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Author Topic: Control line model design parameters  (Read 4477 times)

Offline Dave vanEck

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Control line model design parameters
« on: November 24, 2021, 01:03:28 PM »
Hi – I’m new here and found this site while looking to verify some factors in control line flying.
My apologies to the long post.
The last time I flew, was when I was 15 (50 years ago), and life got in the way between then and now.
Usually, back then, I managed to crash everything I built, relatively quickly.
Partly this was because there was no flying club anywhere near me (350 miles away) and partly because I didn’t even understand that a model needed to be balanced on the CG point.
As I would like to start flying again, I decided this time to research information first before building a model.
As kits for control line are virtually non-existent, I searched for plans and came across a few at a site called “Aerofred" plans. These are mostly a collection of plans from old magazines and often there is missing information which means I will have to make assumptions or take information from one plan to complete another.
Looking though this forum, it seems there are several knowledgeable and experienced members and I am hoping to have a few questions answered / confirm my assumptions.
1.   Sometimes, not always?, a rudder and an engine offset is applied – I presume this is to keep the lines tight when influenced by wind and compensate for the yaw caused by the dragging control wires?
2.   A weight (1/2 ounce) is placed on the outboard wingtip – I presume this is to compensate for the weight of the control lines? – why only ½ ounce?
3.   The outboard wing is often slightly shorter than the inboard wing - as found elsewhere on this forum – this is because there is more lift on the outer wing as the wing is further out – presumably this would vary with the model wingspan and the length of the control lines?.
4.   The bell-crank can be placed anywhere in the wing are long as it’s on a structurally sound point and pushrods are kept relatively short?.
5.   Bell-crank size: This varies between 2” and 4” – not sure why. Surely all that matters is the pushrod arm movement and this arm could be made as long as necessary? Is there a reason to use 4” instead of 2”? (Will make my own from printed circuit board fiberglass as I read somewhere that is strong enough).
6.   Elevator control horns are sometimes on the top surface and sometimes on the bottom surface. This seems weird to me as you will have to fit your control handle with “up” to the rear for a control horn on the bottom surface and “up” to the front for a top mounted horn. (Seems dangerous, as you would have to check each time what is “up”, if you have several models)
7.   Control line leadout: This is stressed as being important, but seems to vary greatly.
If 10 people make a suggestion, there are usually 10 opinions.
I have seen the suggestion that you hang the model vertically and set the wire angle when the model is balanced, but this makes no sense. If your bellcrank is located at the cg point then the wires would be at right angles to the fuselage.
Owing to air resistance, the control lines will be always be slightly dragging behind the model, so it would make sense to takes these out at an angle to the rear, but sometimes (in the plans), the rear wire is perpendicular to the fuselage and the forward wire brought back close to the rear wire??, sometimes the rear wire is brought slightly forward and the front wire is brought back to about 0.5” between them.
Are the wires brought together because the lines will be close anyway when coming into the wingtip?
Why not bring both control wires out to the rear and split them to the top and bottom of the wingtip in that case?
8.   What should the elevator travel be – some plans indicate 45 deg and some do not define this.
9.   Is there any reason why an RC glow engine can’t be used in control line? – it would seem to be simple enough to arrange a clamped rod to control the engine revs.
I do not need to build a model for competition (still no clubs around) but would like to build a first model that is as stable as possible.

Offline John Rist

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2021, 01:30:25 PM »
First of all there are lots of kits available.  Brodak is the prime source for most any thing you need for Control line.  https://brodak.com/   Another big one is RSM  https://www.rsmdistribution.com/index.php.  You might want to look into Electric if you don't have glow engines in hand.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2021, 01:48:48 PM »
I am somewhat familiar with combat and stunt models, although my experience with combat models isn't up to date.  I'll try to answer your questions. Good questions, by the way.

1. Yes, but nowadays they are used to address more esoteric dynamics issues.  Generally, rudder offset does more harm than good.  I use 2 degrees of motor offset in electric stunt planes, zero to 1 degree engine offset in acoustic stunt planes and zero to maybe 3  degrees in combat planes.

2. Use what you need. Start with too much and remove it until you get the right amount. Any generalized tip weight calculation you see is likely bogus.  Here is how to trim an otherwise airworthy airplane: http://flyinglines.org/pw.trimflow1.html .

3. Yes and yes.  Here is a short monograph on how it varies: https://stunthanger.com/smf/stunt-design/unequal-semi-span-wings/msg590122/#msg590122 , see reply #40.

4. Yes, but a) it should be near the CG to keep the lines from having to go around a steep angle at the wing tip, and b) don't worry about keeping pushrods short. Use carbon tube pushrods to make them stiff enough.

5. The bigger the bellcrank and the farther it moves, the more leverage you have over line springiness.  I can send you a spreadsheet to calculate control geometry for airplanes with flaps.  Gimme your email address.

6. You'll come up with a system.  Some use dabs of paint.   Combat planes have control horns on the top so they won't snag on the grass.  Stunt plane leadout assignment is usually made to help compensate for gyroscopic effects of rotating machinery.

7. Leadout position at the wing tip?  http://www.tulsacl.com/Linelll.html will get you close.  Then use the Walker process.

