Crashworthy Craft?

[Dave Moritz]

Brett:

Regarding the Skyray trey, I've got one OS .25 LA. I'll keep an eye peeled for more, but I'm finding more OS .20 FPs and OS .25 FPs on the market. If the OS .25 LA is not available, which of the other two would match the lineup better?

Also, where can one get two-part epoxy paint?

Thanks.

Dave...

[Brett Buck]

Brett:

Regarding the Skyray trey, I've got one OS .25 LA. I'll keep an eye peeled for more, but I'm finding more OS .20 FPs and OS .25 FPs on the market. If the OS .25 LA is not available, which of the other two would match the lineup better?

Also, where can one get two-part epoxy paint?

20FP is probably a better choice than a 25FP, although both are satisfactory. Both have more than enough power, the 25FP perhaps too much for this application.

   Two-part epoxy is here:

http://www.klasskote.com/stock-color-kits

   Looks expensive up front, but saves airplanes over poor solutions like dope and various spray-can stuff.

    Brett

[phil c]

  AY YI YI! Stunt and RTF combat planes from the Iron Curtain, are not really the same path forward.

     Brett

Remember, we're talking to a beginner here, who wants to learn the maneuvers.  Crash resistant, or better yet, a plane that bounces will let a pilot learn what up and down do, how to do the maneuvers, what the wing does much faster.  Then they can build an advanced trainer that can do a reasonable pattern.

[Dane Martin]

20FP is probably a better choice than a 25FP, although both are satisfactory. Both have more than enough power, the 25FP perhaps too much for this application.

    Brett

Allow me to reiterate but also add my own experiences flying these engines in the same plane back to back.  I had an LA25 in my boxcar chief and it was borderline not enough. I switched to a 25FP and now it's a beast.
So in a sky ray, I would suspect the 25la will serve you well. The 20FP would be stellar.
The 25FP would be a little unnecessary.

[Dave Moritz]

Well good gents, here's the plan as gleaned from all of the forgoing input. Neither the cheapest way to go nor the priciest. It gets me into the air for some late Summer flying. At this point, don't think competitive flying is for me (but, subject to change).

1) Snag a couple of recommended OS motors off the Bay (25 LA and 20 FP, both used).
2) Talk to Phil and order a foam wing model from him (a Streak of some sort).
3) Build from kit a SIG Skyray for use with the 20 FP motor.
4) Install two-wheel landing gear on each model for stooge launching.
5) Fly at local ball diamonds, launching from smooth gravel and then stepping back to fly over grass. 60 feet of .015 lines.

Given the construction times involved, I'll likely start out flying the (more bounceable?) Streak while constructing the Skyray. I'm hoping that packing tape and glue will get me back into the air shortly after each crash of the foamy.

As you can see, this is a hybrid of the two suggested lines of thought.

Notwithstanding serious flaws in this plan, here we go. Thanks a bunch for the advice!

Dave...

[Tim Wescott]

Allow me to reiterate but also add my own experiences flying these engines in the same plane back to back.  I had an LA25 in my boxcar chief and it was borderline not enough. I switched to a 25FP and now it's a beast.

To complicate things, there's reported to be an old bad 25LA, and the new good 25LA.  Certainly, I have a 25LA and a 20FP, and the 25LA pulled my overweight Skyray around better than my FP did -- so the FP went on my overweight Ringmaster (yes, there's a distressing trend here).  AFAIK, there isn't a good way to tell if you've got an old bad one or a new good one, except that (again, AFAIK, grain -o- salt, all that) they switched to the non-painted motors after they did whatever magic they did to make 'em good.  But the new good one I have is blue.

[Dane Martin]

To complicate things, there's reported to be an old bad 25LA, and the new good 25LA.  Certainly, I have a 25LA and a 20FP, and the 25LA pulled my overweight Skyray around better than my FP did -- so the FP went on my overweight Ringmaster (yes, there's a distressing trend here).  AFAIK, there isn't a good way to tell if you've got an old bad one or a new good one, except that (again, AFAIK, grain -o- salt, all that) they switched to the non-painted motors after they did whatever magic they did to make 'em good.  But the new good one I have is blue.

