned - the flight box.

Invest in one of the roller kinds that have a bunch of tool bins and places to put stuff.  Northern Tool carries a great one for a reasonable price but I have seen better for a few $$ more.  When I go out to fly I have an extra of every doo-dad on my plane, most of the props I own, extra lines, batteries and every tool you could need to make a repair.  It is ready to go at all times and I just load it into the car with my planes (plural) when I go practice.  We have some guys that are better equipped than the local hobby shop.  Mine has a place to carry my lawn chair and stooge.  Properly placed, they also make great references for intersections.

Ken

[Brett Buck]

Brett and others have convinced me that multiple planes are needed in order to progress. By the way Brett, what is Hot Stuff and where can it be had?

  It's a specific brand of Cyanoacrylate adhesive - the first that was marketed to modelers. You can still get it, and I still think Hot Stuff "Super T" is the best "medium" cyanoacrylate. But, any generic cyanoacrylate is adequate for gluing balsa together. There are only a few manufacturers, maybe 3, and it all comes from there regardless of the label. Most hobby shop brands are from "Bob Smith", Zap I think makes it, and Satellite City gets it from whoever too over from Eastman (maybe Loctite). There are industrial versions, with much less stabilizer, that are arguably stronger, which is probably moot, since even the stabilized versions are more than strong enough when used properly - and the stabilized/consumer/hobby versions last much, much longer open at room temperature.

   I would highly recommend searching for the links to Bill and Bob Hunter's how to build with Hot Stuff videos, they are absolutely chock full of nuggets on how to best and most efficiently build using cyanoacrylate, with a lot of pretty innovative techniques. I was very surprised when I watched them again (after maybe 40 years( at how much of their techniques I used, and had forgotten where I got them.  They are linked on Stunthangar somewhere, they are well worth your time.

   Brett

try here:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/building-techniques/laminating-glue-(fuselage)/msg317971/#msg317971

[Mark Mc]

Brett and others have convinced me that multiple planes are needed in order to progress...

...Then I'll break open the Skyray kit and figure out how much additional lumber and supplies will be needed to give me a triple header there. Decisions, decisions!

Dave Mo

Dave, I drank the Cool-Aid and scratch built three Skyrays.




I just crashed the first one this Wednesday.  I should have brought two planes to the field, but I'd hurt my ankle and figured I'd be doing good to fly one plane.  Well, I didn't do too good...  The plane got behind me, and before I could get my orientation back, it crashed.  Video showed it hitting almost straight down (I use my hatcam to record each flight so I know what happens when I crash).  I didn't take any post-crash pictures, but it was pretty beat up.  Engine crankshaft bent and one mounting lug broken off, muffler bolts sheared, several ribs broken, inboard leading edge broken where center sheeting ends, outboard lower spruce spar broken where center sheeting ends, center sheeting ripped out top and bottom, trailing edge broken at both sides of fuselage ( nose stopped, but the wings wanted to keep going), fuselage split horizontally about six inches from the wing t.e. back, elevator broken where control horn is mounted, and the large wing skid I was using for a tail skid was sheared off (?!?).  I even punctured a hole in the clunk tank, which is a first for me in 35 years of modelling.  But the stab and rudder were unscathed.


I was flying the pink one on the assumption that it would be the first to go and most expendable, and I'd get to move on to the more manly colors after I crashed it.  Well, the boys at Delta Park insinuated that if I were a real modeller, I'd fix it up and fly it again instead of throwing it in the corner to wait for repair "someday".  So, crashed on Wednesday afternoon, repaired and ready to fly on Friday morning.  Unfortunately for me, my wife scheduled the painters to come out to the house on Friday without consulting me, so I couldn't fly the repaired plane.  Maybe I can get out next Wednesday.  But, these Skyrays are easily repairable in a short time.

Mark

[Chris Wilson]

What kind of filter do you use to keep dirt from going down the venturi in a crash? 


Joe Ed Pederson

Use a "Dork tube" - short length of silicone tubing longer than the intake that folds over upon impact.

[TigreST]

Lots of sage advice above without a doubt.  I don't know if my comments below will carry and weight at all...and that's o.k.

I don't fly comp. But I have loved building nice looking (at least to me) airplanes since I started in c/l back in the early 70's.  Even though we might crash them my brother and my models always had a certain look about them that we thought was pleasing to our young eyes....we did not fly junky models. Each model was an attempt to better our building and finishing skills within the realms of the tools and equipment we had at the time... read: a few colors of Testors dope and some masking tape and a good paint brush.

