WIND SPEED LIMIT ACCORDING TO AMA RULES?

[Claudio Chacon]

Hello guys!
Which is the wind speed limit to cancel or postpone a Stunt contest according to AMA rules?
(I fly under FAI rules, which is 9 meters per second)

I couldn't find this data reading the AMA regulations.

Thanks!

[Dan McEntee]

   I don't think I have ever heard of one. The main weather issue that affects a contest is lightning and/or heavy rain and storm conditions. If lightning is seen or known to be in the area there is a time limit to wait before flying can begin again. If during that time limit another lightning strike is seen, the clock starts over again. To postpone or cancel a contest it takes a 100% vote of the contestants. or almost a natural disaster! I used to attend and compete in The Great Race in the Chicago area. This is a cross country sailplane race against the clock on an approximate 50 mile course. One year the wind was absolutely the highest I had even seen at any kind of contest, at least in the 30 mile per hour sustained  range with clear skies, and at the morning pilot's meeting on the second day, a vote to postpone or cancel the days competition was brought up by the Contest Director, and only one entrant, who I believe was Larry Jolley, voted to continue, so we all had to stay at the field. This was the only time I have ever been involved with an AMA sanctioned event where this has occurred. I guess it is up to the contest director or event director to make that decision on whether to poll the contestants. I'm making these statements without researching the AMA rule book and just going by memory and experience. I have attended and participated in AMA sanctioned contests of all kinds and sizes since 1978 and other than the above mentioned event, have never seen an event altered in any way by wind conditions. It's up to the contestants to decide if they want to fly or pass.
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Claudio Chacon]

Hi Dan!
Well...I wasn't aware about that "NO WIND SPEED LIMIT" situation...pretty tough conditions...
It's a MAN game!

Thank you very much for taking the time to post such a detailed reply!
Much appreciated...

Claudio.

[Ken Culbertson]

   I don't think I have ever heard of one.....

It is in the CD/ED guide.  40mph unless the CD/ED says otherwise.  I have competed in 25mph and used it as a reason to see a shrink.  I cannot fathom putting a PA ship up in 40mph but I am willing to bet someone has.  Wind Flying doesn't count.  I heard someone on Sparky's video stream saying there were gusts up to 30 yesterday.  What I saw looked more like 15-20 but I wasn't there.

Ken

[Dennis Toth]

From what was said during the fly-off and top 20 was that the wind needs to be sustained over 20 mph. I don't know if the pilots have any say in it, I think it's the CD's call.

Best,  DennisT

[Claudio Chacon]

From what was said during the fly-off and top 20 was that the wind needs to be sustained over 20 mph. I don't know if the pilots have any say in it, I think it's the CD's call.

Best,  DennisT

That makes sense, Dennis!
It is the same wind speed limit as in FAI rules, although there are no written references in the AMA rule book, as Dan says (and I noticed).

Thank you!

[Claudio Chacon]

It is in the CD/ED guide.  40mph unless the CD/ED says otherwise.  I have competed in 25mph and used it as a reason to see a shrink.  I cannot fathom putting a PA ship up in 40mph but I am willing to bet someone has.  Wind Flying doesn't count.  I heard someone on Sparky's video stream saying there were gusts up to 30 yesterday.  What I saw looked more like 15-20 but I wasn't there.

Ken

OH! 40 mph is an insane amount of wind to fly CL Stunt!   
I would rather be under the bed!

[Ken Culbertson]

OH! 40 mph is an insane amount of wind to fly CL Stunt!   
I would rather be under the bed!

Unless you are wind flying then it is really fun!

Ken

[Dave_Trible]

The accepted standard is 20 mph sustained for one minute.  We had readings during the Top 5 yesterday no less than 17 with gusts to 24 mph.  After two rounds (of three) I asked of one of the fliers if the desired to go on.  He immediately responded ‘yes’.  All it really would take is that one yes vote.  That is also what happened at the Team Trials two cycles ago in Dallas.  There were a couple close encounters with the ground during those top 5 rounds and one of the Senior pilots lost his airplane.  Only Orestes put up a flight to claim the Walker Cup.  It was already very windy and a strong cell showed on radar as I pulled out of Muncie this morning.  Ran in and out of rain all day on my way back to KC.  I have no regrets about my call.  I could not ask the judges,  helpers nor contestants to try enduring a contest today.

