K&B 61 For C/L

[Dave Harmon]

Has anyone tried a K&B 61?
I have one NIB with carb and aluminum venturi....It has never been run so I thought I would ask about it for C/L use.
I have no idea if the timing is good for C/L use.
Chip mufflers are available....I have one and it weighs at least 2 lbs less than the factory muffler.... 
Parts are readily available from MECOA.

[Steve Helmick]

Which version do you have? The old-style with the monoblock case and bolt-on cylinder head is known to work much like a ST .60bb or Merco .61, in a 4-2-4 run. They're a little heavier, but that's not always a bad thing. I'm not sure if anybody has tried the screw-in cylinder/head version, but it might possibly work with 4" pitch and 2-2-2 run.

Since I'm not a fan of tongue mufflers, I'd suggest measuring the bolt spacing and look at Brodak's site and also call Randy Smith and see if he has a CNC Tube Muffler that fits. I really like Randy's muffler.  Steve

[Bill Hummel]

Hi Dave, the Veco/K & B 61 works fine as an old school, 4-2-4 type engine. Used with a .290-.295 venturi, and just about any muffler, hard to tell it’s not a ST 60. In fact, run/props/fuel all like ST 60, just a little heavier.

[Dave Harmon]

Which version do you have? The old-style with the monoblock case and bolt-on cylinder head is known to work much like a ST .60bb or Merco .61, in a 4-2-4 run. They're a little heavier, but that's not always a bad thing. I'm not sure if anybody has tried the screw-in cylinder/head version, but it might possibly work with 4" pitch and 2-2-2 run.

Since I'm not a fan of tongue mufflers, I'd suggest measuring the bolt spacing and look at Brodak's site and also call Randy Smith and see if he has a CNC Tube Muffler that fits. I really like Randy's muffler.  Steve

It is the one piece case with bolt on head....single conventional ring, not Dykes ring.
I think the screw-on head version is non-ring and ABN....never seen one of them.
Mine is the K&B version....not the VECO version which had a large diameter shaft and having to ream the props.
It also has the standard OD replaceable prop shaft.
There are thousands of these engines out there not being used and likely all they need is a crock pot treatment and new ring and bearings.

If anyone else has any comments....good or bad....please post them.

[Dan McEntee]

It is the one piece case with bolt on head....single conventional ring, not Dykes ring.
I think the screw-on head version is non-ring and ABN....never seen one of them.
Mine is the K&B version....not the VECO version which had a large diameter shaft and having to ream the props.
It also has the standard OD replaceable prop shaft.
There are thousands of these engines out there not being used and likely all they need is a crock pot treatment and new ring and bearings.

If anyone else has any comments....good or bad....please post them.

  You are pretty much correct on all counts here. I have seen several run through the years and as Bill H mentions, you might think it's a ST.60 running. I think they are over looked for the fact that they are a bit heavy and are reportedly down a bit on power than a ST.60. The one I remember most is Russ Gifford in the large models he used to build. When the spinner head came out, I think he ran those also, but can't say for sure. I would imagine that most of those that you see have little to zero time on them. You see a lot of them with no box, no muffler and the black plastic aftermarket carb, and I think those are surplus drone engines that were part of a target drone system that you see parts surface from time to time. These would be the all foam air frames that looked sort of Mig-ish, the 12-5 Rev-Up wood props that seem to pop up everywhere, and the K&B .61 engines that followed the rejected Fox .60s.  I have a few of the ringed engines and finally found a spinner head that I want to play with bit don't have a mule airplane to try them out on. For just sport flying, or working your way up the skill ladder in PAMPA, I would grab as many as you think you need when you can find them cheap. Jim Lee has venturis for them. A few extra engines just for parts is handy , and if you see the prop studs listed any where, pick up one or two of those. Other wise, if you need one , measure the length, and go so a fastener supply place and check out 1/4-28 set screws in the length that you need. Those are hardened screws, like you need for a prop shaft. Pick out a model with a shortish nose, such as a Legacy .60 and maybe even shorten the nose a bit more, and allow for a 6 to 8 ounce fuel tank to take the best advantage of what you have in these.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dave Harmon]

Good info Dan....