I have a thread in the engine section about this. The color was never a differentiating factor. I believe it was only the crank.

[John Craig]

I am in the camp that followed Bret's advice on several of same or similar planes for flying/training day...Dork one...pull out another

Not having any success at warp free balsa wings---- I decided to let Phil Cartier (Core House) supply me several RST (Rugged Stunt Trainer) kits..at the time were $69 each now I think they are $89...I also bought extra sets of wings...still unused

they are as near a ARF as can be had with a build time of less than 5 hours after you do the first one carefully...first one took a bit of head scratching and relearning some build techniques, glues, and fretting way too much on final finish so a full weekend to build

PURE !!!BBTU OS FP and LA 20s and 25s power my RST fleet...I have figure Nine dorked in honking fast ... set aside, fly next in line then cleaned the dirt out of the dorked one... NO broken fuse, wing or stab

Not much of any serious trim work is needed...they do NOT have adjustable lead-outs...Follow religiously Phil's set up in the instructions
I added Erik Rule Aluminum LG and 2 1/4" wheels

http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/index.html

Phil's web site has always been a mess...like a few other cottage guys...Just call the man...he will take care of you

I agree with the above!    Phil's RST is the plane for beginners!  I strategically reinforced my wing with drywall tape. I have not been able to break the wing but I have bent the front of the fuselage a number of times.  I am not sure that the RST is on Phil's website; you may need to just call him & order a couple.  Mine has a FP 25, 1/8 wire landing gear, & 2.5 lite foam wheels, adjustable leadouts, rusteolum paint.  I am not a good flyer. I can't do the full pattern. I've flown Flight Streaks, R-masters, Sig Banshee & Skyray, Combat planes, & trainers. They all fly well as trainers. The Corehouse RST flies as well as any but is the most break resistant & easiest to repair!  Once you are comfortable with the RST, Phil cuts the leading edges for the TEOSAWKI, Pipemaker Mike has posted plans on this site for the Teosawki.  The Teosawki is an RST but all grown up, needs a 45-46 engine.

Beginner Tips to keep the plane out of the Dirt. An RPM tack for consistent runs, An easily reset kitchen timer to time flights.  My crashes are poor engine run or run out of fuel. The tack & timer  have minimized this problem.  An O-ring & a piece of 1/8 green pre-airfilter from the small engine shop works a bit better than pantyhose.

[Dave Moritz]

Indeed Phil Cartier is a class act. I called him and made the arrangements for a Streak RST - a very nice kit with well-formed styro wings was quickly delivered.

Tim: As far as the OS LA .25, I've got a blue one and have no problem getting 12,000 out of it on an APC 9x4. So maybe I've got a good one. A plus is that it's the same weight and mounting hole pattern as my OS FP .20 (stock mufflers included IAW Brett Buck).

Fred: Agreed, Phil's kit requires just the right amount of problem-solving to make the build fun. I love it!

John: Lots of good tips in your response!  Not sure how you are deploying the drywall tape, but suspect it is on the wing's leading edge? I'll take your tac and timer advice to heart after I give the foamy bird its maiden flight. I especially like your suggestions on follow-up models and the green air filter material.

By the way, my plan is to build the RST and Skyray with single nose wheel landing gear in order to keep weight down. I launch with a stooge that employs a U-shaped padded gate that pivots forward upon release. The padded U is in contact with the front of the horizontal stab. Am hoping that the stab's pressure against the pads will negate the tendency for the ship to roll while it's still in the gate.

So that's it. Thanks again.

Dave...   

