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Author Topic: Common core  (Read 15431 times)

Online RC Storick

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Common core
« on: March 14, 2016, 08:04:28 PM »
I know this is a model site but if they are teaching this kind of math how will a kid read a ruler? Look at tese photos and tell em what you think.



Brett Buck: Do you understand this thinking?

In the Navy we did a BTB and this problem as written makes me think their answer was wrong. According to the common core logic the problem would read; Hand is to foot as finger is to elbow.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Common core
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2016, 08:12:11 PM »

 Yeah Robert, this is the "sense" of the people calling the shots these days. We're all in BIG trouble.  y1
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Re: Common core
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2016, 08:14:16 PM »
Well I did a search for common core to see what they were teaching and this was just a few problems.

While Bob builds his airplane he needs a piece of wood 30 inches long,would it be right to say 24 inches is close enough?
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Offline Zuriel Armstrong

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Re: Common core
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 08:15:32 PM »
Boy was I wrong...I thought common core was a foam wing for a Nobler🤓
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Common core
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 08:19:23 PM »
I understand:  Common Core = Political Red Herring.

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Common core
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 08:21:33 PM »
I see it as a "work-around" to teach how to do simple math in your head. The problem is that the real world uses $10 calculators. Which happens to be an "app" on most 10 year old's cell phones. But they don't teach how to count back your change the way real cashiers always used to do. Apparently, that wouldn't make any sense to the board of education.  R%%%%  Steve
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: Common core
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 08:34:04 PM »
It's all BS. 95+% of the so called math teachers can not even do common core math. When a student asks a question. Their told to sit down and do their work.
 Thank you. The useless Department of Education. Talk about wasting tax dollars...

Offline mike londke

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Re: Common core
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 08:38:33 PM »
They are teaching that bull$#it here in Tennessee. Fortunately we moved to a county where they teach a modified version of CC math. Some old some new. I have seen some papers come home that Samuel (a 7 year old) had to explain to me how the answers were derived. I was scratching my head. He seems to get it though.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Common core
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2016, 08:43:34 PM »
Sad to say, that car looks more attractive than most these days.

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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Common core
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2016, 09:25:38 PM »
While Bob builds his airplane he needs a piece of wood 30 inches long,would it be right to say 24 inches is close enough?

 Apparently so, until something fails causing a crash, at which point it must be the fault of someone else, providing Bob with a viable lawsuit. D>K
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Offline Norm Faith Jr.

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Re: Common core
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2016, 10:26:32 PM »
Call it what you want, "common core, new math, old math," what ever...I'm all in favor of young people learning math. After graduating and upon starting my career in aviation...did it dawn on me about what my teachers were trying to make me understand. Who me? "Geometry? I don't need no stinking geometry!" Where will you ever have a need for it? So what do I wind up doing? Working as an Aviation Specialist using geometry everyday to do my job, along with decimals, fractions, weights, percentages and a little physics. What ever it takes to teach an applicable math, I'm in favor of. What I'm not in favor of is what is included in common core, "subtle, social adjustments." In my opinion that is the parent's responsibility...Yes! Yes! I know...that word "responsibility." I taught Aviation Technology for eleven years for a technical college. For eleven years I had to teach high school graduates, basic math, so they could understand how to read a ruler and that was after I had to teach them how to read... ???
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Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Common core
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2016, 10:27:55 PM »
I hear all this stuff about CC, but Samantha is in tenth grade and is doing math I did in college. It's not the teachers, or the kids, its the parents. I went to parents teacher conference last week and the was maybe 20 parent's there. I time I went and they told me she was not turning in home work, I ask the teacher for all home work for the last 9 weeks. Samantha was not to happy doing home work for the week of Christmas break. Does any think I ever got that report again.

She is now getting invitations from college's to visit them. One was Ball State, I could fly when I visit. The last one she got was from Harvard medical school, I knew most of you here are Yale men. So you can believe what you hear if you want. I know the truth, I lived the old way. Samantha has the same teacher's as the 48% that didn't graduate. It has to be them union teacher's, that only teach girls named Samantha.

 Steve

Offline EddyR

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Re: Common core
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 06:17:03 AM »
I do not like common core but I do understand it. I have grand kids who are in HOME SCHOOL and they have to learn it to pass state tests.
Common core is easy compared to this.
 http://www.hpmuseum.org/root.htm
 I was one of less than 100 techs who repaired the Friden square root machine. I taught in there school in Rochester also. It took three months to learn this machine.
  I showed my 10 year old granddaughter this Friden page and she grasped it very quickly.
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Offline Brad Smith

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Re: Common core
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2016, 10:52:15 AM »
They teach this common core crap but wont teach them how to keep a check book or about loans and interest rates. I found out my grandson who lives with us could not sign his name they stopped teaching the kids around here how to write cursive, my wife had to get him some books so we could teach him how to sing his name to get his driving permit.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2016, 11:40:48 AM »

Brett Buck: Do you understand this thinking?

  It comes up with the right answer, eventually, and I can see how it works. However, its far more complex than normal subtraction, offers no particular insight to the process, and is no less prone to error (probably MORE prone to error) than doing it conventionally. It also takes far longer. So no, I cannot see why you would bother to teach someone this method.