8. Only as much as you need.  Otherwise you will sacrifice the aforementioned leverage.  There's no general answer, but maybe 15 degrees for combat planes, 30 degrees for stunt planes.

9.  No.  Most folks use fixed inlets, though.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline pat king

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2021, 01:50:45 PM »
I offer over 200 different Control Line laser cut kits. Airplanes for engines .010 to 1.20, wingspans from 10 1/2" to 84", wing areas up 2053 square inches. Send an Email to: patdk@aol.com for a list emailed to you. Ask and I'll send small .pdf files of any of the plans. I sell full size .pdf files of all my airplane plans for $5.00 per set. All my airplane plans have all parts shown full size.

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Offline John Rist

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2021, 02:00:59 PM »
1.   Sometimes, not always?, a rudder and an engine offset is applied – I presume this is to keep the lines tight when influenced by wind and compensate for the yaw caused by the dragging control wires? This is primarily to keep line tight at all time and all conditions.
2.   A weight (1/2 ounce) is placed on the outboard wingtip – I presume this is to compensate for the weight of the control lines? – why only ½ ounce?  Yes.  However most modern stunt models have a weight box.  as part of the trim process we adjust the weight to get the wings level in flight upright and inverted.  Wings not level could be a warp and is fixed with a trim tab.
3.   The outboard wing is often slightly shorter than the inboard wing - as found elsewhere on this forum – this is because there is more lift on the outer wing as the wing is further out – presumably this would vary with the model wingspan and the length of the control lines?.  No.  A longer inboard wing has more lift to help support the weight of the lines.
4.   The bell-crank can be placed anywhere in the wing are long as it’s on a structurally sound point and pushrods are kept relatively short?. Yes.
5.   Bell-crank size: This varies between 2” and 4” – not sure why. Surely all that matters is the pushrod arm movement and this arm could be made as long as necessary? Is there a reason to use 4” instead of 2”? (Will make my own from printed circuit board fiberglass as I read somewhere that is strong enough).  Bell-crank size is part of the combination of line spacing on the handle.  If it radically too big or too small it makes it hard to adjust handle line spacing to get a required control response feel.
6.   Elevator control horns are sometimes on the top surface and sometimes on the bottom surface. This seems weird to me as you will have to fit your control handle with “up” to the rear for a control horn on the bottom surface and “up” to the front for a top mounted horn. (Seems dangerous, as you would have to check each time what is “up”, if you have several models) No.  All that matters is that you know which of the lead out is up and which is down.  I mark mine red for up and black for down.  ALWAYS check up-down at the handle every time you hook up a set of lines.
7.   Control line leadout: This is stressed as being important, but seems to vary greatly.
If 10 people make a suggestion, there are usually 10 opinions.  True.  The important thing is to size them a little bigger than to size of the flying lines. As flying lines age you can replace them.  Lead outs need to be robust enough to last the life of the model.   
I have seen the suggestion that you hang the model vertically and set the wire angle when the model is balanced, but this makes no sense. If your bellcrank is located at the cg point then the wires would be at right angles to the fuselage.
Owing to air resistance, the control lines will be always be slightly dragging behind the model, so it would make sense to takes these out at an angle to the rear, but sometimes (in the plans), the rear wire is perpendicular to the fuselage and the forward wire brought back close to the rear wire??, sometimes the rear wire is brought slightly forward and the front wire is brought back to about 0.5” between them.
Are the wires brought together because the lines will be close anyway when coming into the wingtip?
Why not bring both control wires out to the rear and split them to the top and bottom of the wingtip in that case?  ????  The location of the bell-crank doesn't matter.  What matters is the exit point of the lines out the wing tip.  Most modern stunt ship have adjustable lead outs.  The lead outs are adjusted to get good line tension during level flight and overhead flight.
8.   What should the elevator travel be – some plans indicate 45 deg and some do not define this.  Go with what is suggested on the plans.  In truth it takes less travel to control an airplane than to think.
9.   Is there any reason why an RC glow engine can’t be used in control line? – it would seem to be simple enough to arrange a clamped rod to control the engine revs.  Yes.  I have done this.  However a control line ventury weighs less than than an RC carb.  I am not an engine expert but I am told that the internal timing of an RC engine is different then the inturnal timing of a control-line engine.  I fly all electric.
I do not need to build a model for competition (still no clubs around) but would like to build a first model that is as stable as possible.

PS where are you located?
John Rist
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2021, 02:19:29 PM »

Hi – I’m new here and found this site while looking to verify some factors in control line flying.


Dave,

Pay attention to Howard Rush and heed his advice.  He was a top combat flyer several years ago at the National and International level.  For the past several years, he has become an excellent stunt flyer, placing well at the Nats, has been on the US stunt team at the World Championships and is a current member of the stunt team at the next World Championships.  He has many of his own ideas while at the same time drawing on the experience/expertise of what is affectionately known as the West Coast Cabal which represents more than 25 National Championships and several World Champions.

Keith

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2021, 02:36:17 PM »
Dave,
Welcome to control line. Things have changed a bit from 65 years ago but not unrecognizable. First, as John said Brodak is a source to control line kits and accessories also RSM and a few others. For plans go to: https://outerzone.co.uk/browse_plans/index.asp , look in the CL Sport section, there are thousands of plans of all sizes. A good place to start would be with a Flite Streak ARF from Brodak with a current day OS FP25 or Brodak 25. If you flew RC you can use the RC engine it is just that the carb adds extra weight and is not a steady an engine run as we like in Stunt, but for a first shot if it runs good in RC it will work ok on a profile ship like the Flite Streak.

