News:



  • July 18, 2025, 09:56:53 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles  (Read 3380 times)

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6736
Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« on: February 09, 2022, 03:47:13 PM »
This subject I mentioned a while back but not much lately.  I got a call today from Chad Budreau (AMA Executive Director) to talk about the project.  He is going to the AMA counsel with a proposal as soon as he gets a couple bids from local contractors.  We are thinking two circles-approximately 12' diameter pads.  He'd like to get them ready by Nats time.  Allen Goff is working the project on site.  I told him we already have a handful of guys willing to donate some funds to help cover the job.  When he gets some real numbers I will be asking for those who can, reach into their pocket to help.  This should also help him sell the case to the counsel to cover the rest.  Our thanks also go out to Tom Dixon who got this thing started.  I have already taken in a couple donations for the project earlier.

Stay tuned...

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94
 Investing in a Gaza resort if the billionaire doesn't take all my social security check

Online Dan McEntee

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7550
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2022, 08:28:02 AM »
    I'll be watching this with interest. As I remember the discussion got kinda out of hand and went off on a tangent , Just to put in center pads should not be a bog financial deal. I remember some crazy number being  floated around. We put in new center pads on the carrier circle at Buder and the materials for both (a 5 foot diameter pad and another 9 foot pad I think it was, just poured over the existing pads that had sunk,) came to less than $500 bucks I think just buying QuickCrete from Home Depot. I know everything costs more these days but two 12 foot pads that are 4" thick on a gravel base should be pretty reasonable. That's about the same area as a typical driveway.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Istvan Travnik

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 301
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2022, 09:05:55 AM »
Just an idea / possibility:

https://www.gallagherstaging.com/hexagon-ground-protection-rentals/

IMHO: the interlocking of pieces is essential and very useful...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 12:18:58 PM by Istvan Travnik »

Offline Steve Berry

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2022, 09:48:39 AM »
Just an idea / possibility:

https://www.gallagherstaging.com/hexagon-ground-protection-rentals/

That looks to be about a perfect solution. Hold them down with tent pegs or something similar, and when finished, just pick them up and store them. With a smooth surface, could also be used as a runway.

Steve

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6736
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2022, 10:00:02 AM »
These look interesting.  AMA made for us some big plywood discs which we have used the past couple years.  However some aren't comfortable on them and stand beside them.  Maybe slick?  Maybe they feel them move?  Anyway concrete pads are totally stable and require no maintenance .  If we have the chance to do this I think it foolish not to.  Maybe in the future outer rings could be added but these circles are used largely for beginner and intermediate events where grass isn't intimidating like a hard surface might be.  It's also cooler on those blistering hot days to fly over grass but still will be solid to stand on the concrete.  This is what my own field is like and seems the best of both worlds.

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94
 Investing in a Gaza resort if the billionaire doesn't take all my social security check

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1345
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2022, 10:59:32 AM »
As it has been  since the 600x600 was first made, you will have to get permission  from the Free Flight and soaring communities before any mods are to be done. We wanted to add concrete center pads there for the 2004 WCHs but were denied because they would cause a problem for the soaring use of the site.

Good luck.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Joe Gilbert

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 531
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2022, 12:03:22 PM »
We are way past the you part  , the correct people are involved in this all the way to he top.
Joe Gilbert

Online Peter in Fairfax, VA

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2022, 01:44:53 PM »
12' does seem like overkill.  Might even put judges at greater risk from wandering pilots.  We had a near-incident where a bystander loudly suggested a pilot move off the 6' or so center pad at our contest, despite the circle being very carefully marked.  Had the pilot followed the suggestion, judges may well have been struck.

Thoughts?

thanks,

Peter

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6736
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2022, 02:29:46 PM »
12' does seem like overkill.  Might even put judges at greater risk from wandering pilots.  We had a near-incident where a bystander loudly suggested a pilot move off the 6' or so center pad at our contest, despite the circle being very carefully marked.  Had the pilot followed the suggestion, judges may well have been struck.

