CONSEQUENCES

[Tom Niebuhr]

I have decided to go public with this.  I have spent most of my life flying stunt, and have always been proud to say that CL Stunt, and Scale (CL and RC) are the only places left to see beautiful airplanes.
I know there will be some who will disagree, some with their own intentions, some sarcastic, some that just don't get it. This is my take, I make no apologies, and I will not answer the negatives.. I just had to say it.





Consequences

With all the discussions on eliminating the B.O.M and eliminating appearance points, it is a shame that aside from people saying it is not fair for newcomers, or to retreads, people are not looking at the affect of these proposals.

While AFRS appear to be here to stay, and they have some purpose, the quality has often been questionable. With the influx of all the ARFS, the CL cottage kit industry has been hit hard, almost to extinction.

The impact on our stunt event is also a downward spiral. While people are eliminating appearance points, this is done with absolutely NO thought of the impact. ARFs are rewarded an effective bonus, because they are considered equal to the beautiful airplane that someone spent hundreds of hours building. To put it another way, if an airplane would normally get 17 appearance points, and it now gets “0”, the ARF next to it, complete with the wrinkles in the iron on finish, effectively gets that 17 points, for doing almost nothing! (This is an insult!)

Stunt in the US has a wonderful tradition, that has both attracted people to the event, and has spurred development.

Just think, no more room full of a hundred stunters at the NATS for appearance judging. No more display of a hundred airplanes at VSC. The beautiful airplanes that were always an attraction to the stunt event, will now be penalized.

Some people say: "Give a Concours Award". Believe me, only a handful of people at the Nats would present their airplanes for this, and because there is no display of airplanes, most people who could vote for Concours will not see all the airplanes in order to make this judgment!

We are even starting to see people boycott events that do not give appearance points, because these people recognize what is happening.

NOW ANOTHER MAJOR IMPACT:
The U.S. balsa suppliers are now having great difficulties getting quality wood, because it is all going to China. Yet, reports on the ARFS / ARCS is that their weights vary as much as 10 ounces, showing that they are not selecting wood, they just use it.

If our balsa suppliers don't have balsa to sell, they will go out of business. THIS AFFECTS EVERYONE!

[Dwayne]

Sorry Tom you are right I disagree
There are allways going to be those who build their own planes it's a matter of pride!! Make no mistake 100 stunters is not going away!! It wont happen, trust me on this it wont happen! There is just something about taking a bunch of balsa and turning it into a world champion airplane that will keep many a builder alive and well. Yes arfs have a place in our hobby/sport now but they are not a threat! They are a compliment! But there is allways going to be those who will build there own stuff, apperience points or not, BOM or not, there will allways be those who build, it's a matter of pride!!

[Bill Smith]

I agree with you Tom.
If they want to remove BOM from intermediate thats Ok but I think the incentive to come up with new designs and nice planes will be greatly reduced if the BOM is dropped totally.
A home built plane verses a Arf is the difference between a Hobby and a toy.
I did fly an ARC last year and I thought the placer of the decals points were funny. I took them but I didn't put in enough work to deserve them.

[Bradley Walker]

NOW ANOTHER MAJOR IMPACT:
The U.S. balsa suppliers are now having great difficulties getting quality wood, because it is all going to China. Yet, reports on the ARFS / ARCS is that their weights vary as much as 10 ounces, showing that they are not selecting wood, they just use it.

Who are you getting all this from?  If balsa is getting to be in short supply, that means people are BUYING MODEL AIRPLANES WHICH IS GOOD!!!  Lord knows we need more stunt fliers for sure.  The Chinese would not "buy up" anything they were not then importing right back to the USA.

Name me an ARF that varies 10 oz?  Even if there was such an animal it is not a reflection of the market but of the exception to the rule.  That is like saying if one ARF is junk, they must all be junk.  Truthfully, most current ARF's are better than the large majority of people can build.

