Constant questions on Mid West kits

[Ty Marcucci]

 

[Bill Morell]

I thought the Panther and Cougar were classic OK? Feel quite sure that a couple of Panthers have been flown at VSC. If their OK there they should be OK anywhere else.

[Dan McEntee]

  I just made a post over on that thread, and I would be interested in the history of Midwest Models. The Panther and Cougar are Classic legal, and I'm guessing that it is the same company that produced both those designs, and teh "Warbird Series" kits. I had asked someone at Midwest to send me a listing of all there kits when they were a sponsor at KidVenture, and they did send me one which was quite long, but I have no idea where it is at this point in time. Might be interesting to find out again.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Mike Keville]

I thought the Panther and Cougar were classic OK? Feel quite sure that a couple of Panthers have been flown at VSC. If their OK there they should be OK anywhere else.

==============================================================

The Panther & Cougar were originally produced by Kenhi Models in the '50s.  They are perfectly legal in Classic.  Midwest simply adopted the designs.

[Phil Spillman]

The MidWest Profile War-Bird Series is Nostalgia 30 Legal for sure! There may be several of their designs which were published within the Classic limit prior to having been kitted by Mid West. The P-51 and P-63 and perhaps the Magician come to mind!

Phil Spillman

[riley wooten]

For info on any CL kits by Midwest, see my latest post in the Classic page.  Simply put NO CL kit by Midwest is classic elegible. Heck, the company didn't even exist until July 68 and was in Salt Lake City until their move to Hobart, Indiana after that date. Their first kits were RC.  First CL kits came out in Oct 1970. 

Midwest Products of Hobart, In. has been around since the early 50's I know....  How long before that I can not say.  Frank Garcher was their long time president, until his death and a good friend.  Known to his friends and many modelers as "Big Stoop..
RW

[Steve Helmick]

One of my earliest CL models was a 1/2a "Half Fast", and of course the .35 size was also in production at Midwest.  Mine was worn out by 1960.  It was pretty hard to break, IIRC, and the wood was pretty light.  Steve

[55chevr]

I am sure that I built a bunch of Midwest Hornets for combat in the early 60-s ... guessing 1962 or so.


Joe

[Bill Morell]

I also remember Omega stunt trainer kits.

[Larry Fernandez]

WRONG

The Hemstrought PT-19 was kitted by Midwest in the early sixties and is "Classic" legal.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[55chevr]

I have one of the Midwest PT19 kits but don't know when it was manufactured ... I could check the plans for a date.

Joe

[Dan McEntee]

  Ty may be mistaken about the origins of Midwest, but not about the introduction of the "Warbird Series" of kits. The  ME-109 and King Cobra by Vince Macchia were published by Flying Models before Dec 31, 1969, but I don't think they are exactly the same airplane as what was kitted by Midwest. I looked both up in the Tom Morris book, and the book I have of kit plans that was published by the AMA I think back in the late 70's or 80's and tried to compare them, but it's difficult to tell for sure. Rib thickness and wing structure look different. It's just not possible for me to dig the kits out right now. I don't think the whole line of kits were introduced all at once, I think they were introduced one or two at a time over several years. I graduated from high school in '74 and the P-40 had not been out too long at that time, and I bought and built that one once I had more free time and the itch to fly models again. They are all "classic" designs and get a lot of our hearts pumping just like they did back in the day, but they are not classic legal for competition.

[Dennis Moritz]

Sounds as tho they are borderline Nostalgia eligible. In most contests on the East Coast Nostalgia and Classic are flown together and judged by the same judges at the same time. True at Brodak. Trophies are awarded separately. Flying in Nostalgia often gives you a better shot at a plaque. Smaller entry.

[Hoss Cain]

Midwest Profiles, 29-40 or so, were available in the early '70s. I owned a Hobby Shop in Mt Prospect, IL then and they were standard items.
I flew the ME 109, and still have a kit out in the barn. Nice fun machine but far from a true Ukie Stunter.

[john e. holliday]

I agree, the three Midwest kits should not be Classic legal.   My P-63 was bought and built in the mid 60's as I still lived in our first house after I got married.   It was my first experience with Solar Film which I do not see in the USA shops anymore after Monokote was changed to a non sticky covering.   Remember when you had to be really careful with the first Monokote?