During our "self taught" years of c/l a big piece of the ability to progress on the flying side of the hobby was knowing that the airplanes we were flying "could in fact pull a loop"or "fly inverted " (without the engine stopping) etc. There was this "mental unknown" attached to any advancement in the flying.   Most models built to plan spec could out fly the kid that was holding the handle if only that kid had the balls to try and make it "pull a loop" or "fly inverted" etc.   

So how do you gain the confidence in both the model and then your flying skills? Having an experienced pilot fly your plane and do a loop etc could help you at least know that "yes my model will fly a loop", but you still have to get past your own mental block about doing it.  We did not have that kind of test pilot available to us, which in a way only added to the excitement and the feeling of accomplishment we all got as we progressed.  Wow those were some great days.

  I think it is possible and probable that when you attempt and succeed at having done a loop or having flown inverted, regardless of the type of airframe used...you have in affect knocked down one of those mental barriers that was holding you back.  So...a foam slow combat job,..or a rtf combat wing from the iron draperies, or a plank wing trainer... will no doubt get you past that mental "will it do it" "can I do it"  block once you've actually managed to do the maneuver.  With that mental block torn down you will have gained much needed knowledge/feel/experience about what is required of both you the pilot and how your model needs to perform in order to fly that same maneuver with each proceeding design you build.

  The loop was for me and my flying friends sort of the starting point.  Fly loops until the lines are so twisted you can't hardly control the plane "Why is that we wondered?   The next flight altering move in my mind is inverted...from here on out all other things are possible.  Like the loop, inverted presents yet another metal hurdle to get over.  Like most things...having done it once .it's like  "mind blown.   why did I think this was so hard?" kind of thing.   

We still went on to attempt to master the building and finishing aspects of the hobby to at least a point where we continued to please ourselves. But that was always part of the way we approached the hobby.

The path to getting there of course may be very different for each of us.  Lots of good advice up above for sure...but even getting it wrong can still be a whole lot of fun and a bit of an adventure.

Thanks for listening,
 

[qaz049]

Use a "Dork tube" - short length of silicone tubing longer than the intake that folds over upon impact.

A brace of Profi K12/19 Diesels fitted with Dork tubes for British Combat.

[Dave Moritz]

Tony:

Well written advice, so many thanks to you for taking the time to combine a bit of reminiscing with your years of experience.

I intend to start on some kind of hybrid stick and foam crash craft for the Enya .15 previously mentioned. If I can post photo's here, so much the better for garnering advice.

Cheers,
Dave Mo...

[Dave Moritz]

Mark:

Sorry to hear about that nasty crash with the pink Skyray. At least you got it back together so that it can see action again. Hope you can figure out what happened so that you avoid that technique in the future.

So, what are you using to power each of these? All the same-sized motor, props, fuel and fuel tanks?

Thanks.

Dave...

[Mark Mc]

So, what are you using to power each of these? All the same-sized motor, props, fuel and fuel tanks?

Dave...

Dave, the planes all have OS .25 LA-S engines spinning APC 10-4 props with 4 ounce clunk tanks, although I only fill the tank with 2 ounces right now as that gets me four minutes of run time.  I used the same hardware that would have come with a SIG kit.  This gives an elevator throw of ± 30 degrees.  The yellow plane weighs 28.1 ounces, the blue 28.7 ounces, and the pink one was a pig at 30.4 ounces.  With the repairs, it is probably around 31 ounces, now.  I didn't weigh it after finishing.  Maybe I'll weigh it when I get back in town in a couple of weeks.  But at 30.4 it was more than responsive enough for me, and with an engine out it glides well.

Mark

[Chris Wilson]

Interesting thread,  anything labelled "Trainer" simply teaches one to stick part A to part B - not to fly with anything that approaches confidence.

For me, an undercarriage is essential as take offs and landings are the very first things that must be mastered,  hence a combat wing fails miserably here.
And the model must be capable of a controlled glide,  yet to see a sheet wing model do this well. .

[TigreST]

For me, an undercarriage is essential as take offs and landings are the very first things that must be mastered,  hence a combat wing fails miserably here.
And the model must be capable of a controlled glide,  yet to see a sheet wing model do this well. .

I would take a guess that you may have not seen or flown a Guillows Profile Trainer III.  It fits your landing gear criteria but also  disproves your  "...controlled glide, yet to see a sheet wing model do this well" comment.  Granted, for a "sheet wing" it does in fact have an airfoil shape carved into it.  We flew the large version of this thing back in the day.  Amazing dead stick glide.  As per my comments above, we were learning on our own at the time.  We managed loops and wingovers with it but not much else.  I never went inverted unit I completed a Fox .35 powered Goldberg Shoestring around 1976-77.  A great profile combo (IMHO). 