Maybe I can get Steve to show you one of the UHP ARF prototypes.  I doubt you could build one better, or much lighter, frankly.  Steve's proto G. Nobler is LIGHTER than his proto kit built Nobler (laser cut by Kyle with wood from Rileys).

I can assure the manufacturers will use the best wood they can get.   Maybe there is a shortage of balsa, it has happened before.

[Steve Kientz]

I've only been a sport flyer for several years, can't even say I'll fly in competition at any time, but I have to give an opinion on this.
The last three years I have spent one day watching stunt at Muncie. I'm amazed at the craftsmanship that goes into these planes. Beautiful paint schemes,fit and finish is outstanding.
I can see that as a beginner,ARFs are a great thing. There is very little emotional attachment, so if it crashes it is not that big of deal. I can either fix or replace it. I think they have their place in the lower(newer pilots) classes of competition. I would think once one is past that point ,pride in what you are flying becomes a major point. I wouldn't mind seeing ARFs fly in the upper classes, but I don't want to see them awarded appearance points.
I remember my father building planes when I was young,the thought and care that went in to his building,even his combat planes. That is what this hobby(sport) is all about. you should strive for a perfect score,a finish that your fellow hobbist admire, one that makes them try harder. If you want to fly ARFs at a meet go for it,but don't expect to earn points for the manufacturers work.
On the issue of the balsa supply drying up, it's being used by all the companies building the R/C ARFS,youv'e seen them in the magazine. I call them C&D( crash & done) airplanes.
Sorry I rambled so long,but I hate to see C/L go the way R/C has.

Steve
 

[Norm Faith Jr.]

           Let me tell you all "how Peter wrote it on a rock" for me. I got into PA in 2000, after many years of RC and other aspects of modelling, too many to talk about. It became an inspiration for me to learn the complete pattern; a feat for someone this late in life. That accomplishment inspired me to design and build a Concours winning ship. It took me seven years to get here...and now? There are those who want to throw; what I consisder a "religious aspect" of the sport in the dumper??? That SUCKS!...just plain SUCKS!   IMHO
Norm

Circlepilot

 

[Andrew Hathaway]

The problem I see is that no one can prove or disprove that anyone built and finished their plane.  If I do my best to build the best plane I can and then get beat by appearance points only, how do I know that the other guy is responsible for his planes appearance?  How can he prove that he did?  How do I know that his proof is authentic?  I'm just supposed to trust that he's telling the truth.  Say you go with the 51% view, what do you consider 51%?  Building the wing?  Building the entire plane short of the finish?  Just applying the finish?  Besides all that the appearance points are such a small part of the event, the flying points far outweigh the appearance.  Would you rather fly a plane with a sub-average finish that puts in a killer pattern or the one that does a so-so pattern with a killer finish? 

People will continue to apply nice finishes.  C/L is pretty much an anachronistic activity anyway.  Applying a classic finish goes hand in hand with the bellcrank in the wing.  Why give incentive to apply a nice finish?  OTS has no appearance bonus points and the majority still use old technology, finishes, paint, etc. 

ARF's bring so many positives into play that far outweigh the negatives.  I've never had an ARF that filled the place of a kit or a scratch built plane.  I doubt that most people buy an ARF for the same reason they'd build a kit.  Unless I've got a really good reason I'd never use an ARF in competition anyway.  I've done it once when the choice was between participating or not flying at all. 

If a rule change results in a sudden boom of ARF's and commercially built planes that ruin the event, the rules can just as easily be changed back.   It's obvious the current system doesn't work.

[Steve Fitton]

If balsa is really in short supply, it means that somebody is building LPG Tanker ships again, building sailboats, or manufacturing loads of Corvettes.

Industry has, and always will, use more balsa than all the model airplanes ever built.

NASA was even going to use balsa to insulate the LH2 tank on the Saturn 5 third stage, 'till they realized that they would need the entire world's production of balsa from 1964 to 1972, and even that might be enough.  Fortunately for modeling, they developed a foam insulation instead.......

