Eletric X Glow, fair?

[MarcusCordeiro]

Hi all

When I started this thread, I aimed to have a healthy debate on whether or not eletric has any kind of advantage over IC.
It's turned out that yes, there's a certain difference that could translate into advantage.
Of course, it's not only the powerplant that defines who is winning, and that has also been highlighted here.
I just wouldn't like to be seen as someone against eletrics, 'cause I am not. Setting up an eletric ship requires the same hard work, if not more, as any other, as it does flying it.
In a competition, we do our best to win, nobody races to be second, and if flying eletric is the way to go, I will do it, no doubts.
Like Bob said, it has arrived to stay, and will only get better and better.
So, being sure that the responsible people will find a way for both IC and eletric to remain competitive, I'd like to let the matter rest.

Marcus

[Bill Little]

HI Marcus,

Electrics have come so far, already, that it is mind boggling!  Will they take over all competitors in the short future?  I don't think so, but who knows.  When Richie K. won the 2010 World's with an engine that has been out of date for 20 plus years, it was just a reminder that almost anything CAN work.  It is a matter of knowing how to make your system work and a great deal of talent on the handle.  Eventually I can see Electrics as the heart of CLPA, but I am just not sure how long that will be in the coming.  We can all be cognizant that we allow each other to find what works best for them at this time and move into the future.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[john e. holliday]

I would like to thank all those that have been developing electric power for the rest of us.   If it means the saving of a flying site I am all for it.   Those I have talked to and the stuff I have read on here,  it was easier for them to get dependable equipment so they can advance further.   In my case I don't think electric will help my flying, but I do plan on giving it a try.  When you have several hundred IC engines and kits to go with them, it is hard to just dump them.   But, as has been stated already,  it is the person that works the hardest that get the accolades and trophies.

[Peter Germann]

Right now, the FAI F2B rules allow an active speed control system for electrics.  The F2B rules DO NOT allow any active speed control for IC engines other than what can be gained with combinations of tank, engine, muffler, pipe, pressure system or whatever just as long as the engine/fuel system is completely passive, or in other words, no active electronic system to control engine speed.  This difference in the rules is intentional to promote the development and use of electrics in the quest to help save flying sites.  If and whenever it is that these rules give such a significant advantage to electrics that IC engines clearly become obsolete, a change to lift the active control restriction on IC engine might happen, but I would not plan on that in the foreseeable future.  

Keith

Dear friends, please take note of the following extract from the minutes of the CIAM Plenary Meeting of April 21 2012:

-----

Unanimously approved by the Plenary Meeting and effective January 1st 2013, Control Line Circular Flight F2 will be defined as follows:

12.3 Volume ABR, Section 4C, Parts One & Two

1.3.2. Category F2 – Control Line Circular Flight F2

a) Control Line Circular Flight is flight during which all control is accomplished via physical connection to the pilot through one or more inextensible wires or cables directly connected to the model aircraft. The control wires or cables must be attached to a hand held device (control handle). Automatic flight path control and/or automatic manoeuvring are not allowed.

b) Powertrain control may be accomplished by the pilot via the wires or cables or by an onboard self-contained, automatic process.

c.) For permanent shutdown of the engine(s), any device or system is permitted including the use of 2.4 GHz Spread Spectrum technology legal for use in the country of competition. The competitor will determine the suitability for use of the chosen system. Any such device or system:

1) must be operated only by the pilot, and
2) must not affect any other model.

d.) A safety strap connecting the competitor’s wrist to the control handle must be provided by the competitor and used during all flights. A pull test shall be applied separately to the safety strap. This pull test will be applied according to each class specification concerning the lines’ pull test.
 
e.) The regulations for classes must be set forth in class rules. Except for reasons of safety, class rules must not contradict or invalidate ABR 1.3.2

f.) Control Line Circular Flight Classes are:

F2A - SPEED MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2B - AEROBATIC MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2C - TEAM RACING MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2D - COMBAT MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2E - COMBAT MODEL AIRCRAFT WITH COMPRESSION IGNITION ENGINES
F2F - DIESEL PROFILE RACING MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2G - ELECTRIC SPEED

-----

Related to the above:  “e.) The regulations for classes must be set forth in class rules”, the F2B Working Group will in near future initiate a decision finding process on how the F2B rule shall be adjusted accodingly.

Kind regards,
Peter Germann
F2B Working Group Coordinator
FAI F2 Subcommittee

[PerttiMe]

Igor's strength is aerodynamics. Thats what's kickin the booty right now,superior aerodynamics-plus of course, a ton of practice.