[Ken Culbertson]

I would take a guess that you may have not seen or flown a Guillows Profile Trainer III.  It fits your landing gear criteria but also  disproves your  "...controlled glide, yet to see a sheet wing model do this well" comment.  Granted, for a "sheet wing" it does in fact have an airfoil shape craved into it.  We flew the large version of this thing back in the day.  Amazing dead stick glide.  As per my comments above, we were learning on our own at the time.  We managed loops and wingovers with it but not much else.  I never went inverted unit I completed a Fox .35 powered Goldberg Shoestring around 1976-77.  A great profile combo (IMHO). 

My IMHO too.  That Shoestring, Buster and I think the Cosmic Wind was a STOA combination in the 60's.  I had both the Shoestring and Buster and loved every "burp" from my Fox 35.  The Shoestring taught me to never let your lines go slack taking off from grass and the Buster taught me that you can't start an 20' outside loop from 15'.  Lessons that I still practice today!  (Either one of them will out glide the Guillows Trainer)

Ken

[Brett Buck]

As per my comments above, we were learning on our own at the time.  We managed loops and wingovers with it but not much else.  I never went inverted unit I completed a Fox .35 powered Goldberg Shoestring around 1976-77.  A great profile combo (IMHO). 

  That's one of the points I have made on several occasions. it makes nearly no sense for every individual to build this sort of airplane as a "trainer". You build it, that's easy for almost everyone, then you fly it 3-4 times before you master takeoff, level fight, and landing, and then you have learned just about everything you are ever going to learn with that airplane - and probably a lot of bad things, like, flying in even a little bit of wind is really hard and you might crash, and that you need to give full up and full down just to get it to do anything.

    It makes a lot more sense to me to have these around as "club" or "group" trainers, haul it out when people want to take a random try at control line, or when someone is learning, but have them move on to something more responsive after no more than one flying session.

   BTW I don't know where the perception came from that these airplanes cannot "glide". In many cases, they glide very well (heavy, but relatively low drag), and with the application of a little "arm", can be flown indefinitely after the engine quits. When I had this sort of airplane as a "trainer", I got bored pretty quickly, so I probably flew more total flight minutes with the engine off than with it running, just for something to do. Get a minute-and-a-half engine run, then whip it until you get tired.

    They do have a problem landing on grass - usually, instant flip and tumble end-over-end.

      Brett

[Chris Wilson]

Its perception thing Brett, every sheet wing model that 'I' saw was very nose heavy (because that was 'safe)', had a high wing loading and were poorly trimmed because it was most peoples first model and literally a balsa Airfix kit.
Cox trainers were especially bad in this respect and almost made me give up when I was a lad.

Obviously this could be remedied with knowledge but we are talking about what is marketed to and attracts a beginner.

[TigreST]

Brett,
When I say "and not much else...never went inverted until the Fox.35 Shoestring..."  I'll clarify the statement so there no misunderstanding.  The Profile III may have been up to the task but we were at that point not capable as pilots...er so we believed.  Again,. Learning on our own, no club to touch base with etc.  We did progress over time, but not at the rate I think your advice would indicate that we might have...we were much slower then your "crash/repair/keep going" program would allow for.  Heck..we were kids just having fun. 

As the models got more complex (by degree) we did get more daring with the older models and they became somewhat expendable.  With competition not our main goal (back in those days we did not even think about it) we just spent many an afternoon boring holes in the sky and enjoying the smell of castor oil and K&B 100 and 1000 fuel and the company of like minded friends.  I often think that our parents might believe that as long as they could here a motor running over at the ball diamond that we were safe and staying out of trouble for the most part.

Hmm...maybe I tell a half truth...we did compete....but only against each other.  With each model I know for sure that I tried to build a better model each time as compared to my buddies. 

It is obvious that I am not and will not be a serious competitor.  That said, I love reading the tales of gents like yourself and others that compete at the national and world levels.  An unbelievable amount of dedication and time, energy, practice, etc. expended to reach that level.  My hats off to you all.

[peabody]

The Guillows Trainer is a super piece for teaching new flyers....I bought two well worn pieces from Mike Turo years ago....the .15 powered one exploded on the deck of the Intrepid after an unplanned wingover.

The .35 unit still exists.

It's important that trainers are not too pretty, otherwise an trainee feels bad when they dork them. My belief is that newcomers shouldn't build them....their usefulness soon goes away after climb. dive, and spinning around for five minutes is accomplished.