Steve

[Jim Kraft]

Brad; I think that is what Tom meant. All the balsa is going to China instead of here for us scratch/ kit builders. My hobby shop guy who has stocked contest balsa for years told me a couple of weeks ago that he could not get it any more. I came back to C/L 15 plus years ago because of the fact of the bom, and that the pattern had not changed in years. I flew R/C pattern for 25 years and it was always changing. When they went to the FAI turnaround pattern we lost a lot of flyer's. I don't know why we think we need to get in step with the rest of the world. I say, let them get in step with us. I still don't like the metric system. Probably, just because I'm an old duffer and don't like change without a good reason. So far I have not seen a good reason. To me, C/L aerobatics has always been a unique event. I don't really have anything against ARF's or ARC's or certainly not the people who fly them. I just hate to see this event turned in to something else. Probably because I'm just an old duffer.

P.S. I have enough contest balsa in my stash to last the rest of my life.

[Bob Reeves]

Wake up! the only thing that will change no matter what happens to BOM is the number of entries at your contests will increase. Builders will still build and flyers will still fly they will just do it under rules that better fit what is really happening in this hobby.

Do you think Top Flight, SIG, and now Horizon (comming out with Saito CL engines) don't think that CL is growing.. They wouldn't have invested in the development of new products if they didn't have some concrete data...

If we do not embrace the change we will kill the hobby. It will die when we do.

[Jim Kraft]

You are probably right Bob. I really don't think anyone knows what will happen either way. I really don't know what killed R/C pattern. All I know is you can not find a contest where there used to be many. Back before we went to FAI pattern, there were contests everywhere with 30 to 40 contestants at each contest. R/C pattern is just a shell of its former self. I cannot really say why, but I do know why a large portion of the people left. Quite a few have come to C/L like me. It was the last bastion of an event that still had the old traditional values that we grew up with. It does not make to much difference to me because I will most likely never fly expert at the Nats anyway. It is just that us old duffers don't want to give away the last event with what we love about C/L stunt. I have no idea what will happen in the future, but I could see where if you had the money you could by a plane built by an expert, and win the event by flying instead of having to build your own. I am sure many think this would be a good thing. Everyone has an opinion, some for bom, and some to get rid of it, and some good arguments on both sides. I just hope what ever happens that we can all come together in the end and agree to what ever the membership decides. Just my 2cents

[Bill Little]

Thanks, Tom. 

Nothing would please me more than to see a return to a true BOM, and that it IS applied to the NATS events and that we all would return to the PAMPA rules that were written to take into account someone flying a plane they did not build themself.  The rule already exists.  AND , if a person wants to be THE NATIONAL CHAMPION, then why can't they do it as those who have gone before?  Whatever the rule is, then it should be used.

Unfortunately, I see no way that the rule will stay around.  There is just too much opposition.  And there is just too much gray areas which have grown over the years.  It is oging to be like the day when they tore down Ebbets Field, or soon when they tear down Yankee Stadium.  Progress, it's oing to happen, but it isn't always for the best.  Maybe those of us "old farts" will be gone from the event by then.  I will continue as long as I can, but it has become less important since our local contests have dropped the BOM/AP rules.  IT DoES INSULT ME when a $99 bought airplane gets the same beginnings that mine does.  I took the time to learn how to build and finish a stunt plane.  Then it is just thrown to the wind in the HOPES (no proven facts that it will in any way help sustain the event OR increase participation) that more people wil fly.  That's what the Beginner class is for.  No BOM/AP.

In Coaching it's the old saying.... "If you can't run with the Big Dogs, stay on the porch".  That doesn't mean what 99% of the people out there thinks it does, either.  Too many people today believe that just because they WANT to run with the big dogs, they should be allowed to.  Forget that the big dogs are just that for a reason.

Give our love to Linda!
Bill <><

[Bradley Walker]

If balsa is really in short supply, it means that somebody is building LPG Tanker ships again, building sailboats, or manufacturing loads of Corvettes.

