Cost Effective Source of Foam Wings

[Steve Berry]

Who is the most cost effective source for foam wing cores? I've got a few ideas that I'm kicking around and would like to start pricing a few things out.

Simple wing - 36" span, 7"-7.25" root chord (haven't decided), high point at 30%, thickness 20%, fully elliptical leading edge profile.

The panel would need a rounded leading edge instead of the flat front so that the sheeting can be wrapped around leading edge. Two panels preferable to a single panel so that a bellcrank can be installed. Needs to be cored and have a slot for a full depth spar cut, as well.

Ideally, I'd like to get it around $20/set, after the setup charge.

Steve

[Brent Williams]

Phil Cartier at the Corehouse can do it for you.

[RandySmith]

Phil Cartier at the Corehouse can do it for you.

Phil can cut a  fully  elliptical foam  leading edge shape ?

Randy

[Steve Berry]

Phil can cut a  fully  elliptical foam  leading edge shape ?

Randy

Elliptical profile. Straight, no taper wing.

[Howard Rush]

Phil can cut a  fully  elliptical foam  leading edge shape ?

Sure. He has a computer-operated cutter.  No templates required. 

If you're making a custom wing, though, why not use a good airfoil?  It should be the same price.

[EddyR]

   $20 a set.     

[John Lindberg]

Bob Hunt has excellent foam cores! 

[Fredvon4]

Phil and Bob are good control line sources but there are dozens of foam cutters in the rc world

I would first call Phil Cartier.....this description has lots of ways to skin the cat...pun intended

[Gerald Arana]

Thanks for the kudos, John; I appreciate it.

Just a comment here: Eddy R. displayed the banging his head against a wall icon in reference to the $20.00 a set number. Does he think that number exorbitant? Perhaps he doesn't know what goes into making a high quality foam wing core. First there is the years of knowledge and experience required to cut foam accurately. The foam itself is extremely important; it must be a virgin bead expanded polystyrene. Why is virgin bead so important? Most foams that you can buy at lumber yards and large box stores is made with regrind foam. That type of foam is made up of some virgin bead material and also a lot of old scrap foam that is ground up and fed into the mix. Regrind foam has a lot of hard spots in it, and those hard spots will cause the wire to hang up momentarily as it passes through the foam, leaving deep ridges and very irregular cuts. Only virgin bead foam will have consistent makeup. And, virgin bead foam cost a lot more than regrind foam.

The foam I get is all the highest quality, virgin bead foam available. It is molded in billets that are 35-inches thick (top to bottom), 48-inches wide (side to side) and 16-feet in length (end to end)  That size billet cost a lot. It is also something which must be cut into slabs from which foam blanks can be made with which to cut a foam core wing. Those slabs need to be stored, and that takes up a lot of space. I have a large shed in my back yard in which I keep a large supply of both 1 pound/cubic foot foam (for actual foam core wings), and 2 pound foam (for Lost-Foam fixture sets). 

The bench and work shop space required to produce high quality foam cores and covered foam wings is not trivial. A blanking bench is required, as is a cutting bench. And all the ancillary equipment with which to cut a wing core is needed. That includes several cutting bows, a "trapeze" from which to hang the cutting bow, an absolutely flat bench (the core will only be as accurate as the bench on which the blank for the core is weighted), high quality Nichrome resistance wire (typically 1.5 ohms per foot), and extremely accurate templates.

I've been cutting foam core wings commercially for more than 50 years, and wings produced by me have been used in models that have won more CL World and National Stunt Championships than those cut by all others COMBINED. I write this not to pat myself on the back, but to emphasize the amount of time in grade I have invested to do this correctly and well.

All of the above was written in an attempt to underscore just what goes into making a quality core or wing. All of us who cut foam commercially are professionals at it (well, at least most of us are...), and I feel we are entitled to make as much per hour as any other professional. Unfortunately, this is a "what the market will bear" market, and the market will only pay so much for a hobby item. That's okay; no one is holding a gun to our heads making us do this. It is our choice to serve this market. But, when someone feels that $20.00 for a set of cores is too much, well, it sort of gets me agitated.

Fortunately for me, there is a clientele worldwide that sees the value in a professionally cut and covered foam wing, and I have plenty of repeat work from around the globe.

I would suggest that Steve get in touch with Phil Cartier to get the cores he requires. Phil has a computer cutting setup and can produce beautiful cores at a reasonable - and fair - price.

Folks, one of the major problems we have, and have always had, is that our community does not seem to value the effort and experience that goes into producing quality items for our hobby/sport. And for that reason the major manufacturers have not even thought about making much stuff for us in quantity; they just can't make any money doing it. And we can't expect them to do it for nothing. The rest of the world seems to have come to the realization that quality stuff cost real dollars, and there are many manufacturers who are charging several thousand dollars for a completed plane, and they have backlogs of work for years to come. Until we begin to value those who produce high quality items for our use, and give them a living wage for their efforts, we can't complain about what we have available to us with which to enjoy our pastime.