The Skyray seems to be the next progression. Easy to build and easy to repair. I would shy away from foamies as they tend to make it look like it's snowing when crashed hard.

Have fun

[Mike Griffin]

My opinion is that it's easier to repair simple built-up models than most foam-based models. As long as you have Hot Stuff and packing tape.

   My suggestion on how to proceed is pretty well documented. You want a simple model that you can repair, and provides adequate performance. Most trainers that use vintage engines are absolutely terrible. I have used a balsa clone of a SIG Skyray 35 for many years now - nominally the same airplane, for about 25 years. I flew it with several vintage engines and while I could get it through complete stunt patterns, it took a lot of effort and, not to be immodest, I was pretty good at model airplanes long before I built the airplane. It could be done but the skill level required was very high. I replaced the engine with a modern engine, and it was like gravity was turned off, it was so much better. The airplane is fully capable of winning any Advanced contest in the right hands, and I think my high score with it is up around 560 points.

   The other thing was that the airplane started off with the stock kit parts - i.e. lots and lots of lite ply, which is both heavy and relatively weak, and also has no "give" to it. The first time it crashed, almost every rib in the airplane broke, and there was no fixing it. I rebuilt the airplane with balsa parts, and it has since crashed at least 40 times, and most of those resulted in no more than a damaged prop. The light wing made it perform *slightly* better, but it was vastly more robust, and most of those crashes resulted in no damage other than the prop. I had to rebuild it a second time, because the Monokote had turned to glass in 25 years in the warm California sun, and just crumbled in a light pancake. Any time it was damaged, I just glued it back together, right at the field, and flew it again.

    My suggestion is a medium-sized profile airplane like the Skyray 35, Flite Streak, Medic, or similar built from normal balsa with normal techniques. Elevator-only is preferred, because it's easier to trim, and getting it trimmed (particularly without any help) is critically important. Cover the wings and tail with Monokote/Ultrakote. Finish the fuselage with epoxy. Do a neat job, but don't go crazy - because you really want to build 2-3 of them at a time, all the same.

   Power the airplane with a *stock* OS20FP ABC or 25LA. When I say stock, that means *all the parts that came with the engine*, *exactly the way it came from the factory*. If you can only find a 20FP or 25LA RC engines, that is OK, get the stock CL venturi and stock needle valve/spraybar assembly from Tower. You probably only need two engines, but set up all the airplanes to be able to switch them easily from a broken airplane to a OK airplane.  Use a *stock* APC 9-4 propellor, and get a lot of them. Make up a couple of sets of .015x60 lines.

  Build and set up the airplanes and engines, and *take them all to the field*. Pick one, start flying it. Don't hold back, push yourself to learn the maneuvers. If you crash, DO NOT pack it in for the day and go home. Save all the peices, put them in a bag or box and put it in the car. Get the next airplane, check your lines, or replace them, and just keep going. Continue until you are out of time, or out of airplanes. Take everything home, and fix them before next session. If you have a problem with the airplane, say it just won't run, put it away, get another one, and keep going. If you run out of airplanes before run out of time, then, take a box with repair parts (like Hot Stuff, 1/64 ply, packing tape or FAS-CAL, saw/knife/sandpaper, etc) and fix the airplane with the least damage. With thin Hot Stuff, you can just push a lot of breaks back together, have all the fibers merge in a perfect splice, and one drop of glue will fix it almost to the point you can't see the break.

   The key is to *just keep going*. The tendency I see over and over is that beginners/novices encounter one problem, then just give up, and try to fix it for next weekend. That's the worst thing you could possibly do, because it both wastes your time, and also, makes you so concerned with crashing and maybe losing another week, that you don't try hard enough.

    Brett

   

Brett when you say finish the fuselage with epoxy, do you mean just clear epoxy like West Systems?


Thank you
Mike

[Brett Buck]

Brett when you say finish the fuselage with epoxy, do you mean just clear epoxy like West Systems?

   You could, but no, I meant 2-part  epoxy paint, easy to apply, even OK with a brush, and durable.

    Brett

[Mike Griffin]

   You could, but no, I meant 2-part  epoxy paint, easy to apply, even OK with a brush, and durable.

    Brett

OK..thank you.
Mike

[Steve Berry]

....the .15 powered one exploded on the deck of the Intrepid after an unplanned wingover.

If you're talking the USS Intrepid Carrier, well, that's a story I'd like to hear.

[peabody]

One and the same
It's been about 15 years....
We (the GSCB) got down there on an incredibly hot day.....flew mostly 1/2a's
Even with short lines, the Guillows 15 flew past the edge of the deck.
Kid overpowered the instructor.....wingover.....boom....big crash