Thoughts?

thanks,

Peter
12' is sure larger than we need but that's the number Chad was using so i'm not arguing.  If need be for cost we can suggest a little smaller pad if need be.  As far as safety?  Nah-no more than the fully paved Lpad.  We can still paint a 5' circle on the pad.  Judges shouldn't need to be that close anyway, especially in the wide open spaces in Muncie.
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94
 Investing in a Gaza resort if the billionaire doesn't take all my social security check

Offline Paul Smith

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6137
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2022, 03:38:23 PM »
You should consider other CL events that use the area.

AMA Combat uses a 3' radius - 6' diameter.

F2d uses a 2 meter radius, 4 meter diameter, or about 12.6 foot diameter.  AMA combat could mark off 6' within the 12.6 feet.

I doubt that 12.6 feet would hurt stunt in any way.  Use by other CL events might help sell the plan.

Paul Smith

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6736
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2022, 04:15:40 PM »
Actually CL aerobatics is the only group that uses those two circles, at least during Nats week.  Carrier is flown nearby but not on those circles and combat is a good measure away from this spot.  Perhaps local events at the site might use it at other times.

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94
 Investing in a Gaza resort if the billionaire doesn't take all my social security check

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2022, 06:53:38 PM »
https://therubbercompany.com/articles/grass-grow-matting/

A  fairly stiff, rubbery mat with large holes.  Can be used over a gravel base.  Intent is to allow the grass to grow through- allows some cushioning if someone falls.

Phil C
phil Cartier

Offline Fred Cronenwett

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2094
    • Lafayette Esquadrille
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2022, 09:53:41 PM »
We have a concrete center pad at Buder Park for our carrier deck that we poured ourselves. The project cost $500 to buy the concrete and the mixer rental. All of the work was done on a volunteer basis. The difficult part is digging the hole, pouring the gravel down and putting the wood edge down. pouring the concrete is easy especially if you contract to have a concrete truck to deliver it mixed.

Make the center pad as big as you can to support any CL event. Ours is flush with the surrounding grass so that the large mowers could run over the center pad and not have to mow around it.

You do have to trim the grass around the center pad because the grass will grow over the concrete!
Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline BillLee

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1345
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2022, 05:18:58 AM »
We have a concrete center pad at Buder Park for our carrier deck that we poured ourselves. The project cost $500 to buy the concrete and the mixer rental. All of the work was done on a volunteer basis. The difficult part is digging the hole, pouring the gravel down and putting the wood edge down. pouring the concrete is easy especially if you contract to have a concrete truck to deliver it mixed.

Make the center pad as big as you can to support any CL event. Ours is flush with the surrounding grass so that the large mowers could run over the center pad and not have to mow around it.

You do have to trim the grass around the center pad because the grass will grow over the concrete!

AMA does not use volunteer labor. I have a long and direct experience with this and can probably find the e-mail from a former AMA president that says as much.
Bill Lee
AMA 20018

Offline Paul Smith

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6137
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2022, 07:35:40 AM »
How does a concrete pad effect free flighters, does it steal the thermals?

Correctomundo, sir.   This sounds like a lame excuse to say NO.

Free flights from the Detroit area drive 300 mile to test fly at Muncie.  A few concrete circles won't stop 'em.
Paul Smith

Online Dan Berry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2022, 08:08:11 AM »
How does a concrete pad effect free flighters, does it steal the thermals?

A concrete pad only bothers a select few Free Flighters and I'm not one of the select few.
Aluminum bleachers and permanent structures on the other hand are a nuisance and that doesn't actually stop us either.

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7136
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2022, 10:10:15 AM »
At my home field I fly on a 2' square paver to save the grass and mark the center for tree clearance. Took a short time to get use to it but no problems since. 6' dia would be luxury, 12' waste of money imho.
I am used to flying on fully paved surfaces.   I rarely get more than 3' from center on a normal day but when the air is dead calm that 3' is going to be something I have to make sure I don't trip on.  Put this project in perspective, there is hardly a single Nats quality stunter that is not worth more than what this will cost.  Just my opinion.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7136
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2022, 10:16:55 AM »
How does a concrete pad effect free flighters, does it steal the thermals?
There are always a few who are bothered by just about anything that was not their idea, or for that matter just anything.  I see no possible legitimate problem for either FF or soaring.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Trostle

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3397
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2022, 10:42:56 AM »

I see no possible legitimate problem for either FF or soaring.