Later - Bob Hunt           

Steve B. I was going to make a comment ($20 might buy the foam?) but Bob H. has said it without offending anyone (I think).

Back in the old days, I cut my own foam cores for glider (racing) competition and it is a chore to say the least. Getting Lt & Rt panels exactly the same is a neat trick-of-the-trade! And mine were never exactly prefect but good enough for the next mid-air! LOL! I wouldn't think of trying to sell something that wasn't perfect.

I'm always willing to learn something new. Keep up the good work Bob.

Cheers, Jerry

[EddyR]

 Bob you have it upside down. I thought the offer of $20 a set was someone who didn't have a clue as to foam wing cores prices. I will buy all your $20 cores. Your comments need to be addressed to the one who started the thread. I used balsa covered foam cores from you back  when you first started them.
Ed     

[Brett Buck]

That's okay; no one is holding a gun to our heads making us do this. It is our choice to serve this market. But, when someone feels that $20.00 for a set of cores is too much, well, it sort of gets me agitated.

  $20?!  Highway robbery, no wonder you bought the private jets,  the villa in Tuscany, and attend an endless string of Hollywood parties! Getting rich off us poor working men to support your jet-set lifestyle.

      Oy Gevalt!

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Gee Brett, I told you in confidence that you could use the jet whenever you needed it, and, heck, I did get you that new Ferrari...

     It was the wrong color!

      Brett

[Paul Walker]

     It was the wrong color!

      Brett

I guess it clashed with the Porsche!
He should have checked first.

[Brett Buck]

I guess it clashed with the Porsche!
He should have checked first.

    Who the hell even thinks of a metallic bronze Ferrari, anyway?

     Brett

[Fred Underwood]

It didn't come that way, he finished off the last of the bronze on your Ferrari so that he could change colors.

[Howard Rush]

Bob is right, but there’s another way to look at it.  You could consider making your own wings as part of the airplane-building hobby.  There’s some learning involved, but information is available, and Bob and others have been generous in sharing their “secrets”, e.g. the importance of using virgin foam.

[Brett Buck]

I just hope Larry is watching this thread, I want him to see I am not just resting on my laurels.

   Brett

[Larry Fernandez]

I just hope Larry is watching this thread, I want him to see I am not just resting on my laurels.

   Brett

I’ve known you long enough to know that you are not one to rest on your laurels.
I have noticed that since you took over the number one spot, you consistently distance yourself from the pack.
It’s as though the also rans have given up and thrown in the towel.
Keep up the good work buddy you are an inspiration to us all. And you’re not a bad flyer either.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Frank Imbriaco]

Howard is right; if you really want to be the "builder" of your model you should do all the work. This line of thinking goes back a long way. I remember someone suggesting long ago that to be the actual "builder of the model" you would need to smelt the metal with which to make an engine and then actually make it. Yeah, that's taking it a bit far, but it does illustrate the fact that there are items in our models that actually take some extraordinary skill to produce, and not everyone can make those items. I'm certainly not suggesting that a foam core wing requires "extraordinary" skill to make, but it does require an outlay in cash, learning (experience), and time. We allow engines/motors, control systems, hardware items, batteries/fuel, covering and paint to be purchased items under our BOM rules, and also foam core wings. It still takes considerable skill and experience to bring all those pieces together in an accurate, light, and good looking stunt model.

I'm more than happy to share any and all information about foam wing cutting with anyone who but asks. Actually, those who have asked for that information, and have received it, typically thank me and then opt to have me do the cutting and covering for them, because the learning curve - while not difficult - is steep and time consuming. Most just want to get a wing and get building. That's why I'm still in business after 51 years.

On another subject, why is bronze such a bad color, Brett? I've always liked the earth tones. My favorite sweat shirts are bronze and brown in order. I've seen bronze Corvettes, and I really like them. I think a bronze Ferrari would be totally cool, and certainly different ( I can see Enzo turning in his grave...). I have been painting my models red, white, and blue in recent years to show my support for Our Flag. Things have changed for the better in my opinion, so now I can go back to my earth tones, and my new stunt model will have an earth tone as the main trim color. Now here's a little known fact: none of my models have had bronze on them as a trim color. It has been copper and metallic brown over the years; never bronze! Perhaps I will rectify that this year. I've taken a lot of abuse over the years for my trim color choice. Heck, there was a joke going around years ago that I had my WC Gold Medal bronzed... Not true; I did that with the Silver Medal!

Later - Bob

         Suggest checking out the configuration tool on chevrolet.com. The new 2020 Vette looking mighty fine in the new Zeus Bronze Metallic !