Going through your points, all good until number 5 on bellcrank size. The reason for the 4" is to give smoother controls and for stunt added input leverage during high tight maneuvers. It gives a much better control input particularly for your first ship. As you get into stunt you will understand the additional benefits of this arrangement. For now go with the 4" bellcrank.

Point 6: most guys install their flap horns on top and the elevator horn on the bottom. For a non-flapped ship like the Flite Streak the horn is usually installed on the bottom of the elevator for cleaner looks. It will work on top but is more difficult to connect the pushrod. For now suggest you go with the bottom install.

Point 7: control leadouts - this is what controls the yaw and roll position of a control line airplane, not the location of the bellcrank. There has been much discussion on the location of the leadouts controls. They are brought out to the tip and spaced about 3/4" to 1" apart and the center between them is located 3/8" behind the CG of the airplane. This allows for the line drag and slight bowing that the lines take up and allows the leadouts to operate smoothly almost straight in line with the flight line while in flight.

No 8: elevator travel about 30 - 35 deg is more than enough. You want to set the controls about the same distance from the pivot line to pushrod connection hole as from the bellcrank bolt to the pushrod hole in the bellcrank.

This should get you started, it is not rocket science but certain things have developed through the years that just work and don't always have a lot of logic behind it. At this point start with what works then as you get more familiar with this part of the hobby you can experiment with you own ideas. Things in stunt don't change quickly as people invest a lot of time building and finishing models and don't have a lot of extra time to trying new things like when we were teenagers.

Good luck and keep posting.

Best,     DennisT
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 07:00:58 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2021, 09:55:33 PM »
3.   The outboard wing is often slightly shorter than the inboard wing - as found elsewhere on this forum – this is because there is more lift on the outer wing as the wing is further out – presumably this would vary with the model wingspan and the length of the control lines?.  No.  A longer inboard wing has more lift to help support the weight of the lines.

It does vary as Dave suspects and as I showed in the referenced short monograph, but you are correct that some of the tip weight also supports the line weight.  Attached is a picture showing how.  The upchuck of both is that one just starts with a lot of tip weight (modeling clay or Plasticine, depending on which side of the road you drive) and removes it gradually, using Paul Walker's trim process as a guide.

Tip weight needed is also probably a function of sideslip and airplane configuration.  Just experiment.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2021, 05:35:21 AM »
And your location is??
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2021, 09:15:05 AM »
It does vary as Dave suspects and as I showed in the referenced short monograph, but you are correct that some of the tip weight also supports the line weight.  Attached is a picture showing how.  The upchuck of both is that one just starts with a lot of tip weight (modeling clay or Plasticine, depending on which side of the road you drive) and removes it gradually, using Paul Walker's trim process as a guide.

Tip weight needed is also probably a function of sideslip and airplane configuration.  Just experiment.

Nice graphs.. Seems counter intuitive though. Can you share the derivation? I was just thinking about sitting down and doing the derivation as it seems Wild Bills website is gone and the information is behind the PAMPA pay wall. Life as a CAB is tough. Or maybe I hadn't found it yet.

Find a shot gun re-loader and get some scrap shot from them. I have fifty ish pounds of shot that's mixed cast offs from people who would bring in to our shop.
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2021, 10:13:44 AM »
Here are my thoughts on several of the items:

1) engine offset - it helps but many of the models I fly have zero offset

2) Rudder offset - Not required, in fact I have several models without any rudder at all

3) Leadout guide position is very important - Draw a line from the handle, thru the leadout guide to the CG of the model. The amount of line rake will determine how much line tension you get. But, yes you are right put the bellcrank in a good spot in the fuselage or wing, the position of the bellcrank does not affect the line tension. If the line guide is too high or low compared to the CG it will affect how level the wings are in flight. move the guide aft to increase the line tension, move it forward to reduce the line tension.

4) If you want to add throttle control get a 2.4 Ghz radio and use a receiver, battery and a servo to control the engine speed. You can also go electric and use an ESC plugged into the receiver. Contact me if anyone needs assistance on how to set this up on a CL model. With throttle control you can land anytime you want and shut down the motor/engine.

5) If the model weighs less than 20 lbs you can make it fly as a CL model. The wing span does not matter, but with the larger models you will need an adjustable line guide to keep the line tension within reason. And also have throttle control to keep the speed within limits.

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Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2021, 07:38:04 AM »
First of all there are lots of kits available.  Brodak is the prime source for most any thing you need for Control line.  https://brodak.com/   Another big one is RSM  https://www.rsmdistribution.com/index.php.  You might want to look into Electric if you don't have glow engines in hand.

I apologize if this ends up in the wrong place but still having difficulties about navigating thru the site.
I wanted to do a general reply to thank everyone for their responses.
I also would like to apologize for my late reply as everyone kindly responded quickly.
I unfortunately live in an outlying area and recently we have been plagued by power and internet failures.

I live in South Africa and control line has all but disappeared.
I found a single model shop offering a single model, called a ringmaster (also only one in stock) in the entire country.
I have ordered the kit, but I also enjoyed building the models, so was looking to build from plans.


Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2021, 07:45:05 AM »
I am somewhat familiar with combat and stunt models, although my experience with combat models isn't up to date.  I'll try to answer your questions. Good questions, by the way.

1. Yes, but nowadays they are used to address more esoteric dynamics issues.  Generally, rudder offset does more harm than good.  I use 2 degrees of motor offset in electric stunt planes, zero to 1 degree engine offset in acoustic stunt planes and zero to maybe 3  degrees in combat planes.

2. Use what you need. Start with too much and remove it until you get the right amount. Any generalized tip weight calculation you see is likely bogus.  Here is how to trim an otherwise airworthy airplane: http://flyinglines.org/pw.trimflow1.html .

3. Yes and yes.  Here is a short monograph on how it varies: https://stunthanger.com/smf/stunt-design/unequal-semi-span-wings/msg590122/#msg590122 , see reply #40.

4. Yes, but a) it should be near the CG to keep the lines from having to go around a steep angle at the wing tip, and b) don't worry about keeping pushrods short. Use carbon tube pushrods to make them stiff enough.

5. The bigger the bellcrank and the farther it moves, the more leverage you have over line springiness.  I can send you a spreadsheet to calculate control geometry for airplanes with flaps.  Gimme your email address.

6. You'll come up with a system.  Some use dabs of paint.   Combat planes have control horns on the top so they won't snag on the grass.  Stunt plane leadout assignment is usually made to help compensate for gyroscopic effects of rotating machinery.

7. Leadout position at the wing tip?  http://www.tulsacl.com/Linelll.html will get you close.  Then use the Walker process.

8. Only as much as you need.  Otherwise you will sacrifice the aforementioned leverage.  There's no general answer, but maybe 15 degrees for combat planes, 30 degrees for stunt planes.

9.  No.  Most folks use fixed inlets, though.

Thank you very much for the information - much appreciated, and thank you for the links.
Specifically for item 5 - at last I understand why.
My email address is dave@coltron.co.za.


Offline Mark wood

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2021, 07:51:51 AM »
I apologize if this ends up in the wrong place but still having difficulties about navigating thru the site.
I wanted to do a general reply to thank everyone for their responses.
I also would like to apologize for my late reply as everyone kindly responded quickly.
I unfortunately live in an outlying area and recently we have been plagued by power and internet failures.

I live in South Africa and control line has all but disappeared.
I found a single model shop offering a single model, called a ringmaster (also only one in stock) in the entire country.
I have ordered the kit, but I also enjoyed building the models, so was looking to build from plans.

The Ringmaster is a great airplane. Better, you can participate next year when the global Ringmaster flyathon occurs.

Life is good AMA 1488
Why do we fly? We are practicing, you might say, what it means to be alive...  -Richard Bach
“Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that’s not why we do it.” – Richard P. Feynman

Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2021, 07:53:33 AM »
I offer over 200 different Control Line laser cut kits. Airplanes for engines .010 to 1.20, wingspans from 10 1/2" to 84", wing areas up 2053 square inches. Send an Email to: patdk@aol.com for a list emailed to you. Ask and I'll send small .pdf files of any of the plans. I sell full size .pdf files of all my airplane plans for $5.00 per set. All my airplane plans have all parts shown full size.

Pat
PDK LLC
Pat King
patdk@aol.com
708-921-6322

Thank you Pat.
Unfortunately, living in South Africa, most kits from the States work out ridiculous expensive owing to the freight costs.
I will have a look at the plans - thank you.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2021, 08:08:39 AM »
Dave,
What building materials do you have access too? If balsa wood is hard to get people have been working with various foam materials (works great with electric's) materials, Depron is a foam sheet (2mm) that could be used as sheeting with balsa or spruce spars. For covering there is material called Doctor paper which is the stuff they put on the exam chair, it works like silkspan.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2021, 08:18:42 AM »
1.   Sometimes, not always?, a rudder and an engine offset is applied – I presume this is to keep the lines tight when influenced by wind and compensate for the yaw caused by the dragging control wires? This is primarily to keep line tight at all time and all conditions.
2.   A weight (1/2 ounce) is placed on the outboard wingtip – I presume this is to compensate for the weight of the control lines? – why only ½ ounce?  Yes.  However most modern stunt models have a weight box.  as part of the trim process we adjust the weight to get the wings level in flight upright and inverted.  Wings not level could be a warp and is fixed with a trim tab.
3.   The outboard wing is often slightly shorter than the inboard wing - as found elsewhere on this forum – this is because there is more lift on the outer wing as the wing is further out – presumably this would vary with the model wingspan and the length of the control lines?.  No.  A longer inboard wing has more lift to help support the weight of the lines.
4.   The bell-crank can be placed anywhere in the wing are long as it’s on a structurally sound point and pushrods are kept relatively short?. Yes.
5.   Bell-crank size: This varies between 2” and 4” – not sure why. Surely all that matters is the pushrod arm movement and this arm could be made as long as necessary? Is there a reason to use 4” instead of 2”? (Will make my own from printed circuit board fiberglass as I read somewhere that is strong enough).  Bell-crank size is part of the combination of line spacing on the handle.  If it radically too big or too small it makes it hard to adjust handle line spacing to get a required control response feel.
6.   Elevator control horns are sometimes on the top surface and sometimes on the bottom surface. This seems weird to me as you will have to fit your control handle with “up” to the rear for a control horn on the bottom surface and “up” to the front for a top mounted horn. (Seems dangerous, as you would have to check each time what is “up”, if you have several models) No.  All that matters is that you know which of the lead out is up and which is down.  I mark mine red for up and black for down.  ALWAYS check up-down at the handle every time you hook up a set of lines.
7.   Control line leadout: This is stressed as being important, but seems to vary greatly.
If 10 people make a suggestion, there are usually 10 opinions.  True.  The important thing is to size them a little bigger than to size of the flying lines. As flying lines age you can replace them.  Lead outs need to be robust enough to last the life of the model.   
I have seen the suggestion that you hang the model vertically and set the wire angle when the model is balanced, but this makes no sense. If your bellcrank is located at the cg point then the wires would be at right angles to the fuselage.
Owing to air resistance, the control lines will be always be slightly dragging behind the model, so it would make sense to takes these out at an angle to the rear, but sometimes (in the plans), the rear wire is perpendicular to the fuselage and the forward wire brought back close to the rear wire??, sometimes the rear wire is brought slightly forward and the front wire is brought back to about 0.5” between them.
Are the wires brought together because the lines will be close anyway when coming into the wingtip?
Why not bring both control wires out to the rear and split them to the top and bottom of the wingtip in that case?  ????  The location of the bell-crank doesn't matter.  What matters is the exit point of the lines out the wing tip.  Most modern stunt ship have adjustable lead outs.  The lead outs are adjusted to get good line tension during level flight and overhead flight.
8.   What should the elevator travel be – some plans indicate 45 deg and some do not define this.  Go with what is suggested on the plans.  In truth it takes less travel to control an airplane than to think.
9.   Is there any reason why an RC glow engine can’t be used in control line? – it would seem to be simple enough to arrange a clamped rod to control the engine revs.  Yes.  I have done this.  However a control line ventury weighs less than than an RC carb.  I am not an engine expert but I am told that the internal timing of an RC engine is different then the inturnal timing of a control-line engine.  I fly all electric.
I do not need to build a model for competition (still no clubs around) but would like to build a first model that is as stable as possible.

PS where are you located?


Hi John - I live in Pretoria,South Africa.
Thanks again for all the above information.
I enjoyed building the models from scratch as much as flying (probably because they all crashed!)
When I was young, the entire family (except my dad) were involved in control line flying and they flew scale, combat and stunt and even a few free flights
They of course used glow engines and I have a memory of the smell of the castor oil and methanol.
So everytime we visited, I used to attend the meets and competitions.
I bought a small RC model to learn to fly with, but the building part was missing and not nearly as much fun.
So I will use the information above and see how I do.

Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2021, 08:20:17 AM »
Dave,

Pay attention to Howard Rush and heed his advice.  He was a top combat flyer several years ago at the National and International level.  For the past several years, he has become an excellent stunt flyer, placing well at the Nats, has been on the US stunt team at the World Championships and is a current member of the stunt team at the next World Championships.  He has many of his own ideas while at the same time drawing on the experience/expertise of what is affectionately known as the West Coast Cabal which represents more than 25 National Championships and several World Champions.

Keith

Thank you for the advice Keith.

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2021, 08:32:31 AM »
Dave,
What building materials do you have access too? If balsa wood is hard to get people have been working with various foam materials (works great with electric's) materials, Depron is a foam sheet (2mm) that could be used as sheeting with balsa or spruce spars. For covering there is material called Doctor paper which is the stuff they put on the exam chair, it works like silkspan.

Best,   DennisT

Hi Dennis,

I have access to most building materials - balsa (maybe not in all grades) and foam and most RC parts.
Although drones and helicopters seem to be the flavour of the day, at this stage I can even get Monokote or equivalent.
Did find a source for silkspan but still trying to find a source of dope for stretching.
Luckily, one of the hobby shops that survived Wohan also had stock of control lines.
I will have to construct control handles but this should be simple enough.
Thank you for the advice regarding the Depron, I can also get that here.

Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2021, 08:44:09 AM »
Dave,
Welcome to control line. Things have changed a bit from 65 years ago but not unrecognizable. First, as John said Brodak is a source to control line kits and accessories also RSM and a few others. For plans go to: https://outerzone.co.uk/browse_plans/index.asp , look in the CL Sport section, there are thousands of plans of all sizes. A good place to start would be with a Flite Streak ARF from Brodak with a current day OS FP25 or Brodak 25. If you flew RC you can use the RC engine it is just that the carb adds extra weight and is not a steady an engine run as we like in Stunt, but for a first shot if it runs good in RC it will work ok on a profile ship like the Flite Streak.

Going through your points, all good until number 5 on bellcrank size. The reason for the 4" is to give smoother controls and for stunt added input leverage during high tight maneuvers. It gives a much better control input particularly for your first ship. As you get into stunt you will understand the additional benefits of this arrangement. For now go with the 4" bellcrank.

Point 6: most guys install their flap horns on top and the elevator horn on the bottom. For a non-flapped ship like the Flite Streak the horn is usually installed on the bottom of the elevator for cleaner looks. It will work on top but is more difficult to connect the pushrod. For now suggest you go with the bottom install.

Point 7: control leadouts - this is what controls the yaw and roll position of a control line airplane, not the location of the bellcrank. There has been much discussion on the location of the leadouts controls. They are brought out to the tip and spaced about 3/4" to 1" apart and the center between them is located 3/8" behind the CG of the airplane. This allows for the line drag and slight bowing that the lines take up and allows the leadouts to operate smoothly almost straight in line with the flight line while in flight.

No 8: elevator travel about 30 - 35 deg is more than enough. You want to set the controls about the same distance from the pivot line to pushrod connection hole as from the bellcrank bolt to the pushrod hole in the bellcrank.

This should get you started, it is not rocket science but certain things have developed through the years that just work and don't always have a lot of logic behind it. At this point start with what works then as you get more familiar with this part of the hobby you can experiment with you own ideas. Things in stunt don't change quickly as people invest a lot of time building and finishing models and don't have a lot of extra time to trying new things like when we were teenagers.

Good luck and keep posting.

Best,     DennisT
Thank you Dennis for the info.
I will check Outerzone for better plans.
It is good to know however why's of the designs.
The use of RC engines is mostly because that is all that is available, although I do have a "Torpedo 29" from 50 years ago which I will have to see if I can get running again.

Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2021, 08:48:44 AM »
It does vary as Dave suspects and as I showed in the referenced short monograph, but you are correct that some of the tip weight also supports the line weight.  Attached is a picture showing how.  The upchuck of both is that one just starts with a lot of tip weight (modeling clay or Plasticine, depending on which side of the road you drive) and removes it gradually, using Paul Walker's trim process as a guide.

Tip weight needed is also probably a function of sideslip and airplane configuration.  Just experiment.

Thanks Howard - I will use this and then experiment once I have the first model flying.

Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2021, 08:49:53 AM »
And your location is??

Hi Perry, Pretoria, South Africa.

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2021, 08:57:18 AM »
The Ringmaster is a great airplane. Better, you can participate next year when the global Ringmaster flyathon occurs.

Hi Mark - thanks for the info.
Hopefully by then I will be able to travel - with the latest round of covid19 we are currently banned from the USA and a lot of Europe.
Also hopefully I have learned to fly by then  :)

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2021, 09:22:48 AM »
Point 7: control leadouts - this is what controls the yaw and roll position of a control line airplane, not the location of the bellcrank. There has been much discussion on the location of the leadouts controls. They are brought out to the tip and spaced about 3/4" to 1" apart and the center between them is located 3/8" behind the CG of the airplane

I have used the "Line II" software several times to calculate lead-out-exit position and have always gotten a pretty good starting point for my adjustable leadouts. For my 40" - 52" span planes, that is usually 3/4" to 1" behind the c.g. I have found that sometimes moving the leadout exit fractionally forward helps line tension at higher altitudes (lines angled upward). Moving the leadout exits further back often, but not always, increases line tension throughout the hemisphere.

SK.

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2021, 12:51:22 PM »
Dave,
I understand the problem with shipping kits to other countries. If you are interested in any of my airplanes just ask for small files if the plans. If you like something the full size plan files are only US$5.00 per set and the shipping is free.

Pat
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2021, 02:00:36 PM »
My email address is dave@coltron.co.za.

My antivirus software, which seems to be up to date with omicron, says coltron is dangerous.  Got another address?  The program won't help you with a Ringmaster anyhow.  It only applies to airplanes with flaps.

Look up Keith Renecle in Johannesburg.  He's a nice bloke and world-famous stunt guy. 
The Jive Combat Team
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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2021, 05:18:28 PM »
Hi Mark - thanks for the info.
Hopefully by then I will be able to travel - with the latest round of covid19 we are currently banned from the USA and a lot of Europe.
Also hopefully I have learned to fly by then  :)

the ringmaster flython is a global event. People fly their Ringmasters from wherever they are on that weekend and all of the flights are recorded. Our club does it every year. You can participate from your local by simply flying on that day knowing that others are doing the same. Join in with the brotherhood so to speak.
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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2021, 08:26:57 PM »
WHAT SIZE engine do you have /

Some radio motors are excellent stunt motors , stock . some arnt . Mainly matching model weight , prop & intake bore . Some dogs a few simple mods make good .

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/crashworthy-craft/

Check out this load of trash .

A goodyear racer makes a good trainer ( with dual elevators ) and is durable and good for goodyear racing , later . With double the prop pitch then .

A plank ( 1/2 sht ) Fuselage job , you can start of with a plank wing , then throw a built up one in later .

Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2021, 01:54:46 AM »
My antivirus software, which seems to be up to date with omicron, says coltron is dangerous.  Got another address?  The program won't help you with a Ringmaster anyhow.  It only applies to airplanes with flaps.

Look up Keith Renecle in Johannesburg.  He's a nice bloke and world-famous stunt guy.
Hi Howard - please try dave.ve@fysatech.org.
Not sure why you would have an issue - but yes - perhaps it is omicron.
Sadly, our President called for everyone to reverse the isolation!! - but it is fully understood and exactly what I would have done.
Will contact Keith - Thank you.
As mentioned in the other posts - I was verifying why various standards exist because I want to make models from scratch.

Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2021, 03:48:17 AM »
WHAT SIZE engine do you have /

Some radio motors are excellent stunt motors , stock . some arnt . Mainly matching model weight , prop & intake bore . Some dogs a few simple mods make good .

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/crashworthy-craft/

Check out this load of trash .

A goodyear racer makes a good trainer ( with dual elevators ) and is durable and good for goodyear racing , later . With double the prop pitch then .


A plank ( 1/2 sht ) Fuselage job , you can start of with a plank wing , then throw a built up one in later .

Hi I currently have a .32 cu inch RC motor and an old Torpedo 29.
The .32" is an ASP and the Torpedo I will have to disassemble to clean it up after 50 years of being in a box.
Based on these two I was looking at models with a wingspan of 36 -40".


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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2021, 03:49:34 AM »
the ringmaster flython is a global event. People fly their Ringmasters from wherever they are on that weekend and all of the flights are recorded. Our club does it every year. You can participate from your local by simply flying on that day knowing that others are doing the same. Join in with the brotherhood so to speak.

Thanks - I will enquire about that. :)

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2021, 06:54:20 AM »
Hi I currently have a .32 cu inch RC motor and an old Torpedo 29.
The .32" is an ASP and the Torpedo I will have to disassemble to clean it up after 50 years of being in a box.
Based on these two I was looking at models with a wingspan of 36 -40".

    Hello Dave;

     The Torpedo .29 will be a good choice to get the Ringmaster off the ground.  The only issue will be the exhaust sticking up if it is mounted with the cylinder on the outboard side. You can mount the engine and tank on the inboard side to make the operation of the engine easier. As said, the International Ring-a-Thon is a global event and can actually last for a week or so depending on weather conditions where people fly, so they can get their flights in and have them added to the totals. Strictly for fun and to celebrate a great old design. The ASP .32 is more or less a clone of the OS.32 and makes a good stunt engine. It was designed initially I think, for helicopter use and they just changed the head for fixed wing operations. I have several in use on SIG Primary Force stunt models. If you are going to use it as it comes with a carb, just experiment with closing off the throttle to various settings. The carb had no spray bar through it like a restrictor C/L venturi would and it quite large in the wide open configuration. When you get a model built for it, something in the Nobler size range, start off with a 4 ounce tank and set the throttle to about 3/4, and use a 10-4 to 11-4 prop. It should run in the 9500 to 10,000 RPM ranges depending on your altitude and model weight. It should do the job well once you get settings figured out and established. If you can know someone that can machine a venturi for you, we can send you the dimensions for a standard restrictor venturi or a true venturi, which will be considerable smaller if you put the needle valve when the pinch bar goes that holds the carb in. Nothing super critical, just little details that need to be worked  out, but you would not be the first person to use the ASP .32. I have one that I will bolt on one day just to see how they run compared to the OS.32, but I don't expect much, if any difference.  Good lick to you!
   Type at you later,
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Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2021, 02:19:53 AM »

    Hello Dave;

     The Torpedo .29 will be a good choice to get the Ringmaster off the ground.  The only issue will be the exhaust sticking up if it is mounted with the cylinder on the outboard side. You can mount the engine and tank on the inboard side to make the operation of the engine easier. As said, the International Ring-a-Thon is a global event and can actually last for a week or so depending on weather conditions where people fly, so they can get their flights in and have them added to the totals. Strictly for fun and to celebrate a great old design. The ASP .32 is more or less a clone of the OS.32 and makes a good stunt engine. It was designed initially I think, for helicopter use and they just changed the head for fixed wing operations. I have several in use on SIG Primary Force stunt models. If you are going to use it as it comes with a carb, just experiment with closing off the throttle to various settings. The carb had no spray bar through it like a restrictor C/L venturi would and it quite large in the wide open configuration. When you get a model built for it, something in the Nobler size range, start off with a 4 ounce tank and set the throttle to about 3/4, and use a 10-4 to 11-4 prop. It should run in the 9500 to 10,000 RPM ranges depending on your altitude and model weight. It should do the job well once you get settings figured out and established. If you can know someone that can machine a venturi for you, we can send you the dimensions for a standard restrictor venturi or a true venturi, which will be considerable smaller if you put the needle valve when the pinch bar goes that holds the carb in. Nothing super critical, just little details that need to be worked  out, but you would not be the first person to use the ASP .32. I have one that I will bolt on one day just to see how they run compared to the OS.32, but I don't expect much, if any difference.  Good lick to you!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Thanks Dan.
Can you tell me why though that the method is to restrict the venturi?
I am trying to understand why its neccessary.
As someone else suggested, although a different technique, I am planning on throttle control - mine will be a wired solution using the control lines as the connecting wires.
So I am planning on installing a small servo to control the throttle and then using pulse control via the wires to change the engine revs.
This is why I asked about using a RC engine on a CL model.

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2021, 07:22:44 AM »
Thanks Dan.
Can you tell me why though that the method is to restrict the venturi?
I am trying to understand why its neccessary.
As someone else suggested, although a different technique, I am planning on throttle control - mine will be a wired solution using the control lines as the connecting wires.
So I am planning on installing a small servo to control the throttle and then using pulse control via the wires to change the engine revs.
This is why I asked about using a RC engine on a CL model.