I believe Igor also has some purely mechanical wizardry in his control system, for better control response.
http://www.netax.sk/hexoft/stunt/the_max_ii.htm

[John Lindberg]

Well, considering my current income, I'll still be hunched over the front of my "masterpiece", knelling on my rug-sample knee-pad, flipping and cussing at the dang-gone thing for the forseeable future! You will have company, Derek. Besides, I just bought a new syringe. Some fellow flew a electric at the last contest, he took off and proceeded to do a couple of laps and then was forced to land. He forgot to charge the battery. 

[john e. holliday]

That is almost as bad as a peson I know that wanted a test flight.  Could  not get the engine to start.  Primed and choked.  It would fire and quit.  He found out the fuel line was not connected to the engine.   But, isn't it nice that an engine will start within one or two flips and then put in one great run after the over flow cap falls off the tank during the flight.  That engine may not run on  uni-anymore.

[NED-088]

Igor placed second years ago at the Worlds with an I.C.

Are you referring to those of 2008 in France, that David Fitzgerald won?

[Chris Wilson]

I am looking forward to the further miniaturization of components for spark ignition engines with fuel injection, fuel pumps and all the other 'benefits electric engine seem to need to exist.

Apply the active controls to internal combustion engines and we have a whole new ball game.

[Howard Rush]

There is a certain political party whose outlook seems to be, "If we don't like it, then it should be outlawed for everyone." There is another party whose outlook is, "If you don't like it, don't do it, but leave us alone to choose our own path." I'm most certainly in that latter group.

Good to see you've changed.

[Bob Hunt]

That's how I''ve always felt, Howard...

Bob

[Luiz Carlos Franco]

f.) Control Line Circular Flight Classes are:

F2A - SPEED MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2B - AEROBATIC MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2C - TEAM RACING MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2D - COMBAT MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2E - COMBAT MODEL AIRCRAFT WITH COMPRESSION IGNITION ENGINES
F2F - DIESEL PROFILE RACING MODEL AIRCRAFT
F2G - ELECTRIC SPEED

-----

Kind regards,
Peter Germann
F2B Working Group Coordinator
FAI F2 Subcommittee


[/quote]


If I understand it right there will be a separate combat class for diesels.

It seems to me that the difference between a diesel and other IC engines is much smaller than that between IC and E-stunt

May we infer that two classes in F2B will be coming in the future ?


Luiz

[Joe Yau]

If I understand it right there will be a separate combat class for diesels.

It seems to me that the difference between a diesel and other IC engines is much smaller than that between IC and E-stunt

May we infer that two classes in F2B will be coming in the future ?


Luiz

^ Good point!   

[Brett Buck]

^ Good point!    

   The difference between a combat diesel and a combat glow motor is FAR more than the performance difference between electric stunt and any competive IC stunt engines.

     If you have never seen diesel combat, a Ringmaster with a McCoy 19  would eat them alive.

  The only reason to separate the two in Stunt is of the FAI judges have taken it upon themselves to judge based on  sound and  political correctness instead of the rule book contents.

    Brett

[Chris Wilson]

 
     If you have never seen diesel combat, a Ringmaster with a McCoy 19  would eat them alive.

    Brett

Um, a Ring master with a Mc Coy 19 would eat a combat diesel alive in which event?

Stunt or combat?

I am having trouble seeing the Mc Coy eating anything alive at the moment.

[Brett Buck]

Um, a Ring master with a Mc Coy 19 would eat a combat diesel alive in which event?

Stunt or combat?

  Combat. I spent a lot of time watching diesel combat at the NWR one  year, it was almost absurd. They were durable, I grant them that.
    Brett

[Brad Smith]

I dont see an advantage with electric other then no oil to clean off the plane, at the field yesterday the 2 guys with electric had problems one had a motor mount come loose the other had problems with his heat sink and then his speed controller or what ever i got up one good flight with my meco 28 and a trim flight on a carnal with a brodak 40 so seems like the electric have there problems too.

[Chris Wilson]

I dont see an advantage with electric other then no oil to clean off the plane.........

Have you considered, the ability to fly by yourself as no one else is needed for a launch?

The ability to change your CG by a simple battery pack shift and having to add no further weight?

Lack of noise from the engine (although it does now place emphasis on prop noise)?

And the ability to spin whatever direction prop you choose?

[Brett Buck]

I dont see an advantage with electric other then no oil to clean off the plane, at the field yesterday the 2 guys with electric had problems one had a motor mount come loose the other had problems with his heat sink and then his speed controller or what ever i got up one good flight with my meco 28 and a trim flight on a carnal with a brodak 40 so seems like the electric have there problems too.

   There are some problems with either system, but electric offers the possibility of removing some of the variables that you would otherwise have, like greatly reduced sensitivity to air density changes. There are some who have close to mastered that for IC as well, but there are not many of them.

    I doubt that this will provide better "peak" performance, but it (just like low-pitch props, ABC/AAC engines, and tuned pipes) is going to raise the average performance and bring even more people to a competitive level.

     Brett

[Scott Richlen]

One of the big advantages I see with electric is that as more and more of you convert to electric you'll be dumping off your PAs and RO-Jetts.  If enough of you do, you'll flood the market and then I can get another PA-61 for a control-line-cheap price. 

Go electric!!!

Scott

[Chris Wilson]

If I ever go electric I will add it to my collection rather than replace anything.

[Dennis Moritz]

Mike Palko's stuff always works. At least once he switched to Lipos. No melted batteries, or overheating, no bearing wear out in 10 flights, and so on. This has been true since about 2005 or 6. Purchase quality components, match them up, engineer cooling vents, and so forth. Flip the switch, go fly. I love IC (and I still hate electric) but the advantages of the harnessed sparks, obvious, even to me. At the NATs, at local meets, at my home field, newbies or retreads, higher level PAMPA fliers, improve flying skill more quickly when they don't have to spend half the time fussing with a noisy stink plant. (Love 'em!) Twisters and the like, fly better, with mass more centered. Anyway it looks that way. Easier turn. The most skilled, the top of class, choose their motive power. So far. The results are comparable. Thank you Doug Moon. Fabulous flights this year.

[PJ Rowland]

One question I'd love to know the answer to...

How many of the Top guys ( You all know who you are... ) changed to Electric because of a reason Brett eluded to.. Reducing the variable's ...

Vs

How much was a performance increase over IC

[john e. holliday]

Have you considered, the ability to fly by yourself as no one else is needed for a launch?

Still need a stooge to hold the plane for launch.   I don't trust electronic auto start systems after my years in telco central offices.

[MikeCoulombe]

I feel that there is no difference at all between electric or glow set-up, you set your system as best you can and when the ship is launched you are on your own.
How about some comparisons.
Timer + battery = tank size
Governor/speed controller = needle valve
Nut holding the handle = Nut holding handle

Congrats Igor

Mike

[Frank Imbriaco]

For this ole'  1960s retread, electric has  " sparked"( pun intended) my enthusiasm ; exponentially!  Besides my growing fleet of electric Ukie stunt ships, I  recently converted a  6 year old, 2 meter R/C pattern airplane that  I had grown bored with and wanted to sell.
 During the 2006 season,  I put 100+ flights on my Brio. Last year, maybe 25.  This Spring,  I swapped out the OS 140RX, header, tuned pipe and soft mount( sold all that stuff) for a relatively inexpensive  Hi Maxx 6330-210 electric(Plattenburg clone) and oh my God, the power/ performance improvement has been huge !
 I love the plane again ! Since mid- summer, 45 flights and the only negative is that I'm  now tossing a coin as to whether I want to fly e-Ukie or e-R/C on every weather -friendly day.
What I'm trying to say is that  beyond the positives others have mentioned about electric, it has brought the excitement back and I can't wait to fly. The house, lawn  and cars are getting neglected some , but  what the heck.
I advise anyone who hasn't tried it  yet to convert  just one  good condition  glow ship and see if it does the same for you.

[Igor Burger]

May be I can add experience from WCh. Alex Schrek crashed his electric model just before contest, so he had to take his older piped model after long practice with electric. First round was in strong wind, it was visible that WELL trimmed piped model can survive in such condition without any trobles, probably because of the power. He was happy that he can (must :-P) fly his older safe model in those conditions, it gave him confort flying without affraiding of what is going to happen with smaller power. I tried classic prop for piped PA61 on electric, and I find that it needs probably twice the power which I use on my electric model with prop for electric. So the power is still on side of IC. I wouls day that power to electric is ~500W and IC gives up to 1000W in peak.

However that lower power can be better controlled on electric power train. May be it can change in future when battries will be lighter, but progress so far goes to "more C" instead of lower weight. Means that while 25C battery to my model weights 400g, the same battery but 50C is 10% heavier. So I do not think we will go to stronger electric motors quickly.

Regarding rules - yes, IC engines have forbiden active controlling (FAI rules), while electric benefits from electronics, but as I know, so far we only try to get the same 4-2-4 type of run which we know from IC, nothing more, so here I do not see any big advantage of electric, beside one - perfect repeatability, I can use digital settings instead of turning needle or changing pipe length or even mixing more nitro on hot days. But I do not see why we cannot allow active electronic controll of IC, I do not think we can do anything better than we have now - pipe and fuel pressure regulation as we have now, so I do not affarid of technology hunting in ICs.