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Author Topic: Cranky Flying Nobler  (Read 2758 times)

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Cranky Flying Nobler
« on: June 22, 2010, 08:25:25 PM »
Greetings all.  I want to thank you all for many good tips I've gotten from this forum.  I have a Top Flite Kit Built Nobler. It's a second hand plane.  It came with an old Fox 35 that I didn't feel adequately pulled it.  It now has a B-40 and I have finally gotten the bugs worked out of it - APC 10-5,  new needle valve assembly, Sig RC hot glow plug and Brodak 10% nitro, 11 1/2 by 11 1/2 castor and synthetic lubricant.  It's running fine.  By the way, recently it has flown best and especially pulled best with Top Flite wooden 11-6 propeller.  However, I put on the APC 10-5 because of the wind and also knowing it is one of the most recommended props.

However this plane does not fly well. With the Fox 35 it seemed to have too little power and didn't want to stay on the end of the lines.  Since then,  I have put 50 degree outward spoiler on the rudder to hopefully keep it at the end of the lines.  I also adjusted the adjustable leadouts, sliding them almost back as far as they will go. Both lines slide together.  I also was told that it was nose heavy so, up till now,  I've glued 3 3/4 ounces of weight the the horizontal stab - or is it horizontal stabilizer. 

However, this plane is so awful to fly that I'm still flying on 52 ft. lines.  Here now is a description of how it was handling this evening, which was rather windy.  It was jerky on the end of the lines, especially at the side where the wind was blowing into the circle even in level flying.  I did a few loops downwind but it jerked and wobbled at the bottom of the loops.  In general, it doesn't feel very responsive.  I want to eventually fly it confidently on 60 ft. lines.  Any suggestions about trimming out this plane would be highly appreciated.  Thanks!

Allen Eshleman

Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 09:34:52 PM »
take the tail weight off - move the leadout as far forward as you can - and get rid of the rudder offset -.

what you have done (by moving the leadouts back, and using offset) is making the plane Yaw in flight....this will make it "bang" whenever you give it control input - as you noticed in the bottom of your loops.

to check things out before you next go fly - hang the plane up by the leadouts on a nail or similar and have a look at how it is hanging - if the nose is down - move the leadouts forward until it hangs level (or ever so slightly nose down) - this will give you a decent starting point

how much tip weight do you have in the outboard tip?  a lot of times people have far too much.....to check if you have the right amount - next time you fly loops - watch how it tracks - if you can see the outboard wing during insides - add some more weight - if you cant  - fly some outsides - if you can see the bottom of the outboard wing- take some weight out......keep doing this until you can no longer see the outboard wing in noth directions.

ok - so now you want to check your CG - make sure it is in the given range for the model - I cant see how it would be nose heavy with a B-40 in the front, if it was a swap for the fox -as they weigh about the same.

I would run a bigger diameter prop on the B-40 too - in the 11 to 12 " range - this will help.

What lap times are you running?  are they too slow??

Go back to the basics first - and start again........

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Offline Clayton Berry

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 09:56:36 PM »
I've seen the Brodak 40 on a Nobler with an APC 10.5 / 4.5.  Good combination.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 10:04:02 PM »
What Wynn and Clayton said. The Thunder Tiger Cyclone 11 x 4.5 is also an excellent prop for the B.40. 

Another visual cue when flying...sight down the flap hingeline...it should be very close to inline with your eye. Some say to look at the wheels...they should be as one...but landing gears can get bent a bit wonky, so you can't trust them all that much.  H^^ Steve
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 08:38:04 AM »
All of the proceeding with a set of .015 X 60 cable lines.  Another prop that usually easy to get is he Top Flite 11-4 or even 11-5 power point prop.  Let us know how it goes. H^^
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Online Bill Hummel

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 10:41:28 AM »
Hi, Allen, wondering where you are located. All good ideas, but always better if a more experienced flier could SEE the ship, and check the controls, etc.  Would be worth a drive to hook up with one of the stunt guys to help solve your problems. We're in upstate NY, near Albany, if that helps at all...
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Offline Garf

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 12:14:56 PM »
Since you didn't build it, you need to check the alignment and angle of attack of both the wing and stab. Also check that the neutral point of the flaps and elevator matches. The neutral settings on my Fronkensteen 3 was off, and it caused it to hunt in level flight. You could also need to adjust the engine thrust angle.

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 06:36:14 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions.  If I were to make these changes one at a time, which should I do first?  I am afraid of it not staying out on the end of the lines. 


Also,  I live in the South Central Pennsylvania near the Maryland line. There is a very fine flier in Hagerstown,  Maryland. I am contacting him for some help in trimming.  He actually flies at a club field in Chambersburg, PA.   Hagerstown is only 20 miles away.  I'm near the North South corridor of Rt. 81. I live in Mercersburg, PA.

Thanks for the help.  I'm about to try some of these suggestions.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 07:41:57 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions.  If I were to make these changes one at a time, which should I do first?  I am afraid of it not staying out on the end of the lines. 