The aluminum venturi that came with this engine is a K&B/MECOA p/n 81-6151 and has a .340 ID....probably too big.
A LOT more power (torque) is available if the sleeve has the PDP mod. (John Perry Directional Porting)
This mod was not done at the factory to avoid paying a royalty.
Same thing with the Perry carb. They got tired of paying $1 royalty so K&B went back to their crummy carb.
The PDP mod is 2 vertical boost ports/slots on the forward part of the sleeve and 2 more ports at the rear.
Clarence Lee is the only guy that had done this mod but now likely there won't be any more.
If anyone has a clapped out K&B 61....check the sleeve for the PDP mod....and save it!

All parts are available here  http://www.mecoa.com/
Click on the K&B logo.

Keep the info coming....it's all good!

[Dave Hull]

I'm still waiting to see how this one runs. I cleaned it up (not rebuilt, just made do with what was there) after a couple of butcher jobs by "engine men." These engines are pretty well made, and worth using.

Dave

[Dave Harmon]

I'm still waiting to see how this one runs. I cleaned it up (not rebuilt, just made do with what was there) after a couple of butcher jobs by "engine men." These engines are pretty well made, and worth using.

Dave

Dave....it looks to be in pretty good condition.
Clarence Lee recommended 18 synth/4 castor/15 nitro....but that was for R/C use. I know these engines run great on that mix.
Later on he changed that mix to 15 synth/3 castor/15 nitro.
For C/L I think I would start off with 15 nitro GMA and see how it goes.
Because it has ball bearings I don't think it needs GMA oil content but this might be a good starting point to see how it acts.

There are supposed to be white Teflon pads p/n 26-6101 that press into both ends of the wrist pin....don't want to scratch the sleeve.
Mecoa has those pads.

[Dave Hull]

Dave Harmon,

While the engine parts look a lot better, they aren't all great. This engine was a case history in how an engine should not be treated. Maybe I should create a separate post to cover the travails, but I might get nauseous...

The original damage was likely caused by the "mechanic" who didn't know how to pull a sleeve. First, he damaged the sleeve thru the exhaust port but still hadn't budged it--so he got out his best pair of waterpump pliers and went after the flange...and still failed to get it out.

But it's back together and I'm waiting for the owner to install it into something so that we can see how it runs after the repairs. I had to look at my old notes to confirm I bought new wrist pin pads and a new head from MECOA. This was done back in 2018 and there have been a lot of engines across the bench since then.

Personally, I would run the K&B 61 on the higher oil content fuel and knock the nitro down to 5-7% to start with. It has a mild steel liner and plain aluminum piston so it can use the increased lubrication. (We run the K&B 8011 and 4011 ball bearing engines with Dykes ring in Quickie Rat and 20% castor is the way to keep the ring alive. I'd run 22% except the 20% is standard contest fuel.) I'd go with the lower nitro based on seeing one of these haul around a Score ARF easily. And adjust from there.

[Dave Harmon]

I'm still waiting to see how this one runs. I cleaned it up (not rebuilt, just made do with what was there) after a couple of butcher jobs by "engine men." These engines are pretty well made, and worth using.

Dave

Hi Dave.....in your picture...what NVA is that?
The K&B c/l NVA on the MECOA site is not good for c/l.

[Dave Hull]

Dave,

Looks like a Nelson NVA to me. If so, the ones I bought have a plastic insert (nylon?) inside the collet nut.

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

Hi Dave.....in your picture...what NVA is that?
The K&B c/l NVA on the MECOA site is not good for c/l.

    That looks like one of Randy's PA needle valves but maybe he has Nelson make his?? The PA unit has the nylon seal. You probably want one that is long enough for an ST.60. If you want the ST style, I think shttrman carries them is varying lengths.

    Dave;
  I just took a look at that cylinder liner and it sent a chill up and down my spine!! I wonder how the previous mechanic earns his living?? Mayne a brain surgeon??
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Dave Harmon]

Thanks guys for the NVA info.....

The engine in the picture is a mix of very old parts and a few new parts....the rod looks like an old VECO part....the drive washer is an earlier model...the current machined drive washer uses a collet...and of course the shaft is early as well.