Ken

For anything Free Flight or soaring,  a 10' diameter concrete pad in the middle of an otherwise barren flying field is just like a tree (of any size) in the middle of an otherwise similar barren flying field.  A free flight model will find a way to impact that concrete pad just as surely as it will find that tree to land in.  There is another hazard to the free flight community is when someone is chasing (or towing) a model, he (or she) might trip on the edge of that concrete pad, even if it is 1/4" above the surface.  Concrete pads are dangerous to the free flight guys.  We in the control line community must be sensitive to the threats the free flight crowd face.

Keith

Offline Richard Imhoff

  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 109
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2022, 11:48:43 AM »
The free flight guys normally fly at the house, it's the RC soaring guys they put the winches in that area but I don't see any problem.
Dick Imhoff  AMA 58502
 
Combat, Racing, Stunt, and big time fun flyer, and Maybe a bit of carrier.

Offline Jerry Eichten

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 58
    • Flying Lines
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2022, 12:18:24 PM »
The center pad at our McMinnville museum circle was 15 feet.  Bigger than necessary, but nice when you needed to walk back during maneuvers.
AMA 7693

Offline bob whitney

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2334
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2022, 12:56:58 PM »
with all the other obstacles on that field i dont think two 12 ft concrete circles will make a diff
rad racer

Offline Istvan Travnik

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 301
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2022, 01:17:19 PM »
Excuse me for the remark,
In multi-purpose circles, where organized FAI Team-Racing (F2C), as well, the middle concrete/asphalt circle has 6 meters (right 20') diameter...
...and the stunt boys walk around reversely by landing.

Online Dan Berry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2022, 02:04:29 PM »
There are always a few who are bothered by just about anything that was not their idea, or for that matter just anything.  I see no possible legitimate problem for either FF or soaring.

Ken

DTing onto concrete has some drawbacks.
That would be the complaint from the select few FFers that would complain.

Online Dan Berry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1105
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2022, 02:05:02 PM »
The free flight guys normally fly at the house, it's the RC soaring guys they put the winches in that area but I don't see any problem.

Actually, they fly from upwind.

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7136
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2022, 02:23:23 PM »
DTing onto concrete has some drawbacks.
That would be the complaint from the select few FFers that would complain.
A concrete pad would be the least hazardous of the many non-grass places I have DT'd into! LL~
You could also trip on it when circle towing.  Life is full of little gotcha's.

I am sure all of us that flew in the multi-disciplined contests of "the Day" have had to dodge a FF or two during a flight.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6736
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2022, 03:59:48 PM »
The McCool circles and the huge gravel parking lot are next to these circles- and better targets for a FF coming down.  I’m also expecting (and will suggest) the pads be basically flush with the ground like mine is to prevent tripping and allow the mower to roll right over without a blade strike.  I’d say lonnnggg odds of spot landing on one of those specs in the pasture.

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94
 Investing in a Gaza resort if the billionaire doesn't take all my social security check

Online Dan McEntee

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7550
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2022, 04:43:25 PM »
The McCool circles and the huge gravel parking lot are next to these circles- and better targets for a FF coming down.  I’m also expecting (and will suggest) the pads be basically flush with the ground like mine is to prevent tripping and allow the mower to roll right over without a blade strike.  I’d say lonnnggg odds of spot landing on one of those specs in the pasture.