Industry has, and always will, use more balsa than all the model airplanes ever built.

What Steve said.

There have been shortages before.  I doubt that any real shortages of balsa have to with ARF's.   ESpecially CL stunt ARFS!?  Give me a break!!  How many CL Stunt ARF's are prodiuced a year?  In comparison to RC it is maybe 5% if that.

BTW, Tom, How many kits do you sell a year?  5 or 10?  UHP sold 20 in its best year.  I doubt you have sold more than Steve.  I do not think there is enough balsa there to say that ANY shortage of balsa could be affecting your business.

[Wayne Collier]

Someone woke up one day with a new idea -- "I can fly but I can't build worth crap."   Being a latter 20th century type, this person saw no need to learn and gain skills to compete -- it never crossed his mind.  Instead he decided in himself that the right thing to do was throw away half the competition so he could participate "equally" with those who had learned and gained the skills to compete.  After all, his school teacher had given him credit for effort when he didn't know the right answer. She didn't realize he had been spending hours playing Pac Man instead of doing his lessons. Twice he had been "socially" promoted to the next grade even though he was performing poorly.  So why shouldn't a sport change its rules to suit his needs?

This was not his first attempt.  He had campaigned to get points for hitting the backboard in basket ball.  Actually he thought that throwing the ball in the right general direction should be worth a couple of points also.  He had also tried to get a rule change allowing him to use his hands in soccer.  He didn't get very far in those crowds.  He found those people to be rude traditionalists who wouldn't listen to his ideas. 


Hey I realize that the above statement could be taken as incendiary -- I guess I'm using a current debate, in which I have little stake, as an excuse to lament over some cultural things that bother me.  I by no means am trying to stereotype any individual. 

[Doug Moon]

I know this is off track.

Why is RC pattern dead?  I am not an RC flier and I think I can answer that to some extent.  3-D!!!  IMAC!!!!  They have become the "THING" to do right now.  Everyone loves those scale like planes that can do anything you ask of them.  Large or small they are in and I think they are here to stay.

[steven yampolsky]

Appearance points or not, it's all about one's preferences. If a person wants to build beautiful models, let him! If (s)he can't and would rather buy an ARF, that's fine too!

I have two stories that happened to me that impacted the way I think about BOM, ARFS and everything related to it:

1) I've been beaten by a guy who claimed he built the model. The very next year, I find out he DID not build that model. Now, THAT is insulting.

2) Earlier in the year I beat Bill Suarez who was flying an arf by 11 points. I beat him purely because of 15 appearance points I got for my model. After the shock wore off, the victory felt hollow.

[Bob Reeves]

One big problem is that several that feel we should hang with the BOM rule truly believe those that want to eliminate the BOM rule are advocating it because they are lazy and don't want to build. That is so far from reality it doesn't even make sense.. All of the actual reasons have been posted many times but some refuse to believe the truth.

[Dennis Saydak]

What Steve said.

There have been shortages before.  I doubt that any real shortages of balsa have to with ARF's.   ESpecially CL stunt ARFS!?  Give me a break!!  How many CL Stunt ARF's are prodiuced a year?  In comparison to RC it is maybe 5% if that.

BTW, Tom, How many kits do you sell a year?  5 or 10?  UHP sold 20 in its best year.  I doubt you have sold more than Steve.  I do not think there is enough balsa there to say that ANY shortage of balsa could be affecting your business.

I tried to purchase some contest grade balsa at the SIG contest this year. SIG didn't have a single sheet available and they didn't know when or even if they could get some light wood. Apparently there is now an insatiable demand for balsa for making wind generator propeller cores.

[Wayne Collier]

     >>Apparently there is now an insatiable demand for balsa for making wind generator propeller cores.<<


I have seen a few of these blades being hauled down a highway near my house.  I don't know exact dimensions, but I'd estimate the ones I saw to be 45-50 feet long and over 6' diameter (maybe over 8') at the base.  Dennis may have been refering to smaller windmills.  If they use balsa in making the big boys, thats a lot of balsa. 