Dave

[Joseph Patterson]

 Dave is correct 20 mph sustained 1 min.- is what the ED used.
 The FAI TT  in Dallas a few years ago winds were sometimes as high as 25-29, but none lasted a min., but the gusts would repeat  up to several times a min sometimes. It was really brutal! One observer with a wind meter reported gusts of 32. 
       Doug

[Brett Buck]

Hello guys!
Which is the wind speed limit to cancel or postpone a Stunt contest according to AMA rules?
(I fly under FAI rules, which is 9 meters per second)

I couldn't find this data reading the AMA regulations.

      The AMA rule book "general" section shows 40 mph sustained - which is far beyond the capability of current stunt planes.

    The stunt criterion we have used in the recent past is 20 mph sustained over 1 minute. That is pretty extreme but flyable.

     Yesterday, numerous observers got 24-25 sustained for extended periods - which is, obviously, also flyable, since it was done (and at times in the past), but is near the limit. Strongest I have personally flown in  *successfully* was about that (2003 NATs Top 20, first round and 2015 Golden State second round). I have crapped out on several occasions above that (29 with gusts to 35 at the 2003 NATs Top 20, second round).

    Yesterdays action was an absolute master's class in how to fly in the wind and what the current standards are for flying in the wind - essentially, very little perceptible fudging of shapes and sizes even in 25 mph winds.

   Brett

[Matt Colan]

If the contest is postponed for wind, when does it restart? Is it a 20 minute delay? 30? Or until there are no longer any gusts above 20 for that one minute sustained?

Also I completely agree with Brett’s assessment of yesterday’s flying. I was on the edge of my seat watching it all happen. I would’ve rather been in it flying but that was some outstanding flying by everyone!

[Trostle]

If the contest is postponed for wind, when does it restart? Is it a 20 minute delay? 30? Or until there are no longer any gusts above 20 for that one minute sustained?

When the ED/CD gets involved to stop the contest for the wind, it will be his call if and when the competition resumes.

Keith

[Dan McEntee]

If the contest is postponed for wind, when does it restart? Is it a 20 minute delay? 30? Or until there are no longer any gusts above 20 for that one minute sustained?

Also I completely agree with Brett’s assessment of yesterday’s flying. I was on the edge of my seat watching it all happen. I would’ve rather been in it flying but that was some outstanding flying by everyone!

     That is an interesting question and is probably answered in the same section that Brett found the 40 MPH data, and besides C/L stunt models I don't know of any kind of "typical" model airplane that could handle that kind of wind other than these purpose built sailplanes that guys are flying in like a vortex so that they can hit incredible speeds over 400 MPH or more! (Talk a wind up in the wind!!) The cross country event I described I know was in the high 20 to 30 MPH range and was just lain uncomfortable to be out in it. It was held in June just like this NATS and in the outskirts of Chicago around Aroura I think, so subject to the same lake effects on the weather as Muncie. It was a nice, sunny day but like I said the wind was relentless. Guys were stacking there model boxes up to create wind breaks to sit behind or behind cars and vans. The team I was with was flying a Sagitta XC model with 4 piece wings and we decided to gamble on taking the wing tips off, ballasted the model to the full FAI weight limit ( I think was 11 pounds??) and we took a test flight. The model was surprisingly VERY stable and with all the wind, we were getting higher launches, using all of the available winch line. We made several attempts at the course and we were only able to get a mile or so down the road but the distance counted. After a while a few other teams tried the same thing but not all had the same success. We got one of the furthest distances that day and by the scoring rules finished on to for the day and pulled our over all standing up quite a bit for the whole event! It's amazing what you will do when bored enough! The conditions held throughout the day when flying ended at the 4 pm quitting time, so there never was another pilots meeting, so that part of the question never came up.

     Usually wind comes with storms and such, and also brings in the heavy rain and lightning, so that makes a decision easy. Like I mentioned before, I have been competing in all kinds of AMA events over more than 40 years and that was the only time where straight line wind was ever a factor in calling for a vote to cancel or postpone an event so I guess it is a pretty rare occurrence. I had trouble with getting a feel for direction just watching video and I am curious as to the direction it was blowing.  Was it blowing away from the pavilion, which is I think north?  How much turbulence was associated with it? I have flown on the end of the L-Pad nearest the grass circles and a wind coming up and over that rise can make some difficult rotors and turbulence. Straight line wind is one thing, but in some locations 10 to 15 MPH blowing through trees and over and around buildings can make flying for anyone nearly impossible!

    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

I remember VSC one year when I didn't get a flight in Classic the wind was blowing so hard.  It was Joe Gilbert first year there if I remember right and flew a flight just so he could make top twenty.  I was holding my plane and pit box down waiting for my flight when it was called.   Have also flown at Wichita KS when I was wondering if my .018 lines were going to hold.

[Ken Culbertson]

.... but in some locations 10 to 15 MPH blowing through trees and over and around buildings can make flying for anyone nearly impossible!

    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

So you *have* flown at Dallas Hobby Park!

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

So you *have* flown at Dallas Hobby Park!

Ken

    No, but I fly regularly out of Buder Park in the St. Louis area and I would like to go crazy with a chain saw there and remove a bunch of trees, and then it might be bearable. Flying at the SIG contest at SIG field could either be feast or famine. If the wind was out of due north or south, right down the runway, it wasn't bad and is where I really learned to fly in any kind of windy conditions. But if it came from the east, it came over a rise at the edge of the runway that made things interesting but not as bad as if it came from the west and over the rows of hangers there that were just a few yards off the runway. I understand that the Garden State Circle Burners was a real vortex generator and from looking at pictures of it you have to wonder how the trees just never got in there way!! One of these days I'll win the lottery and buy property to build the perfect all encompassing flying site where the C/L circles will have no obstructions around it, where there will be enough room for small F/F operations. and a building far enough away from each with a decent Cat-2 ceiling height to fly indoor F/F whenever I wanted to!! Yeah, that's the ticket!!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[BillLee]

How was the wind speed measured? In my experience, most estimates are way higher than reality .

[Dave_Trible]

Bill I was looking at a small anemometer.  Not sure how accurate.  The way the wind pulses most of the time up and down you'd probably have to have a wind speed average of 25+ for the meter to hold one minute above 20 mph.  I do know wind guess-stimations are usually way over measured speeds.  Most ACTUALLY pack it up and go home at around 10-15 mph.

Dave

[Claudio Chacon]

Okay guys,

Now it is clear to me: if you want to enter any of AMA CLPA contests, YOU BETTER BE READY! 
GO BIG OR GO HOME! 


Thanks to each and everyone of you for your input.

See you around...

[BillLee]

Bill I was looking at a small anemometer.  Not sure how accurate.  The way the wind pulses most of the time up and down you'd probably have to have a wind speed average of 25+ for the meter to hold one minute above 20 mph.  I do know wind guess-stimations are usually way over measured speeds.  Most ACTUALLY pack it up and go home at around 10-15 mph.

Dave

Reason I asked, Dave, was that Monday, when the wind was the worst, I used a Kestrel 4000 to measure the wind speed. Everyone was saying "15-20 with gusts to 25", and the reality was 10-11 with an occasional gust to 15.

Bill

[Tom Luciano]

I have a $20 one from amazon. I checked at 20 mph with my car and it was pretty darn close.

[Brett Buck]

Reason I asked, Dave, was that Monday, when the wind was the worst, I used a Kestrel 4000 to measure the wind speed. Everyone was saying "15-20 with gusts to 25", and the reality was 10-11 with an occasional gust to 15.

   On the L-Pad, or down in the hollow by the racing circles?  Even the AMA on-line anemometer had 20 sustained.

   While you are certainly right about people tending to overestimate/exaggerate, plenty of people have accurate anemometers and know how to use them, along with air density meters and all associated weather phenomenon. We know how fast it was really blowing at various points.

     Brett

[Steve Fitton]

Are there parameters for the measurement? such as height above ground the measurement must be made?

[Brett Buck]

Are there parameters for the measurement? such as height above ground the measurement must be made?

   Not really, typically I get the meter at about 6 feet and stand downwind of it. Local deviations and shear near the ground definitely affect the reading.

     Brett

[john e. holliday]

If contestants think the wind is to fast take a vote on stopping the event/contest.   I remember sittin in the sandwich shop across from the Wichita circles watching the rain going horizontal as well as trash faster than the cars going down the road.   By the time it cleared we all took a vote and called the contest as there was not enough time left in the day.

[Bill Calkins]

I once wrecked my plane at a contest, Winds were 50 mph. Oh did I mention that the  plane was  CARRIER and I lost it in the HIGHER speed?