Dave

      To make sure they are flush with the ground, start with an X of level string just above ground level and about 25 foot long. Drive a 18" or 20" length of 3/4" pipe into the ground at the intersection as your center, as vertical as you can. Stop when the pipe is 4" tp 6" above grade, whatever you are comfortable with. Lay out the diameter you want, plus 12" to have room to work on the outside. Dig out what you need for the gravel base, and plan on 4" wide material for the form. Start driving in the stakes to hold the form around the circle, and using a nice straight 2X4 and a couple more strings, drive the stakes in until the top pf the stake is 3/4" to 1" lower than the center pipe all the way around. This will give the circle a crown to the concrete so it will drain water off. Add all the stakes you will require for as much concrete you will pour, then level off the gravel base nice and level. Put in whatever wire or re-rod that you want for the pad and secure it. Then comes the pouring of the concrete, and you use the center pipe and the top edge of the form along with that nice straight 2X4 you have to strike off the concrete at the basic level as you pour concrete. Work your way around and get it as flat as you can and at the proper time edge it with an edger and trowel it if it needs it, then broom some swirl in it to make it less slippery in wet weather. When cured,(let it sit at least a week or two) pull the forms, and all the stakes, then back fill with dirt right up to the edge of the concrete, and carefully tamp it as firm as you can get it. It will still settle some over a short time as it gets rained on and you can add more dirt later. When you back fill, take the outer edge out 3, 4 or 5 feet to get that taper as gentle as you can to blend everything in, more if you think it needs it. By the time grass gets established and grown it it will look like it's always been there and nothing to trip over and even a reel type mower can go right over it. You don't want to have the surface of the pad level with the ground to start with because it will settle down over time, and you have the extra advantage of some positive drainage from it by starting a little high. Winch lines can pass over it without catching , and some simple hay bales laying on the pads or any other kind of soft, weather proof material can cushion any DTing F/F model. It's a simple job, not that hard to do but if somethings are not done correctly it can be a waste of effort.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6736
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2022, 06:19:51 PM »
Dan I wish there were a bunch of us close enough to get together and do the job, but AMA will do it through professional contractors.  That is how they do stuff I guess.  Our part will be to help pay for the job.  When we did ours we just dug a hole and filled it until full.  I laid in a bunch of granite countertop samples I got from work and some rebar.  It sits in pure sand river bottom and to date it hasn't sunk or shifted any,  now two years.

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94
 Investing in a Gaza resort if the billionaire doesn't take all my social security check

Online Dan McEntee

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7550
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2022, 06:49:10 PM »
Dan I wish there were a bunch of us close enough to get together and do the job, but AMA will do it through professional contractors.  That is how they do stuff I guess.  Our part will be to help pay for the job.  When we did ours we just dug a hole and filled it until full.  I laid in a bunch of granite countertop samples I got from work and some rebar.  It sits in pure sand river bottom and to date it hasn't sunk or shifted any,  now two years.

Dave

     Well, it will, especially if it's old river bottom. Gravity wins out all the time.!! You just may not be around to see it! But I hope you will!  The square pad at Buder has sunk, and the original carrier center pads were at least 8 or 10 inches below grade. . I know the AMA will do what they want to do and job it out, but the way I described it is what will work, no mater who does it. If you are PAYING some one to do it, they damn well do it like you want it done!!  I don't know what concrete is going for these days, but what ever a typical 2 car drive way costs in that area is about what it should be.
   I can't remember, does water tend to stand out in the grass circle area after a hard rain? If so all the more reason to raise the centers and crown the pavement.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Online Paul Taylor

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6628
  • If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
    • Our Local CL Web Page
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2022, 07:46:09 AM »
According to the guy that is putting in our 10ft pad, asphalt is cheaper than concrete.
Good luck. 👍🏼
Paul
AMA 842917

As my coach and mentor Jim Lynch use to say every time we flew together - “We are making memories

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6736
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2022, 09:50:49 AM »
According to the guy that is putting in our 10ft pad, asphalt is cheaper than concrete.
Good luck. 👍🏼
Asphalt is cheaper.  It does degrade pretty quickly and requires sealing every few years.  Concrete is usually maintenance free and is the better surface.  As long as AMA is talking concrete,  so are we!

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94
 Investing in a Gaza resort if the billionaire doesn't take all my social security check

Offline Fred Cronenwett

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2094
    • Lafayette Esquadrille
Re: Concrete center pads for Muncie grass circles
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2022, 08:35:25 PM »
The carrier deck center pads at Buder Park in St Louis (we have two) are a 5' and a 8' diameter. The 5' diameter is small enough there is not a lot of space to move around. The 8' diameter is the smallest I would make it. Dan is right you use a variety of tools to give the concrete a rough surface which will help with traction. The professional contractor will know how to do that. Dan, myself, John Moll and I think 1 or 2 others helped pour the two small concrete centers at Buder Park. Not difficult but if you can contract it out the faster it will go.

A professional contractor will have it done in one day, make it big as you can and make it concrete. We have to seal the asphalt at Buder every 2 or 3 years to keep it in good shape. I also bet that they will have the concrete truck dump the mix right into the spot without moving the concrete with a wheel barrow.

Fred
Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Tags: