Correct weight of the Nobler?

[Paul Taylor]

So I heard that George would paint a Nobler and if it did not weigh 42oz he would add more paint.

Anyone else ever heard that story B4?

[Brett Buck]

So I heard that George would paint a Nobler and if it did not weigh 42oz he would add more paint.

Anyone else ever heard that story B4?

   Yes, from George Aldrich. I think he was referring to the "Stunting Can Be Smooth" version, which has a lot more elevator than flap motion.

   It's even more that way with the Green Box or any other version that has 1:1 controls. To light and you will *never* be able to deflect the controls enough to do decent corners.

     Brett

[Allen Brickhaus]

Always add an adjustable elevator pushrod and horn.  That should solve your needs.

Allen

[PJ Rowland]

Brett goes on about this time after time.....

I cannot say this enough : Weight has nothing to do with it.

We live in an age where engine power is almost limitless - these designs fly better with more power and more weight.

My original '51 .61 was 53 oz - The '68 .61 was 54 oz

Of course if your going to build it with the intention of a Veco .29 then I wouldnt go much higher than 45..
The key really is the performance of the engine.. the airframe / wing will lift more weight with ease and in almost everycase it will perform better as a result.

See the Fancher/Ruffy conversation

[Dan McEntee]

   Yeah, there was a discussion about the possibility of a model being too light. Search Ted Fancher on the list here and I'll bet you find it. Every airfoil has an optimum wing loading that it will penetrate the best at. The only way to find that in the average person's world is trial and error. In the before mentioned discussion it was about a (I think) Nobler that wasn't performing as expected and then some stick on weight was added to the balance point and it woke up the flight performance of the airplane. I think a model can be built too light sometimes, all though I don't think I'll ever experience that personally !!!
  Type at you later,
   Dan  McEntee

[Valentin Apostolov]

So I heard that George would paint a Nobler and if it did not weigh 42oz he would add more paint.

Anyone else ever heard that story B4?

According me the weight has to be in combination with the total surface area. This is the load p/sq dcm.
Mine is 43. but with a little bigger wing surface and more deflected elevator. As far as the airfoil concerns usually do not forget each one is working at a certain speed /Reynolds/. If the model is more heavy use longer lines and more speed. Than the angkle speed for a corner is the same. Thanks

V Apostolov
 

[RandySmith]

Brett goes on about this time after time.....

I cannot say this enough : Weight has nothing to do with it.

We live in an age where engine power is almost limitless - these designs fly better with more power and more weight.

My original '51 .61 was 53 oz - The '68 .61 was 54 oz

Of course if your going to build it with the intention of a Veco .29 then I wouldnt go much higher than 45..
The key really is the performance of the engine.. the airframe / wing will lift more weight with ease and in almost everycase it will perform better as a result.

See the Fancher/Ruffy conversation

I would take issue with that to a point, I had many Noblers and flew even many more, Mine at 43 ounces 1 to 1 turned flat and hard, I have a friend who had one at 38 ounces that turned pretty tight.
I have also flown ones at over 50 ounces that dropped in the corners, and stalled at points with powerful motors.
Now these were stock Noblers, not expanded as many I see today are.

Also the BIG problem with adjustable elevator horns..besides they break or slip often is... You will have to make teh control throws even quicker when you add elevator, to try to take away flap travel. YOu are better off either trimming the flaps down if TOO light, which is what Brett was eluding to, or even better, It is much better to make the flap horn adjustable, rather than the elevator, that way if you need to slow the flaps, you can slide the elevator are upwards.

Randy

[Jim Hoffman]

The 40 oz Nobler is the standard from the Fox 35 era.  We now have more power available.

I have a Green Box Nobler w/ an Aerotiger 36.  It started life at about 41 oz.  I found that an additional 3 oz. added to the CG aided line tension and penetration with no detrimental effects.  i.e. no stalling in hard corners.

I have not tried adding more weight beyond the current 44 oz.

I hope this serves as a useful data point.


Jim Hoffman

[RandySmith]

The 40 oz Nobler is the standard from the Fox 35 era.  We now have more power available.