[John Craig]

http://necn.homestead.com/News3.html

Good tips, see the PDF file for placement & use of the tape.  The superlite drywall patch is a nice trick to finish the foam before covering; you sand most all of it off.  The only thing I  did to re enforce the leading & trailing from dings & dents was an extra layer of Phil's covering material. I did need a small piece of aluminum (lid from cat food can, trimmed square) as a trim tab on the outboard wing. I must have produced a bit of a warp along the way.  Love the RST!  When using a stooge, I have put a length of 1/16 wire as a skid on the inboard wing tip to keep the wings level on take off; an old racer trick.

[Brett Buck]

3) Build from kit a SIG Skyray for use with the 20 FP motor.

    I would just get the plans, or build a second one out of balsa instead of plywood/spruce, because the plywood version will self-destruct beyond repair on the first significant crash. The balsa version will last much longer and will not destroy every part in the wing at the slightest whack.

   Brett

[Dave Moritz]

John: Nice tip to help out on the stooge launch! In Phil's instructions for the RST, he makes no mention of outboard tip weight. Unless I misunderstand the design, I'll install something around .75 ounce. By the way and with apologies to all of the good aesthetes out there, I intend to finish the plane in a purely functional manner with crashworthiness first and a pattern that distinguishes between the upper and lower part of the plane. So probably white paint with some black over the SLC. I usually fly alone (no audience, or at least none until I can figure out how to do this sport without bringing it shame). Thanks for your help!

Brett: Glad you clarified the Skyray ply rib question I had in the back of my mind. Think I'll cut new balsa ribs and use them for the kit build; the ply ribs will make good tinder for my wood-burning heat stove. Though if someone wants them, I'll gladly place them in the mail after I use them for patterns.

So it looks like I'll be hitting the circle next Spring with two crashworthy craft.   

[Ken Culbertson]

I usually fly alone (no audience, or at least none until I can figure out how to do this sport without bringing it shame).

Don't fly alone because you don't want to be embarrassed.   All of us had to learn and simply being in the company of expert, or even simply better fliers speeds up that process big time.  All of us can remember when just going home with the same number of planes that you came with was a major accomplishment.  In over 60 years in this sport/hobby I have only met a handful of people that would not welcome you at the circle.

Ken

[Dane Martin]

I usually fly alone (no audience, or at least none until I can figure out how to do this sport without bringing it shame). Thanks for your help!

Dave, I go to contests so others will always have the ability to say, "well at least I'm not that guy....."

[Ken Culbertson]

Dave, I go to contests so others will always have the ability to say, "well at least I'm not that guy....."

LOL - I do the same so others will be able to proudly claim that they didn't finish last!

Ken

[Fredvon4]

baraboo?

on hand stunt trainer?
"So it looks like I'll be hitting the circle next Spring with two crashworthy craft.".........confused I am

What is wrong with next weekend..?...Hurricane Fol is no where near you.....

BTW two of my Three RST....have Removable wing assys

The one inch wide 1/64 ply saddle in the 1/2" fuselage is plenty to hold the wing properly orientated with a inboard strip of Gorilla tape
The controls are attached to the fuselage

Inboard strip of Gorilla tape...thunk on this.. the gooey exhaust is all on outboard side of fuse and wing.....

I fussed and fussed with first RST filling the foam wing...sanding...fussing trying to make look pretty.... pure waste of effort

2nd and third are simple rattle can Rustoleum fuselage and tail...Water color paint on bare foam wing than then the SLC

single wheel gear is OK

BUT the short gears from Eric Rule RST are cheap and work just fine with OS 20, 25 Power

Part Number: PLGS
RSM Price $13.99

http://www.rsmdistribution.com/index.php

[Dave Moritz]

Gents:

Ah, down to the nitty gritty with a bit o' good-natured chiding!

Ken and Dane, I'm so vain (poetry - ha!) that I don't want potential control-line converts to see me plow the fields. But, I'll get over that and perhaps someday replace youse guys at the contests! FYI, I've every reason to believe that I'm the only CL flyer in town & 'round these parts. Milwaukee has a good club, though two hours' away.