[Balsa Butcher]

I think a good case can be made for the P-63 and ME-109 to be considered classic eligible. Both the kit plans and magazine plans were credited to Vince Macchia. Magazine, December (or earlier) 1969, kits October 1970. Ten months is a reasonable time to go from a drawn plan to a commercial kit. Slight differences in the kit from the original plans- what kit doesn't have these? If you compared 90% of the classic and OTS kits marketed today to their original plans you would find slight, and sometimes significant, differences and they are allowed to compete.   

[Dan McEntee]

I think a good case can be made for the P-63 and ME-109 to be considered classic eligible. Both the kit plans and magazine plans were credited to Vince Macchia. Magazine, December (or earlier) 1969, kits October 1970. Ten months is a reasonable time to go from a drawn plan to a commercial kit. Slight differences in the kit from the original plans- what kit doesn't have these? If you compared 90% of the classic and OTS kits marketed today to their original plans you would find slight, and sometimes significant, differences and they are allowed to compete.   

   Well, you gotta draw the line somewhere. Kits at that time period almost always differed from the published design. The models were usually "shrunk" a little bit so that they could get them into a standard sized box that the manufacturers already had in stock. The Ed Southwick Skylark is a perfect example. As Ed originally designed it, it's a larger airplane. When I first met Ed at VSC one year, I innocently asked him about that, and it obviously upset him and was a subject that still upset him probably to his dying day. The Shark 45 is another example. I fly a replica of the Jetco kit, which varies greatly from Lew McFarland's original design, but looks the same, but both are classic legal. Some manage to be classic legal because they were both available in the specified time period. Different is still different, no matter how small a difference it is. If you are going to have an event, you have to have rules, and if you allow one, you'll open the flood gates for others.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[RC Storick]

The perfect example of that is the Tucker special. The one everyone fly's is not the same as the last one left on Shaffer's Hobby shop wall. Same goes for Billy's Ares the kit is not the same as he flew (so I am told).

[RandySmith]

There  ARE a lot of MIDWEST  KITs  that  are  legal  for  Classic, and many were designed before the DEC cutoff  date, all you need to do is check,  Also remember  BRODAK models didn't  exist back  before 1969  and they sell many Classic  kits

From the rules, Designed--kitted--or published;;  and  makes them legal

The purpose of the event is to encourage the construction and flying of control
line stunt models designed, published, or kitted prior to December 31, 1969. Any design may be
entered, provided the contestant has convincing evidence of the designs’ compliance. Challenged
contestants may show dated published plans, magazine construction article, dated photographs and/or
letters of confirmation of the date of the design.

Regards
Randy

[Balsa Butcher]

The Shark and Skylark are not good examples for this discussion as both the published designs and kits were produced during the era, making both versions legal, no question. The ones I am loosely referring to are the designs that were published during the 60's but not kitted until much later. What's to lose by adding the ME-109 and P-63 to the list? They are not going to have a competitive advantage over other designs. It's not as if you were entering an Impact and calling it a Nobler. Might even get a few more people involved.

What other designs would come flooding in if they were allowed? The only one I can think of is (possibly) Bill Simon's P-40.  As the ME-109 and P-63 were designed and published in the 60s, even if they were not kitted until the early 70's they have better credentials than some of the other designs currently allowed such as Profile Noblers. Besides, Doc posted that he was flying a Midwest P-63 in the mid 60's...who am I to argue that?

[Dan McEntee]

   As far as I can determine from research, the only control line stunt kits released by Midwest after 1970 were the Warbird Series models. There was a 1/2A series of kits also, but I'm not too sure about the release dates of those, but the four I have in my collection were well after 1970.The designs in question, the P-63 and the ME-109, were published prior to 1970 and I have posted the issues elsewhere. I have not had time, nor the full size plan of each, to compare them one to one. But in looking at reduced copies of each that have been published in books, I believe there are significant differences in each due to production requirements, which changes the design, and thus makes them ineligible, in my opinion. I have the kits, but not the full size plans of the P-63 and the ME-109. As has been mentioned per the rules, it is up to the contestant to provide the proof that the subject is eligible. As it has been generally accepted to this point that the Midwest Warbird Series kits are not eligible, I would think that a comparison of the full size plans of each at the time of entry would be needed and sufficient. How well the do or don't fly isn't relevant. I love the designs, and I wish that they were legal. Just stating that they are doesn't make it so. As for the Ol' Doc, he must be remembering the P-63 incorrectly, because we know it wasn't published until 1968 or '69 and they preceded the kits. Sorry Doc! He must have meant the '70s but typed 60's instead.
   As for the other Classic and OTS designs that may or may not have been altered, you'll have to take them up on an individual basis. Kits put out by today's manufacturers may or may not have been true to the original design, and again, you'll have to take them up on an individual basis. I believe the main criteria is the date of the design, the moment length, airfoil, landing gear location, and wing/stab areas, which are the main basis for a design. In my opinion, if any of those have been altered or changed for any reason, it's a different design, and as it has been stated and agreed upon, designs were changed to allow them to fit in a standard available box. If that kit was released after the deadline, it would be up to the contestant to prove that the design existed at least on paper before the deadline, if you want it to be considered for eligibility. And again, just assuming or speculating  it was, doesn't make it so. and for one more example, it is generally accepted that Bob Geiseke flew a version of his Nobler before 1970, but it wasn't the same as the kit that Top Flite Models produced after the deadline, thus making the kit ineligible for classic.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Dennis Moritz]

Most contests and contestants are flexible. This includes my experience at Brodak and the Nats as well as East Coast local contests. The Midwest Magician kit, for instance, differs extensively from the original design, kitted by Brodak. The original was smaller in dimensions. Looked similar, but it is en extensive revision. The Midwest Magician is assumed to be Classic Legal, every place I've flown. Tho the later design probably did not make the Dec 31, 1969, cut. Most modern kits are not identical to the original models. Often construction designs are not the same. In many cases it can be argued that this effects airfoil shape or even moments. I have never been at a contest at which someone thought it an issue worthy of protest. There's another factor that occurs to me. How often have designers retained their original plans? If we don't have the original plans or the original model, our judgements must be relative and realistic. Especially so with our current manufactures, who did not exist within 20 years plus of the Classic Era.

[Dave_Trible]

I can sure attest that the Midwest kit Magician is classic legal.  They were as common here in the KC area in 1964 when I started as a Twister or P-Force is today.  I had my first one and learned the squares on it in 1966. I never new anyone else ever made it until just a few years ago.

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

Most contests and contestants are flexible. This includes my experience at Brodak and the Nats as well as East Coast local contests. The Midwest Magician kit, for instance, differs extensively from the original design, kitted by Brodak. The original was smaller in dimensions. Looked similar, but it is en extensive revision. The Midwest Magician is assumed to be Classic Legal, every place I've flown. Tho the later design probably did not make the Dec 31, 1969, cut. Most modern kits are not identical to the original models. Often construction designs are not the same. In many cases it can be argued that this effects airfoil shape or even moments. I have never been at a contest at which someone thought it an issue worthy of protest. There's another factor that occurs to me. How often have designers retained their original plans? If we don't have the original plans or the original model, our judgements must be relative and realistic. Especially so with our current manufactures, who did not exist within 20 years plus of the Classic Era.

     The Midwest version of the Magician did exist before the cut off date, which makes it eligible. They took the design over from , I think it was, Technical Models, or something like that, which was the Jim Silhavey produced version. I have examples of each kit. The Brodak version is reported to be from Jim's original plan, and is stated as such on the plans, so you have to take that for what it is. So the Midwest Magician IS recognized as being eligible, no assumptions being necessary. You just can't make broad assumptions or guesses, you need some sort of actual verification. For instance, do you know there is a version of the green box Nobler that is .60 size?  It was never kitted nor plans published, but enlarged by an individual and competed with during that time period. There is photographic evidence of it existing, and eye witness accounts of it existing plus the actual model still exists. That has happened with other designs that are recognized but were never published or kitted. There are ways to prove things and that is what is required, not just an assumption or a memory. I would also add that I would bet a dollar against a dozen donuts that most designers who have had their planes published and/or kitted have retained their own original drawings. There would be no need for them to give them up if the design is submitted or sold. The '52 Nobler is a good example of that. The design was submitted to Model Airplane News in 1952 by George Aldrich. Once the design was accepted and publishing rights established, M.A.N. then had the right to make some changes as they deemed necessary. The model as presented in the 1952 issue of the mag is different from Georges original design because of changes made to it when it was redrawn by their artists and laid out to fit the page when reduced for publication. It's OTS legal, and also Classic legal. Then the design was sold to Top Flite, and was changed again to add some updates, and to make it fit in the already mentioned standard box and standard plan sheet of paper.. It is Classic legal as we all know, but is NOT OTS legal, even though the design originated before the cut off. I got the above information from George himself, and have a signed copy of his original plans that he drew from the leftovers of his original airplane and brown paper drawings. Then to add to the confusion with this design, Brodak came out with their "Original Nobler" that is reported to be per Georges original plan. They were allowed to do that because when Top Flite was sold to Great Planes, they destroyed all tooling, and original copies of any plans, thus reverting the rights to these designs back to their original owners. Before that, Brodak had kits of the various Flite Streak designs, but could not use that name due to rights issues, so they called it "Lightning Streak" change a few sticks or dimensions from the original,and were able to sell the kit. Once the Top Flite sale went through, then George made the deal with John Brodak and they could change the plans, instructions, and box art, which they did, and the rest is history. So again, you just can't make assumptions, you have to have proof. And like the UFO hunters like to say, the proof is out there, you just have to look for it!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Dennis Moritz]