[Larry Cunningham]

As much as I love the smell of balsa in the morning, I'm wondering if it isn't
time to seriously pursue a new material for our model airplanes.

Think so?

L.

"We're all given some sort of skill in life. Mine just happens to be beating up on people." -Sugar Ray Leonard

[Tom Perry]

I saw an answer to this same post on the Stuka Forum by John R. Abaray (Retro-53) and am reposting it here with his permission.

"Posted by Retro_53, Fri Oct-19-07 08:16 AM

"The beautiful airplanes that were always an attraction to the stunt event, will now be penalized."

This is not true. Beautiful planes were not always an attraction to the stunt event.

I started contest flying the year after it became an event at the Nationals.

There were no appearance points.

The majority of planes were rough looking planes built by average people which at the time was the majority.

Five years later when appearance points were enacted the planes got prettier and the average people began to disappear.

At this point CLPA sometimes called stunt in now dominated by a small minority with highly specialized talents and building skills beyond the reach of the average person.

I BUILD MY OWN PLANES.

I am getting tired of hearing in the beginning it was about the building.

In the beginning it was about Joe Average having fun flying his rough looking plane in the stunt event.

IN THE BEGINNING IT WAS ABOUT THE FLYING.

I KNOW BECAUSE I WAS THERE.

edit for typo

Retro_53

Everything I have said is fact. It is well documented if you care to do the research."

[SteveMoon]

Sorry, Tom, but I think you could not be more wrong. Go to ANY model
aircraft event; FF, rubber power, stunt, IMAC, jet fly-ins, Top Gun, etc.
and there will be beautiful planes there. Some people just plain like to
build and they always will, with or without BOM points. To say that only
CL Stunt, CL Scale, or RC Scale events have beautiful planes is just
plain ridiculous. I guess you haven't seen John Grigsby's Boomerang jet.

Everyone needs to just face reality: THINGS CHANGE. Just like any other
event, hobby, sport, etc. it will be necessary for CL Stunt to make some
changes, sooner or later. That's just the way it is.

Bob R. was right in his earlier post: the only real change we would see at
contests by eliminating BOM is increased number of contestants. We also
wouldn't have to arrive at the Nats 3 full days before the first official flight
for appearance judging. That would be fine with me.

Later, Steve

[Ted Fancher]

I know this is off track.

 Large or small they are in and I think they are here to stay.

That's pretty much what we said about RC Pattern in my heyday.

Ted

[Doug Moon]

That's pretty much what we said about RC Pattern in my heyday.

Ted

Ok, I will fix that to say, they are here to stay until the next big thing to comes along.  I do remember seeing alot more pattern stuff in MA many years ago.  Now it is all IMAC and 3-D.  But with the new planes coming out and the spread spectrum radios that have memories for 19 different models capable of 3 different kinds of flight, Helo, Soaring, Powered flight, how can they not expand towards the new stuff.   And why wouldnt they want to expand it out?  If it wasnt more fun or entertaining than pattern then they would go back and still be flying pattern right?

I follow some RC stuff from afar and I can say the building is incredible.  The contests that require BOM like Top Gun or some of the others it is extraodinary what the people are designing and putting out there.   And they have to document it as well to enter the event.  Some are team entries and some are individual, it is all amazing.    These guys could very well say NO WAY and go fly a buy and fly if they wanted.  But the bottom line is they love the challenge and they do it.  Just like we do.  Either way building model planes is alive and well and I think it always well be.  ARFs are not new designs.   They follow something some one already built in the past.  Build it and they will copy it. 

[Clint Ormosen]

Bob R. was right in his earlier post: the only real change we would see at
contests by eliminating BOM is increased number of contestants. We also
wouldn't have to arrive at the Nats 3 full days before the first official flight
for appearance judging. That would be fine with me.