[Paul Smith]

I searched the lumber yards and builders supplies for good sources of white foam.  My best find was back in Wichita Kansas.  There was a foam maker that "grew" foam in 8-foot cubes and cut it down to the customer's need with a mega-hot wire setup.  Those were the days, my friend.  All that was left to do was the actual airfoil.

I just made my own wings and never tried to sell them.  Considering the labor and material, I would charge MORE than $20. 

If you want to buy custom cut wings, your problem is finding a source & paying the freight, not minimizing the price.

[Steve Berry]

Thanks for replies everyone. I know that $20 per set is rather cheap. My main goal would be to simply keep the cost down. The idea I have is electric-powered ARFs that are sort of based on a slightly enlarged and "Fancherized" Akromaster (restyled, of course). I haven't been able to find anything like that in the market. A small, good flying electric ARF. My target price is neighborhood of $100-$120 (probably not realistic). The only thing close I've found is the electric Ringmaster that Brodak offers.

The idea is a simple foam wing sheeted with 20mil paper-based veneer with PSA (got that idea from Eric Rule), perhaps a foam core fuselage sheeted with the same veneer. I'm trying figure how to build it with a minimum of balsa, yet still be lightweight (not a pig), with good controls. I think I've even come up with a possible way to make it a take apart model. But for now, I'm simply kicking around ideas, trying to come up with a cost.

Steve

[Brent Williams]

Phil's cores end up around $20 per set of you buy them a few at a time.  Plan on spending around $60-80 bucks shipped for several sets of cores.  Good value. 

[Fredvon4]

r u serious that you have not heard of Tom Dixon UKIE 35 or 40....arf  or near ARF Phil Cartier  Rugged stunt trainer (RST)...both in 100 buck range.....not disparaging Bob Hunt's much more advanced products...but if training and low cost are priority...you have several options....hell a electric ARF Brodak Ringmaster is in your price range

[Howard Rush]

Not sheeting the wing with balsa makes the process much cheaper and easier. I’ve made hundreds
of those, mostly covered with low temperature film.  I get the sheeted ones from Bob.

[Steve Berry]

r u serious that you have not heard of Tom Dixon UKIE 35 or 40....arf  or near ARF Phil Cartier  Rugged stunt trainer (RST)...both in 100 buck range.....not disparaging Bob Hunt's much more advanced products...but if training and low cost are priority...you have several options....hell a electric ARF Brodak Ringmaster is in your price range

Fred, not only have I heard of them, I used to have a UKIE 35. What I'm looking for is something in the .15-.25 size range, a smaller plane. Not really meant to be a trainer, either. Just a quick building, low cost electric ARF in a size range that seems to have a void. Think Shark 402, or something similar. A cool little stunter that you can get in the air in just a couple of hours that will very easily fit into even small cars.

Bob, that is pretty much the type of plane that I'm talking about. Something small, yet fully capable. I'd love to be able to get one of those to try out, if you have any kind of kit or ARF or something available. I really think a smaller ARF will fill a need. I have a need for a plane like that, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

[Avaiojet]

No one mentioned John Duncan? John made the foam for this model and there's a bunch of it besides the tapered wings. Booms and verticals.

John followed my directions to a T using my supplied airfoil templates. A two stage process on the wings actually. He cut the wing halves and sent them back, I had to do some magic before I sent the halves back so he could hollow them out. And there's a vertical spar. Not you're typical stunt foam wing.

John Duncan is in the Vendor's Corner.

[dave siegler]

$20?  good luck.  Well shipping charges will be all of that.  Shipping based on volume   

Learn to cut your own.  I get a 4x8x 2 inch sheet for about $10.  that can make 8-10 wings. 

My cutting rig cost about $20. 

My time is a sunk cost already but It takes about 60 minutes to make a template
To block out and cores,  in 3hrs I can cut 10 cores.  So I am not selling cores fo $20. 

Ideally, I'd like to get it around $20/set, after the setup charge.

Steve

[Doug Moisuk]

Buy the best and only cry once. Bob Hunt's stuff is the best. Worth every penny.

[Fredvon4]

small in physical size or using an OS FP/LA 20,or 25 for power..??...again I come back to low cost, very easy Semi ARF  build, from RST Phil Cartier, or Tom Dixon UKIE 35...or low cost SIG twister...or Brodak electricity ringmaster

Os FP 20 or OS LA 25 "BBTU"  or Dirty Dan recipe if you hate Brett , apc 9x4, Hayes 3~4 0z clunk,

well I digress..If this is foreign to you...google can be your friend

[Steve Berry]

  Fred, none of that is foreign to me. I've been in control line for over 30 years (since I was a small boy). I spelled it out quite explicitly that I want a smaller plane. In the original post, I mentioned the SIG Acromaster as a comparison (lower end of the spectrum), then in my last post, the Shark 402 (upper end of the spectrum).