     For an engine equipped with a venturi, there are two schools of thought on how to execute that. One is to have the spray bar go straight through the venturi intersecting the centerline of the venturi throat. The bore of the throat needs to be big enough to get enough air flow so that the engine runs properly. This is referred to as a "restrictor type" venturi. If you search out that term you will find lots of information on suggested sizes and such The open area  on either side of the spray bar is referred to as the choke area. As the piston goes up in the engine it creates a vacuum, and this vacuum pulls against  the the spray bar and opening to pull in air and fuel through the spray bar. In a "true venturi" the spray bar is offset from the throat of the venturi. It is usually installed in the hole where the pinch bar is that holds the carb in on some brands of engines. Super Tigre, some Magnum engines, and several others are like this from the factory. Since there is no "restrictor" in the throat of the venturi, the bore will need to be smaller in diameter to have the same choke area so that the crank case vacuum has something to work against to draw the fuel/air mixture into the engine. The venturi will need to have a hole drilled 90 degrees to the throat that will align with the discharge hole in the spray bar so the fuel can be drawn in. Sometimes this is also accomplished by machining a groove around the body of the venturi that is in line with the spray bar hole, and then a series of small holes are spaced around the groove that go through to the bore of the throat. This is referred to as a 'sprinkler" type of true venturi. There are varying opinions of which works better. If you are intending to use a throttle on your model, you can run the engine with the throttle wired off partially closed and you will find that the engine will run a bit better and get better fuel economy. If you plan to have a servo controlled throttle, that will work also. Here in the US, our scale competition rules allows us to use 2.4 GHZ radio control of the throttle and other options on a scale model but the elevator must still be controlled by direct control of a handle, two lines and a bell crank/pushrod system. Any way you wish to contril the servo should work fine also. Operating at full throttle will act much like a true venturi with a large throat as there is no spray bar going through the carburetor to restrict the fuel/air mixture, and your fuel economy will be lower.  I hope I have explained this properly for you, and if not please ask any further questions.
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Offline Dave vanEck

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2021, 11:07:12 AM »
     For an engine equipped with a venturi, there are two schools of thought on how to execute that. One is to have the spray bar go straight through the venturi intersecting the centerline of the venturi throat. The bore of the throat needs to be big enough to get enough air flow so that the engine runs properly. This is referred to as a "restrictor type" venturi. If you search out that term you will find lots of information on suggested sizes and such The open area  on either side of the spray bar is referred to as the choke area. As the piston goes up in the engine it creates a vacuum, and this vacuum pulls against  the the spray bar and opening to pull in air and fuel through the spray bar. In a "true venturi" the spray bar is offset from the throat of the venturi. It is usually installed in the hole where the pinch bar is that holds the carb in on some brands of engines. Super Tigre, some Magnum engines, and several others are like this from the factory. Since there is no "restrictor" in the throat of the venturi, the bore will need to be smaller in diameter to have the same choke area so that the crank case vacuum has something to work against to draw the fuel/air mixture into the engine. The venturi will need to have a hole drilled 90 degrees to the throat that will align with the discharge hole in the spray bar so the fuel can be drawn in. Sometimes this is also accomplished by machining a groove around the body of the venturi that is in line with the spray bar hole, and then a series of small holes are spaced around the groove that go through to the bore of the throat. This is referred to as a 'sprinkler" type of true venturi. There are varying opinions of which works better. If you are intending to use a throttle on your model, you can run the engine with the throttle wired off partially closed and you will find that the engine will run a bit better and get better fuel economy. If you plan to have a servo controlled throttle, that will work also. Here in the US, our scale competition rules allows us to use 2.4 GHZ radio control of the throttle and other options on a scale model but the elevator must still be controlled by direct control of a handle, two lines and a bell crank/pushrod system. Any way you wish to contril the servo should work fine also. Operating at full throttle will act much like a true venturi with a large throat as there is no spray bar going through the carburetor to restrict the fuel/air mixture, and your fuel economy will be lower.  I hope I have explained this properly for you, and if not please ask any further questions.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Thanks Dan - great explanation.
My Torpedo by the way has the exhaust on the upper side if you mount on a profile model facing the outboard side.
Thank you and all the other guys for the information.


Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2021, 04:27:42 PM »
Thanks Dan - great explanation.
My Torpedo by the way has the exhaust on the upper side if you mount on a profile model facing the outboard side.
Thank you and all the other guys for the information.

  The Torpedo engines will run that way, just can be difficult to start because they flood easy that way. No way for excess fuel to run out of the cylinder. Most guys get them fueled up and ready to start, then have a helper hold the model with the wing vertical and inboard wing down until the engine is running and then quickly level the wings. I think even with the inboard wing up, and the engine inverted, it may start pretty easy and stay running better because the tank pick up will be covered with fuel.  It will just take some experiments and practice.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Control line model design parameters
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2021, 06:35:33 PM »
  The Torpedo engines will run that way, just can be difficult to start because they flood easy that way.
Dan is right but I had success with the one I had back in the 70's by choking it till I had fuel to the venturi then a very small prime in the open exhaust port.  Pull in too much fuel with the choke or over prime?....skip to the part where you turn it over.

I think it was not intended for profiles.  Logical side for the exhaust on a full body.

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