Later, Steve

I keep seeing people say this. Who exactly are all these people that would suddenly show up for a contest that doesn't have a BOM? Is there really a large crop of guys with ARFs just waiting in the wings for the BOM to go away before competing? I don't think so. In reality, there are probably just as many guys that won't show up if the BOM is eliminated. I'm not one of them, but I'm sure there are a few. As been stated many times before, there is no rule excluding ARF's from competition, so I've got to believe that everyone that wants to fly contests with one is doing it already. There would be no "increase" in the amount of entrants. Maybe one or two guys might jump in, but that sure doesn't give a good enough reason drop BOM and appearance points.

[George]

As much as I love the smell of balsa in the morning, I'm wondering if it isn't time to seriously pursue a new material for our model airplanes.

Think so?

L.

"We're all given some sort of skill in life. Mine just happens to be beating up on people." -Sugar Ray Leonard

Back in the seventies, when balsa was being snapped up to make super tanker linings, someone was working on a balsa substitute called "Allsa", if I remember correctly. It was a plastic that was supposed to have the same weight and texture as balsa. Supposedly, you would cut out parts and glue them just like balsa.

Anyone else remember this?

Anyone know what happened to it?

George

[john e. holliday]

I am sitting here thinking(yes it hurts) about what someone said about the number of entries in a contest.  In the 50's-60's there would be enough entries to take up most of the afternoon.  In the 70's at the contests I would go to that had stunt it was basically the same, only with four classes of stunt.   I think it was late 70's or there abouts that the PAMPA classes were going good and I started flying the event.  First contest in Int I took a first with a Mustunt I(should have stayed with Mustunt  series).  Seems Adv was the one class that had more than enough entries to give away the awards.  In fact Adv and Exp were combined in some places as well as Beg-Int.  Now we have ARF/ARC planes and I see entries going up.  In some places they are having more entries than they expected since some place have eliminated appearance points except for Exp.  I beleive the ARF/ARC has helped grow stunt as much as having four classes has helped.  Until someone can come up with a BOM rule that can be enforced and proven, what can I say.  I truly beleive the proposal that Warren has presented is a viable solution and do not see that it is handing control over to the FAI.  Check your rule book,  world competition is under FAI control.  AMA events are under AMA control.  AMA lets PAMPA run the aerobatics portion of the NATS as well as the other SIGs running their events.  For the Walker Cup there is no Exp class as it is understood to be only Open competition for NATS Champion with the Walker Cup to be competed for by the Jr, Sr and Op Champion.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[Bradley Walker]

Yes, Doc.  Yes!!!

[Bob Reeves]

Yep Doc, you got it.. Same thing here our annual Stunt contest has grown over the last several years and I see guys flying that might not if it wasn't for ARF's and build for hire stunt ships. I believe this is a good thing even for the BOM believers, that is assuming everyone wants to grow the hobby.

What I would really like to see but ain't gonna happen is the Build For Hire guys to post their customer lists for the last 10 or so years... Be interesting to see what names pop up, might not be that interesting but again it might..

[Jim Thomerson]

Some time back I decided to concentrate of flying OTS which has no BOM.  My mind became wonderfully tranquil as a result.   

[Alan Hahn]

Jim,
And as a result, have Arfs/Arcs decimated Old Time?

I agree one big bonus of eliminating BOM would be these arguments would go away. The guys who want to build would still build and we would still "ooh and ahh" at the planes. An the guys with Arfs would try to put in their best pattern, but would notice they weren't getting those "oohs and ahhs".

I have a hard time understanding the latest turn of the BOM, like this thread. Because I buy an ARF, I am putting the cottage kit industry out of business! I'm not sure how to take this. Is it my responsibilty alone to support it? This last year I bought 3 kits (Sig Twister, RSM Ringmaster, and Blackhawk Perky. I think I bought only the Super CLown ARF (electric). I don't know what else I'm suppose to do. I suggest that every BOM supporter go out and buy a kit to keep the kit makes going. I think I've done my duty for this year at least. Now to actually build a kit.