I'm quite familiar with the BBTU and I know it works well. I'm looking for an ELECTRIC ARF, though, not glow. Since there doesn't seem to be much out there in this size that is electric, at least as far as ARFs go, I'm looking to try to fill the void.

[Dennis Moritz]

Whatever Bob does yields fantastic quality. Other stuff might be functional or good. Bob’s stuff is better. Lighter, perfectly fitted, excellently engineered. I’ve seen and bought other stuff. Will use it. Bob sells works of art. (IMHO)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dave siegler]

Bob, 2 questions
1) is there a spar jointer in the center?   How is the joint strengthened? I have folded a few. 

2) Some run the spars like that and some run them on edge to get greater depth.  Any Comments?

Looks great!

Hi Steve:

If low cost and simplicity is the goal, why not try the idea I used on the Joe All Cadet and my test bed twin. I took a cut and sanded core and inlet both halves to accept a 3/8 x 1/8 - inch basswood strip on both top and bottom. These basswood strips ran straight from tip to tip, and were flush with the surface of the core on either side. To prevent "racking" (The movement of  the top basswood strip in opposition to the bottom strip under maneuvering loads) I positioned a few shear webs along the length of the basswood strips. The shear webs were flush with the bottom of the spar inlets. (The attached photos will probably help you to understand all this more easily.)

After the cores were joined wit the control system installed, I applied .2 ounce carbon mat using water-thinned Titebond II glue. The result was a very strong, light, and rigid wing at very little cost in money and time.

The Joe Mall Cadet was powered by an E-Flite Power 15 motor, and was full pattern capable.

Here are some photos...

Later - Bob

[Steve Berry]

Bob,

I'm really coming around on that Joe Nall plane. Can you provide a few specs? Wing span? Area? Is there a kit available or at least plans? It may be exactly what I'm looking for (no need to reinvent the wheel when it's already been done by someone better).

Steve

[Fredvon4]

dang it Steve I am reading you correctly.....both Tom Dixon and Phil Cartier have virtually worthless web sites...and both do a lot more than is known....by design....they are old retired farts like Bob Hunt....Bob can do what you want but he is OCD perfectionist , busy, and not inexpensive....his stuff is indeed worth every dollar
not to Say Tom D or Phil C are "cut corners" cheap....they just supply basic cores that you must finish

you pick a wing profile you like and several guys can scale it up or down and steere you to a workable fuse length and tail percent volume....much as the agreements or arguments on Sig Twister modifications....

sounds like I offended you...very sorry...I only seek to offend brain damaged uber liberals

[Steve Berry]

Fred,

It's all good. Just have some other stuff going on in life that's been irritating me lately, and it just sorta came out wrong. There's too few of us to risk pissing each other off. I apologize.

Steve

[Fredvon4]

no brother Steve you did not offend me in any way......zero apology needed nor expected...if any thing my sorry efforts to offer opinion or advice sux theese days  only have one finger typing and half brain working...


hell if I wasn't all messed up I might could be talked into whacking off a few inches of wing and tail of a Phil Cartier RST and hang a OS LA 15 or Enya 15 on the nose

[Brent Williams]

@Bob Hunt: a few questions regarding the shear webs.
1. How many shear webs per panel?
2. Dimensions and grain orientation of shear webs?

[Fredvon4]

Dear brother Bob, I meant no offense...you attention to detail; be it guitar finishing and playing, or perfection aircraft structures, or world class twin engine stunt planes, speak for your craft n skills...my use of OCD was sincerely meant as a compliment and term of endearment...mega apology kind sir

[dave siegler]

Bob is very good at cutting foam.  Cutting foam isn't hard, cutting foam with repeatable reliable results is difficult. 

I cut foam, but I toss out about 1 out of every 5 panels I cut.     

There are so many small variables that can make by problem in the cut.  Bob seems to have a  grip on all of them.   

[phil c]

Steve-  I can cut something like you want.  A couple of points though-  a 7.5in. chord is only going to be about 1.25-1.5in. thick.  There is very little room to core it out without losing most of the strength of the foam.  Very little weight, probably no more than 10g per panel.  I won't take the time to try and core such a small wing out manually.  Drilling leadout holes also takes extra time on a thin wing- $5 set.  Box of 4 sets with no coring or leadout holes is $40 with most of the full depth spar, slotted in to the width you want, from top and bottom.  Panels 24 in.

It would be possible to do the front and rear(hollowed from the spar) as separate pieces.  Setting that up will take some time if there are no problems.  $45, plus $10/day if there are problems.

The picture shows an example of a core I have cut- kinda the opposite of what you are looking for-  60in span, 15in. x 2.5in root chord, some 700 square inches. Finished profile plane was 49 ounces with an LA46