BUT......I've been using these engines for thousands of R/C flights since VECO came out with them and they ALL run very well regardless of different version details.
Yeah....that sleeve is the worst I have seen....but I seldom look at other guys engines.
That 'mechanic' never heard that to get that K&B sleeve out....ya gotta heat the case in a toaster oven then it comes right out.
But I'll bet it will run!
The picture is from 67' at Sepulveda Basin now Apollo Field in Van Nuys, Calif.
The engine is my first VECO 61....I still have it!

[Carl Cisneros]

Dave Harmon
If you are planning on keeping the engine and flying it, I would suggest replacing those brass caged bearings.
The cages have been known to come apart when the bearings start to feel a bit rough.
I would replace them with a set from Boca Bearing in Fla.
I use their bearings with high speed cages in all my aircraft and marine engines.

Carl

[Dave Harmon]

Dave Harmon
If you are planning on keeping the engine and flying it, I would suggest replacing those brass caged bearings.
The cages have been known to come apart when the bearings start to feel a bit rough.
I would replace them with a set from Boca Bearing in Fla.
I use their bearings with high speed cages in all my aircraft and marine engines.

Carl

Hi Carl......
You are referring to the other Dave.....Dave Hull.
My bearings don't have the metal ball retainers.

[Carl Cisneros]

LOL
you are right,
wrong Dave.

Had a Senior moment is all.

Carl

[Dave Hull]

At work, we never made any critical engineering decisions until we had at least three Daves all agree. Good thing we had plenty of Daves on that program....

Lots of ST "clone" needle valves out there. The ones that I have purchased in the past directly from Henry had a white plastic--likely a nylon-type material--insert to add friction to the needle via being compressed under the cap nut. This can be fiddlely since it takes a good bit of pressure to begin to deform the nylon and doesn't always work straight away out of the box. A few mods and you're good to go, though....

For just a taste of the history on the K'und'Beast .61 I showed in my earlier picture is that it came out of the bargain barrel at MECOA. Quite literally a barrel. Probably an engine that Randy collected during a trade-in deal. A friend of mine got it for what he considered to be a good price. So he had no idea what it had been through or if it would even run properly. It ran, but ran hot and gave him trouble. It wouldn't needle or hold a setting. And it was difficult for him to hang onto a heavy Score ARF with The Beast running flat out, and so I took a look at it. The internal friction was high and the bearings were set up too tight. Among other things that I only discovered after taking it down. But if it had of been an OS it would have been toast....

Most of the engine cleaned up nicely. It really needs new bearings and probably a new ring. I don't have air gauges to do precision measurements on the bore, but there's a good change that it is still close to round. But, the case fit was buggered by the damage to the sleeve exhaust ports, and I had to fix that. And get the top of the sleeve flat and clean again. I think a hair shampoo company had it right in an ad I saw long ago:  "Don't do the damage in the first place."

Dave Hull

PS--Harmonius Dave: I think I have that tool box you showed in your picture. Maybe you left it at Apollo XI Field? I'm currently President of the Valley Circle Burners based at Apollo. We may still be using that same blacktop....--Hullonius Dave

[Dave Harmon]

PS--Harmonius Dave: I think I have that tool box you showed in your picture. Maybe you left it at Apollo XI Field? I'm currently President of the Valley Circle Burners based at Apollo. We may still be using that same blacktop....--Hullonius Dave

Hahaha....I lived in Torrance for a long time and your name sounds familiar.
There was a small c/l club in Gardena that I was a member for a while...John Wright was president.
We flew at the West end of the 91 freeway on a large dirt mound until they finished the freeway...and I worked at the big AT&T building nearby.

The Rojett NVA is similar re the nylon piece and friction nut.
The picture was taken at the original r/c location which is now under the intersection of Woodley and Burbank Blvd.
In fact....if you know where to look at the N/E corner you can still see part of the runway from that intersection.
Back then both of those streets were not built yet.....the c/l circles were N/E of the r/c runway....and there was a free flight pad as well near the r/c pit area.
Everything was moved to the present location when those streets were put in.

I don't remember where that old tool box came from and I don't remember where it went....oh wait....yes I do....the bottom rusted out so I tossed it!
This was a heckova long time ago....you can tell for sure because of that old Sullivan fuel bulb I am holding...egad..
I think that wingtip belongs to Clarence Lee..