What can I say Fred other than thanks for the great tips on the RST. They were just what I was looking for as Phil's kit directions point towards a refined model. Can't say that I blame him, but I'll be groovin' on yours to speed up the build. I already glued blocks in the RST fuse for single gear, but will use Eric's for the Skyray.

Much obliged to all!

Dave...

[phil c]

  AY YI YI! Stunt and RTF combat planes from the Iron Curtain, are not really the same path forward.

     Brett

RTF combat planes, trimmed nose heavy, and other similar foam wing designs can take a terrible beating and are usually easy to fix.
Flown over grass, if possible, they are very adequate to learn how to fly all the pattern maneuvers.  Lots of older folks started with Ringmasters, Flite Streaks, and Shoestrings.  Once you can fly all the maneuvers, starting in the right place, putting the loops and corners in roughly the right places, then it's time to build a more capable plane that will fly more precisely.

I can't count the number of intermediate and advanced flyers I've seen that can't fly recognizable maneuvers or recover from a gust of wind trying to fly in a contest.

ps  My maneuvers are usually not very good.

[Dave Moritz]

Hello All:

Just a follow-up to Phil's note. I built the RST he sent me in kit form and got in three test flights before temperatures got too cold. What a joy to fly! Best handling model I've flown yet. It handles beautifully with the CG indicated in the kit, responsive and predictable. Bravo, Phil.

I followed his exact instructions. Installed an OS 20 FP and 60 feet of lines. APC 9x4. Will try some risky maneuvers in the Spring.

I've attached a photo, but not sure how or if it'll show up in this post.

Dave...

[Dave Moritz]

Ah, now I see how the attachment function works!

D...

[Fredvon4]

So F---ing ugly it's a work of art

and it flies more gooder than a lot of kit built birds

and it is durable....done right very durable

and it is EXPENDABLE!!

Last attribute is necessary to learn scary stuff like inverted

I am a hack pilot that is NOT interested in competition Stun flying and while I admire the pros...

I personally think, as an observer, that Golf, Bowling, Curling, Drone racing, and PAMPA stunt rate up there with me on porch after a Texas Rain watching the grass grow...mass quantities of Bombay Gin, Gentleman Jack, Grey Goose, Midelton Scotch is required

I can not do it, but a few of my aged friends must have a deep bong hit to watch the full 7 minute routine

David Moritz...Disregard the "ugly" above...compared to ANY appearance standards...even my very low standards...all three of my RSTs are -35 point planes.... grin... like several breeds of dogs or cats, so ugly they are cute and lovable....

[Dave Moritz]

Fred:

Ugly is what I was striving for, so it's nice to have my success acknowledged. Thanks a bunch!  Come next Spring, I intend to meet with even more such esthetic success when I start taking some serious chances with it. Did I say that it flies beautifully? Well, it really does.

Regarding competition, you and I are bit of a like mind. High school sports for me was sitting second or third trumpet in the school band, and being quite content to boot!

All the best,
Dave Mo...

[Tim Wescott]

Ugly is what I was striving for,...

The first plane I built intending to get into CLPA for real was a Blue-Box Nobler.  I covered it in really loud international orange Econocoat, figuring that it'd be butt-ugly and I wouldn't mind crashing.  I made the mistake of using black trim.  How was I to know that international orange and black would look good together?

Having a reasonably nice looking plane didn't keep me from crashing it, fortunately.

[Ken Culbertson]

The first plane I built intending to get into CLPA for real was a Blue-Box Nobler.  I covered it in really loud international orange Econocoat, figuring that it'd be butt-ugly and I wouldn't mind crashing.  I made the mistake of using black trim.  How was I to know that international orange and black would look good together?

Having a reasonably nice looking plane didn't keep me from crashing it, fortunately.

I didn't think you could enter a PAMPA event unless you could prove that you have crashed at least one blue-box in your lifetime.

Ken