Also,  I live in the South Central Pennsylvania near the Maryland line. There is a very fine flier in Hagerstown,  Maryland. I am contacting him for some help in trimming.  He actually flies at a club field in Chambersburg, PA.   Hagerstown is only 20 miles away.  I'm near the North South corridor of Rt. 81. I live in Mercersburg, PA.

Thanks for the help.  I'm about to try some of these suggestions.

       First and foremost, *get rid of that rudder offset*!  Excess offset tends to cause exactly the problem you describe. Even the stock arrangement of airfoiled fin with significant offset is *way too much* for clean flying, but additional rudder tab will be catastrophic. Don't cut off the fin to get it straight, just ensure that you have no more than the stock system.

   If it's otherwise straight, a decent CG position, and you have sufficient tipweight, there should be no problem with line tension.

   But before you fly again, be sure and check some critical parameters. First, check the alignment of the wing and tail. Measure from hingeline to hingeline at the tips of the stabilizer. It should measure the same on both sides, i.e. the hingelines should be parallel to each other. If they are skewed more than about 1/16" out, you will have some problems. Then check that the wing and tail are parallel to each other in "tilt". Sight it from behind, and if one stab tip is higher relative to the other, you need to fix it.   To fix the tilt or small amounts of "skew", you can use the boiling water and towels trick. For significant amounts of skew you may have to cut the stabilizer loose skew it over straight, and then re-glue.

    While you are checking for the stabilizer being tilted, also check the wing and flaps for warps. Hold hte airplane up by the tail and sight along the trailing edge of the wing. Tilt it up or down until the trailing edge of the wing is centered at the root. Then, without moving, sight along the trailing edge to the tips. If it's centered at the wing root, and not centered at the tips, you have a warp and you need to straighten it out.  Same thing with the the flaps. If it's an iron-on, you can try reheating the covering with a heat gun and twisting (although if it's built crooked you will have a problem fighting that mighty D-tube with only monokote. If it's silkspan/dope, you are probably going to have to use the boiling water and towel trick.

    Also check that the engine is either straight ahead, or slightly pointed to the right. If you can see it with your eye when you look, that's enough.

    Also check the center of gravity. To start, balance it so that the airplane balances about 1/2" behind the leading edge at the tips. This is probably not ideal, but it's certainly safe until the rest of it gets sorted out. It also ensures that the leadouts are at least in a safe place. It doesn't matter how much weight you might have to add, just put it in there.

   When you get to the field, attach the lines, and then hold the airplane by the spinner and tip of the fin, so it can roll. With the lines attached, the outboard wing should drop distinctly. If not, add tipweight until it does. It should probably lean about 10 degrees to the right with about 5 feet of line suspended in the air. Once again, this may well be too much, but it will be safe.

     You should be using .015x60 stranded lines to start. No way should they need to be as short as 52 unless you are on oversize lines. With either engine you should be trying to start with about 5 second laps- once again, probably faster than necessary if everything is perfect but until you get it perfect you need to get it safe. Forget the old BS that people used to toss around about 6-6.5-7 second laps. It got slower every time they told the story. I can fly 6 second laps and get through patterns, did it at the NATs one year, but it's not going to get you decent performance and my airplane is in very good trim.

    A lot of this needs to be done before you even try again. If everything is set as shown, it will pull like a tractor, in level flight, at least. When you do fly it, you have a very good idea to go out with an expert and have them look it over. There's so many simple things to check that will pretty much guarantee success, but you may miss them when describing it to us.

     Brett

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 03:19:58 PM »
I have just now gotten started on making changes.  I changed to an 11-4 APC prop.  I also removed the outward thrust spoiler from the rudder.  I flew it again on the 52 ft lines.  I had the best flight I ever had.  I was able to do lazy eights for the first time and it stayed out there.  Then I went to 60 ft. lines and moved adjusted the lines in the wing tip half way toward the front leading edge.  I had a terrible flight.  It sagged on the end of the lines. 

However,  upon inspection at landing,  I noticed that the motor mounts were broken loose.  I thought I saw a strange down thrust on the motor while I was flying that last flight.  I think the mounts may have busted loose at the end of the previous flight.  Anyway, I have some repair to do.

I have not removed any weight from the tail as suggested.  Actually, in a previous post, I was told that the center of gravity on a green box Nobler is about 2 1/2 inches from the leading edge. 

I have at least one question I want to ask.  Would moving the lines in the wing tip (I can't think on the spur of the moment what you call them) forward,  change the center of gravity so that I could remove weight on the back?

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2010, 03:49:11 PM »

I have not removed any weight from the tail as suggested.  Actually, in a previous post, I was told that the center of gravity on a green box Nobler is about 2 1/2 inches from the leading edge. 

   At the tip? That's insanely too far aft. If its balanced 2 1/2" from the LE a the tip, then I think I can explain your problems.

  To avoid any further confusion, the CG, to start, should be about 7-7.25 inches forward of the flap hinge line.

     Brett

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2010, 07:23:35 PM »
   At the tip? That's insanely too far aft. If its balanced 2 1/2" from the LE a the tip, then I think I can explain your problems.

  To avoid any further confusion, the CG, to start, should be about 7-7.25 inches forward of the flap hinge line.