Just to put my mouth where my money is, next year, I will declare all planes (kits and arfs) as arfs, and to hell with appearance points (with my finishing talents, I am not giving up a lot  )

[Jim Thomerson]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only ARF's I have seen in OTS are Noblers and Super Clowns.  They both lose the 10-point no flap bonus in PAMPA contests.  Actually not sure I have seen an ARF Super Clown. I would guess that ARFs make up maybe 1 or 2% of the OTS airplanes flown in competition.  There are many more bought or borrowed airplanes flying.  These clearly increase participation.   I would gladly loan someone an airplane so they could enter and fly (it better than I can).

[MikeyPratt]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only ARF's I have seen in OTS are Noblers and Super Clowns.  They both lose the 10-point no flap bonus in PAMPA contests.  Actually not sure I have seen an ARF Super Clown. I would guess that ARFs make up maybe 1 or 2% of the OTS airplanes flown in competition.  There are many more bought or borrowed airplanes flying.  These clearly increase participation.   I would gladly loan someone an airplane so they could enter and fly (it better than I can).

Jim,
The TF ARF Nobler is not OTS legal.  The only two ARF kits that are OTS legal are the Smoothie and the Super Clown (at least that is all I can remember at this time).  Both ARF's receive a big hit on points from the flaps which put you out of the running most of time anyway.

Later,
Mikey

[Louis Rankin]

There is no BOM amougst the 3D profile (Pro Bro) R/C crowd; however, most that I have seen prefer to build and fly their own designs.  In the Memphis area Jeremy Chin and Paul Swaney build some very impressive profile 3d ships that would put many C/L NATS beauty contest models to shame.  They do this in spite of the fact that many ARF 3D profile designs are available.  After the BOM and appearance points are eliminated you will still see as many who prefer to build pretty planes as before, eventually more.   Eliminating BOM will not destroy creativity and innovation.  

Pilots choice/concurs awards have replaced BOM and appearance points at many contest.  This has been a natural, common sense evolution that contest directors have been adapting to for several years now.  I have never seen anyone refuse to accept the pilots choice or concurs award just because there were no appearance points awarded.  If you choose not to attend a contest just because there are no BOM or appearance points being awarded, well, that is just silly.  You will be missed, but the contest will still be fun and productive without you.

So, with all that being said.  Let us all hug each other and embrace the inevitable change.  Flying control line will still make you feel like a 12 year old boy and competition will still be fierce and innovative.

[Wayne Collier]

I agree one big bonus of eliminating BOM would be these arguments would go away. The guys who want to build would still build and we would still "ooh and ahh" at the planes. An the guys with Arfs would try to put in their best pattern, but would notice they weren't getting those "oohs and ahhs".

Don't count on it.  Thats just not how people are when they feel strongly about something.

  If you choose not to attend a contest just because there are no BOM or appearance points being awarded, well, that is just silly.  You will be missed, but the contest will still be fun and productive without you.

Also true if you skip because there is a BOM, assuming that non BOM planes would be aloud to fly but just not receive appearance points.  When we're talking about a "friendly run what you brung"  competition it makes sense to drop the BOM.  When we're talking about determining the best in the US, we presuppose participants of above average skill.  The Super Bowl is a far cry from flag football on the weekend.

[Jim Kraft]

OK Louis; First of all, I am not so sure the BOM is going away, at least for another 10 years or so. Second, I will not fly PA against people who buy 3,000$ Planes ready to go and all trimmed out. Iv'e been there and done that in R/C, and will not do it again. I will continue to fly at VSC and SAM events, but thats about it. The way I see this right now is that the guys that want to get rid of the BOM wont' be happy till its gone, and guys like me that came back here from R/C won't be happy if its gone. It is a loose loose deal. When I came back to C/L in 93 I thought things were different with you guys. Guess I was wrong.