[Shorts,David]

Unfortunately I wasted half a year of practice and frustration trying to get mine to run right. Mine is the new version. Jim Lee gave me the right venturi, that was half of my trouble. Then I couldn't get xonsisten fuel draw with all kinds of tanks and adjustments. Fuel draw, fuel draw, fuel draw. Never did figure out the other half of my problem. Finally called it quits on the kb.

[Dave_Trible]

David try a different needle/spray bar.  Some of those after market jobs are too small in diameter and won't allow enough fuel flow for anything much bigger than a .35 or .40.  You might try an Enya or Super Tigre meant for the .60 size.....If you have to open it five, six or more turns to  start the engine then that is likely the trouble.

Dave

[kenneth cook]

            I've been flying a K&B .61 on a Pat King 850 sq Ringmaster for nearly 5 years. I love it and I wouldn't even consider putting any other engine on it. I have a Dubro 8 oz. tank and running on suction only. I also use a tongue muffler when needed but I love this engine. I read that some of the ring gaps were a bit excessive so I recently put a new one in. I also installed new bearings. The engine hand starts within a flip or two and runs reliably all the time. I have the Webra .60, Enya .60, Merco.60 and these all have similar characteristics. I just really favor the K&B.

[Norm Faith Jr.]

Has anyone tried a K&B 61?
I have one NIB with carb and aluminum venturi....It has never been run so I thought I would ask about it for C/L use.
I have no idea if the timing is good for C/L use.
Chip mufflers are available....I have one and it weighs at least 2 lbs less than the factory muffler.... 
Parts are readily available from MECOA.

I have a MECOA K&B .61 on my Thai Angel II. When I tried using the venturi that it came with, the fuel consumption was too high to finish the pattern. I got a .283 venturi from Jim Lee and that cured the fuel consumption, however my engine runs are not consistent. I've determined that I have a defective ST NVA assembly, that is causing the setting to creep. IMHO the engine is not lacking in HP to pull my ship. I've been launching at around 8900 with a three-blade prop. About halfway into the flight, the engine goes rich, as the needle has started to back out. I have a new NVA installed but haven't had the opportunity to try it out. I'm recovering from an injured index finger on my left hand, due to the three-blade prop. I originally had the MECOA .61 TWISTER on my plane, but it had too much vibration for my liking, however it was not lacking in power either.
Norm

[Dan McEntee]

I have a MECOA K&B .61 on my Thai Angel II. When I tried using the venturi that it came with, the fuel consumption was too high to finish the pattern. I got a .283 venturi from Jim Lee and that cured the fuel consumption, however my engine runs are not consistent. I've determined that I have a defective ST NVA assembly, that is causing the setting to creep. IMHO the engine is not lacking in HP to pull my ship. I've been launching at around 8900 with a three-blade prop. About halfway into the flight, the engine goes rich, as the needle has started to back out. I have a new NVA installed but haven't had the opportunity to try it out. I'm recovering from an injured index finger on my left hand, due to the three-blade prop. I originally had the MECOA .61 TWISTER on my plane, but it had too much vibration for my liking, however it was not lacking in power either.
Norm

       Hi Norm;
       Take the old ST. spray and and examine the slot in the end where the jam nut tightens the needle. Over time with vibration, they close up, and won't pinch snuggly on the needle threads. Take a razor saw with find teeth and go t work on the slot, and saw away some of the material. keep working at ut until you get more space, then see if you have a thin fine file to smooth out the rough spots. A file or emery boards like what are used to clean and even up ignition points is thin enough to fit in. Just avoid prying on the two halves to spread them apart. The brass is pretty brittle and can snap off pretty easily. I have run across some new reproduction ST needle valves that need that treatment before they will work correctly, also.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Dave Hull]

Lots of variations out there. Different manufacturers, different lots, different time periods.

Here's a picture that shows a couple. The cap-type with the acorn nut with nylon insert has a boss, and the capnut axially squeezes the nylon insert hopefully cinching down around the needle. It does not use the slit end on the spraybar.

The ST type has the slit end which you can see on the second from the left if you look closely. On the one shown, the slit is slightly over .020". As Dan said, sometimes the threads on the inside wear and the slit closes up. Reworking the slit allows you to use it a bit longer, but the brass is wearing on the ID.

I had a batch of the NVAs shown on the right and about half of them were missing the outlet hole. Kinda mighta prolly made the engine run lean, maybe? But real good fuel economy, right?

Dave