     Brett

Thank you, Brett.  It is often a case of restating the *suggestion* that can really make sense.  It is a wonder to me as to why "we" always call out a CG from the Leading Edge. (???)  Most all planes have a straight trailing edge (a few have a forward sweep, of course), and the majority of stunt planes have a swept back leading edge.  Too often it is possible to misconstrue the CG being 2 /2" from the LE as being at the tip, whereas it should be at the root, which is more difficult to really measure if you do not have much experience.

Allen, after reading the "problems", I get the feeling that you are doing the things that might "appear to be obvious" to correct your problems, when is reality they are all things that kill line tension.  Which is what most newbies or retreads do.  Nothing at all wrong with being a newbie, or retread, we all were at one time!  So please do not construe this as a negative.  I remember all too well having lead outs too far back, too much rudder offset, too much wing tip weight, and wondering why the plane was a dog.  Thankfully, there are plenty of great guys that are more than willing to help.  Gary Lutz should live near you, I think.  He is truly a great guy, and an expert level pilot.

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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2010, 11:45:59 PM »
Thank you, Brett.  It is often a case of restating the *suggestion* that can really make sense.  It is a wonder to me as to why "we" always call out a CG from the Leading Edge. (???)  Most all planes have a straight trailing edge (a few have a forward sweep, of course), and the majority of stunt planes have a swept back leading edge.  Too often it is possible to misconstrue the CG being 2 /2" from the LE as being at the tip, whereas it should be at the root, which is more difficult to really measure if you do not have much experience.

Allen, after reading the "problems", I get the feeling that you are doing the things that might "appear to be obvious" to correct your problems, when is reality they are all things that kill line tension.  Which is what most newbies or retreads do.  Nothing at all wrong with being a newbie, or retread, we all were at one time!  So please do not construe this as a negative.  I remember all too well having lead outs too far back, too much rudder offset, too much wing tip weight, and wondering why the plane was a dog.  Thankfully, there are plenty of great guys that are more than willing to help.  Gary Lutz should live near you, I think.  He is truly a great guy, and an expert level pilot.

Big Bear

Hi Bill,

This is "exactly" why I've tried to champion the value of knowing just enough aerodynamics to be able to understand the meaning of locating the Center of Gravity relative to the Mean Aerodynamic Chord of the wing.  This sounds like "highfalutin" engineer talk but it is really the simplest of mathematical figurin' and it is the standard by which Centers of Gravity are defined by everything from indoor rubber models to Boeing 747's!

For our purposes (with the vast majority of constant chord and or/straight tapered wings) it means nothing more complex than measuring halfway out each wing panel and balancing the ship by placing a finger under each wing at that point on the span until it is suspended over the fingers.  You then simply measure the distance from the leading edge to that point of balance and divide that number by the length of the chord at that location.  The result is the Center of Gravity in percent of the Mean Aerodynamic Chord (MAC). (Note: this is technically modestly inaccurate as the "mean" chord is slightly different from the "average" chord which is what we measured "halfway" out each wing panel.  For practical purposes the difference isn't worth fretting over, however, and you can quite confidently make any assumptions regarding the CG location based on the above described method)

While the method of measuring from a "straight" hingeline is perfectly adequate for discussing a particular design (although of no value for a swept forward or swept aft hinge line) it doesn't "inform" the user in any other meaningful way and has no predictable value when one design is compared to another.  Again, this is why aerodynamicists embrace the concept of the MAC.  For all intents and purposes, an stunt ship can be designed with pretty much any configuration of wing (swept back, swept forward, elliptical, etc) and be predictably flyable if the MAC is properly defined and its longitudinal location is properly located with respect to the size, shape and relationship of the wing and tail (this to encompass the design of canards, for instance).

The Nobler has a tail area roughly16% the area of the wing.  If Allen were to locate the average chord and balance the Nobler at a point 15% aft of the leading edge at that point (say the average chord is 10" he would then add or subtract weight to get the airplane to balance on his fingertips 1.5" aft of the leading edge at that "average" chord (a "practical" MAC); if he would then place the leadout's centerline about an inch or so behind the CG (when the plane is "balanced" at the wingtips);  remove the rudder offset; insure the wing is not warped and that he has a small amount of outboard tip weight (enough to make the wing drop slowly when the airplane is balanced at the fuse centerline [by the spinner and the tail wheel wire, for instance]; hook up a set of 60' eyelet to eyelet .015 lines and pitch the prop to give him five second a lap lap times 95% of the trimming necessary would be taken care of.  A lot of details would remain to make the ship "competitive" but that probably isn't Allen's current concern.

Ted


Offline Bill Little

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Re: Cranky Flying Nobler
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2010, 12:49:30 AM »
Thank you, Ted.  A *lot* of stuff can be real confusing, even to guys who have been flying for years, until someone explains what is *going on*.

What you give at the end is perfect for about everyone to get the plane safely into the air! And your earlier explanation sets the table to get there.  Once the model is "safely flying", then the trimming can be taken as far as one wants to.  As you (and others) have said, the trimming never really seems to end, if you are really going for *Total Performance*. (had to throw that 1963 FoMoCo PR slogan in there. ;D )

Thanks, again!
Bill 
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