[Norm Faith Jr.]

  In reference to some of the posts in this thread:
Am I wrong? Are there still those out there that don't understand?
There is nothing wrong or against the rules about flying a borrowed or "built for you airplane." You just don't get appearance points.
You fly an ARF, great...wonderful! (I own three) You just don't get appearance points. Finally there is honesty...If you don't have that...your the one that has to live with it. Your the one that will carry the stigma of everyone knowing about your honesty. And for those that want to point out these improprieties? You can always protest to the CD.
ARFS, borrowed /bought planes...no points...no big deal. Now let's go flying. 
Norm

Circlepilot
 

[john e. holliday]

  In reference to some of the posts in this thread:
Am I wrong? Are there still those out there that don't understand?
There is nothing wrong or against the rules about flying a borrowed or "built for you airplane." You just don't get appearance points.
You fly an ARF, great...wonderful! (I own three) You just don't get appearance points. Finally there is honesty...If you don't have that...your the one that has to live with it. Your the one that will carry the stigma of everyone knowing about your honesty. And for those that want to point out these improprieties? You can always protest to the CD.
ARFS, borrowed /bought planes...no points...no big deal. Now let's go flying. 
Norm

Circlepilot
 

Thank you,  DOC Holliday

[Iskandar Taib]

The problem I see is that no one can prove or disprove that anyone built and finished their plane.  If I do my best to build the best plane I can and then get beat by appearance points only, how do I know that the other guy is responsible for his planes appearance?  How can he prove that he did?  How do I know that his proof is authentic? 

Trick question: As the current BOM rule is written, does the flier have to apply his own finish?

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=276749&mesg_id=276749&listing_type=search#276774

(This first came up when someone remarked that there was a mention in one of the CL stunt columns in one of the magazines that one of the top Stunt pilot's son was shooting coats of paint on his father's next plane.. Can't remember where or when, you can probably find mention of it on other forums. Someone said it was against the rules, someone else pointed out it wasn't.)

[Bill Little]

Ok, I think we have all seen what the BOM discussion does to a lot of us each and every time it comes up.

Mr. Nieburh stated his own well thought out opinion on the topic from where he is standing.  That is enough to let it stand on its own merit.

I have a question that gets sidestepped and NEVER answered when the BOM question is discussed.  I mean it is ALWAYS ignored!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The PAMPA rules, as they stand now, allow anyone to fly anything that is safe at any contest short of the NATIONAL FREAKIN' CHAMPIONSHIPS.

ANYONE CAN FLY ANYTHING!!!!!!!   IT'S IN THE RULES!!!!!!!!!! Begged, borrowed, bought, stolen, whatever!  No one, repeat NO ONE, is prohibited from flying unless you actually enter the age groups (and Advanced) at the NATS.

Since this is the irrefutable truth, then why is everyone so upset about having the BOM?  It only applies to the NATS in four categories.  And since 99.99999999% of the CLPA fliers will never win a NATS competition, what is the problem?

What is wrong with things as they are now, that's ALL I want to know!!??  And so far no one has ever SAID what THAT problem is.  If anyone can fly anything, then what IS the problem??

[Bradley Walker]

What is wrong with things as they are now, that's ALL I want to know!!??  And so far no one has ever SAID what THAT problem is.  If anyone can fly anything, then what IS the problem??

The points.

[Larry Cunningham]

This really seems to be an intelligent, interesting discussion.
Why hasn't it erupted into some political free for all? 

I REALLY LIKE IT this way. It reminds me a bit of the Firing Line
debates William F. Buckley had on PBS..

The mentions of RC pattern developments make me want to take a
fresh look at them.

It is my belief that CL Stunt does need some changes; I think it might be
done without harming anyone, nor taking away traditional aspects.
(Don't ask me specifically how..)

L.

"My wife said she wanted to have sex in the backseat of the car. With ME drivin'!" -
Rodney Dangerfield