I have a Green Box Nobler w/ an Aerotiger 36.  It started life at about 41 oz.  I found that an additional 3 oz. added to the CG aided line tension and penetration with no detrimental effects.  i.e. no stalling in hard corners.

I have not tried adding more weight beyond the current 44 oz.

I hope this serves as a useful data point.


Jim Hoffman

Jim  try adding 13 ounces of lead on the CG  to make it 54 ounces, and tell us how the  corners are? and how much it drops in the turns in summer time

Randy

[Brett Buck]

Jim  try adding 13 ounces of lead on the CG  to make it 54 ounces, and tell us how the  corners are? and how much it drops in the turns in summer time

Randy

   We took a Tucker Special and added about 8 ounces to take it from 38 to 46 and the corner got MUCH better, dramatically so. Only reason we stopped at 8 was because we ran out of stick-on weights. And it could be flown much more slowly.

     Having all that flap doesn't do you any good if you can't deflect it, and if you can't deflect the flap, you can't deflect the elevator.

    Brett

[RandySmith]

  We took a Tucker Special and added about 8 ounces to take it from 38 to 46 and the corner got MUCH better, dramatically so. Only reason we stopped at 8 was because we ran out of stick-on weights. And it could be flown much more slowly.

     Having all that flap doesn't do you any good if you can't deflect it, and if you can't deflect the flap, you can't deflect the elevator.

    Brett

BIG difference adding 8 ounces to a 38 plane and adding 13 to a 43 ounce plane...Apples and watermelons... :-)

Brett  maybe you should look at one of Windy;s  Cast Iron bellcranks !!    But seriously,  I remember what you and Ted did with the Tucker, I wasn't shooting at that test, that was an ultra light ship, although having done much the same, I would have cut down the flap area first, then adjust weight, but at  38 ounces that is an exceptionally light plane.

I guess this just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat !  
But back to the Nobler, I would do as I suggested  first.  .... ohhhh   If only  there was a way to fly George's  50 ounce  ship

[Randy Ryan]

George told me THE Nobler had originally been a different color and that he refinished it NAVY over the first finish. He said it weighted 56 oz. Now I certainly can't confirm or refute that, but that's what the man told me.

[EddyR]

I stood in line in front of GMA at the 1957 Nat's processing line. I was holding Jerry Hickeys plane a bubble canopy Nobler.  I held Georges plane as he checked out Jerry's plane. It did not seem any heavier than Jerry's. Jerry's plane was the same as mine at 41-42 ounces. We thought 42 ounces was heavy at the time.Many Noblers weighed 38-39 ounces. Jerry's plane was the pre-release kit of the Nobler that was sent to dealers before the kit release. George commented that Jerry's plane was the best looking Nobler he had ever seen. The pre-release kit was slightly different than the stock 57 Nobler green box kit. The rudder and the cowl was different.
Ed

[PJ Rowland]

Randy :
" Try adding 13 ounces of lead on the CG  to make it 54 ounces, and tell us how the  corners are? and how much it drops in the turns in summer time

Bolt a bigger engine in it then..

Probably still wont be any good best you could hope for would be to qualify Top 20 in Open at the Nats....

[EddyR]

The 1968 Nobler by Bob G will carry a lot more weight than the 57 Nobler. Back in 1987 and 1988 I ran ST/46 motors in them and they flew well at 50 ounces. The last one had a larger tail at 25% and it flew as good as anything I had at the time. They were a lot more fun to fly than the 35 powered versions. Here is the last one.

[Chris Brainard]

Our field is 6,000 feet above sea level. We don't intentionally add extra weight. People used to flying at lower elevations, especially if they have a heavy plane, often are unpleasantly surprised on their first pull out. The airplane rotates OK, it just doesn't stop dropping immediately. When I fly in Tucson, I'm always amazed at how much power the engine is putting out. It takes several flights before my pullouts are below 10 feet. A Nobler at 50 oz. is too heavy here.
Chris

[john e. holliday]

I was coached by Rusty the few years I attended the Denver contests.   Quite a difference between 900+ feet and 5000+ feet.