George over the years told different versions of the Nobler original plan story. The one I heard implied that the original drawings were incomplete. The brown paper not configuring every part. In fact it was someones recounting to me of this story (having heard it directly from the George) that made me think that "original" is a relativistic term when applied to our hobby. I purchased two Walter Umland wing kits and built an excellent flying Magician using one. The leading edges were 1/8" higher on the flat than the front butt of the ribs. I assumed space had been allowed for capstripping. Which I did. The Midwest kit was not capstripped. I used a set of Midwest Plans to build the rest. The rib positioning rib to rib on the plans I had for the Magician were inconsistent. Varying as much as 1/4." Which is a lot when you multiply by 18. (I think that was the number of Magician bays). When I jigged the wing I decided on a bay dimension roughly between the widest and narrowest dimension. What would have happened if I did the old time practice of building over the plans.  Which leads to another basic point. Copied plans vary in dimensions, line thickness, even the right angles are often significantly off. I started checking this and that out, including rib profiles, plan to plan that I owned, significant variances. Probably enough to effect the aerodynamics of a model and the flight characteristics. Then there are the kits of these esteemed Classics. Older ones especially, even some newer kits. Accuracy of parts vary. I had a Control Line Classic kit with trailing edges that were miss-cut and unusable. I have a P51 Mustang kit that was a knock off made by a free flight company right after Sterling stopped. Lots and lots of errors. Some ribs were too long, some were too short. Nice wood. Building that plane has been an amusing challenge. Since Sterling did not provide full size plans with their kits, and this knock off was big time unreliable as far as the die cut and hand cut pieces, how would the originality of these models be evaluated?

Jim signed off on the Brodak Magician design. He was there. I saw him. If he says the Brodak kit is accurate to the original, that's that.

Photographic evidence is in no way dimensionally definitive. You get the look of the plane, not much else.

Most of us realize the above, which is why a certain amount of tolerance for deviation in dimensions and so forth is tolerated at Classic and Old Time events.

The Brodak Lightning Streak uses capstripping, the original Flite Streak did not. It also uses a conventional leading edge and top and bottom main spar structure. George used dagger ribs and a hollowed leading edge. Interestingly enough the ARF Flite Streak uses the Brodak Lighning Streak structure. The Brodak Flite Streak simulates the original method of wing construction.

[Dennis Moritz]

I've a friend who is a top ten Nats flier who has designed a number of competition models. He designed a beautiful one for me. He has flown and continues to fly one of his original designs with great success. Where are the plans? I bet the brown paper or white paper originals drawings leave a lot out. The beautiful plane he designed for me has more than one gap in the drawings. The details are easily rigged. But my version will not be identical to your version and so forth. Hand building anything, for that matter, always implies dimensional and shape variance.

[john e. holliday]

Well, I guess I did get the date wrong on the P-63.  Was after I got married in 68.  Had motorcycle accident Holloween night in 68.  Had to be in early 70's as we were still in our original house in Argentine KS.   I also have one of the Umland Original Magician with Jim Silhavy's signature on the box.  Will have to go look an see what number kit it is.   Walter did number the kits as he sold them.  Have several of his kits.  The first one I got from him was a profile scale kit that I am still looking for documentation for.    But, in reality it is up to the contestants and/or CD to decide if a person is allowed to fly a design in competition.  We need more flyers/pilots than we need arguments.   

[Dennis Moritz]

Flexibility is useful in most things.