    Brett

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Common core
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2016, 12:27:40 PM »
Lost years ago to the ex wife who trashed a lot of y stuff was my dad's 4th grade math primer

If you could complete with competence that one book you could enter any college today

Wish I had it to post some examples taught at a primary school, Marysville Wa circa 1937

first many pages were all devoted to addition, subtraction, division, and multiplication backed up by the flash card method of memorization....no tricks or weird derivative associations

3/4 was all word problems, mostly agricultural. Ideas like crop yield, cost per bushel, transport fees, picking fees, taxes (percentages) and the problem usually required mastery of all math function to derive the correct answer
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Common core
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2016, 12:43:53 PM »
I get sick of the sticks and dots on my daughter's 2nd grade homework.  They are dwelling too long on crutches instead of driving memorization (and I HATE memorization!!!) Most of the first half of this year, and all of first grade was getting the CONCEPT of addition and subtraction.  Also they were shown about 50 different CRUTCHES to the process (OK, I exaggerate a little, probably somewhere over 5 and less than 15).

Now on money they are counting money and doing change as count back which is pretty similar to how I was taught.  FINALLY they started ungrouping and borrowing, as well as carrying the extras.  There are some formatting differences but it is no different than what I learned in the 80's at least.  Then there are some seemingly weird ones such as column addition where each column is spread out on its own line to be added back together... not vastly different than multiplying large numbers by hand with pencil and paper.

FINALLY I can say that "neatness counts" and "it is simple book keeping, keep track of the parts by keeping things neat" ...  The school year is entering the 4th quarter after spring break.

I think the teacher is doing a good job, just she is mandated to present these different methods, which are not _bad_ so much as _overwhelming_... 

Addition and subtraction are not hard, they are, in fact, EASY.  Math in general is easy since there are fixed rules that DO NOT CHANGE.  Try explaining that one about reading and spelling.  The rules are different depending on the language root of the word.  The "scary" part of math is there is no way around rote memorization of the basic facts in order to be quick enough for math to be functional.

At least reading is PHONICS based with only minimal emphasis on sight words (I could do entirely without the sight words though). 

Phil

Offline Steve Thompson

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Re: Common core
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2016, 01:16:00 PM »
Quite often in math classes you learn a cumbersome method only to learn a simple more elegant method the next day.  It helps you appreciate the "shortcuts" that you can then use as tools.  This method does not seem to provide the best tool.  To subtract a 2 digit number from a 3 digit number, you have to add four multi numbers.  Imagine working with 10 digit numbers.  The old borrow and remainder methods works pretty well and you only work with 1 digit numbers at a time.  Do they only teach this method only and not the "old school" method?

Offline John Park

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Re: Common core
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2016, 01:43:28 PM »
To paraphrase Wordsworth: 'O Richard P Feynman, thou shouldst be living at this hour'.  Feynman would have had a thing or two to say about this ridiculous over-complication of a basically simple concept.  Not that anybody in authority seemed to take any notice of him when, back in the 1980s, he was criticising the almost equally absurd mathematics teaching that was being foisted upon poor suffering pupils (or 'students' as they're being called these days) in the name of progress.  It's a wonder anybody knows anything any more.  Okay, end of diatribe.  I'll go and have a nice lie-down in a darkened room, and hope it makes me feel better.

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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Common core
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2016, 02:22:07 PM »
It looks like the ghost of Rube Goldberg was consulted to help Common Core with arithmetic.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2016, 02:26:52 PM »
Quite often in math classes you learn a cumbersome method only to learn a simple more elegant method the next day.  It helps you appreciate the "shortcuts" that you can then use as tools. 

   I think that is a good idea, as long as the more cumbersome method provides additional insight into the problem. I don't see that in this case.

   Brett

Offline Richard Entwhistle 823412

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Re: Common core
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2016, 02:47:00 PM »
While at Ohio State in 1962 I took a course in topology.  I passed but just by the skin of my teeth.  Only a few in the class seemed to have a handle on what was going on. About halfway through the quarter a student remarked that he just could not follow the logic of the course.  There were many student who said they felt the same way.  The instructor thought for a moment or two and then said "It's like jazz, you dig it or you don't."  Common Core-I don't dig it!

Later
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Re: Common core
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2016, 04:21:18 PM »
  It comes up with the right answer, eventually, and I can see how it works. However, its far more complex than normal subtraction, offers no particular insight to the process, and is no less prone to error (probably MORE prone to error) than doing it conventionally. It also takes far longer. So no, I cannot see why you would bother to teach someone this method.

    Brett

That's what I thought more steps = more chance for error. The other problem is more disturbing to me is 24 inches close enough to 30 by their thinking.
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Re: Common core
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2016, 04:29:41 PM »
  I think that is a good idea, as long as the more cumbersome method provides additional insight into the problem. I don't see that in this case.

   Brett

The Korean's teach a thing called Chisanbop (spelling) counting on your fingers and hands where you have a 99 count of fingers and I would bet a Korean kid who knows this system would beat our current student of the same age using a calculator or common core.

I bet you guys on the way to mars don't say well we are off by a 1/4 mile that's close enough.
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Re: Common core
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2016, 04:30:43 PM »
It looks like the ghost of Rube Goldberg was consulted to help Common Core with arithmetic.

 LL~ LL~ too funny  LL~ LL~
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Common core
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2016, 04:34:40 PM »
I had no idea what "topology" is (still don't!), so looked it up. I read multiple definitions, most of which helped me very little. Finally came to this definition, and now I get it. Well, at least it helps me understand the logic of Common Core math.

"topology    (tə-pŏl'ə-jē)  
The mathematical study of the geometric properties that are not normally affected by changes in the size or shape of geometric figures. In topology, a donut and a coffee cup with a handle are equivalent shapes, because each has a single hole."  

I pretty much liked Geometry, Trig and Algebra...had some crappy teachers. I used all of them in my life's work as a machinist, often daily. However, life is an "open book test", so as my engine-ear brother said, engineering is largely understanding the concepts and knowing where to look for the hardware you need. With math, a Scientific calculator and a small cheat sheet will get you through working with the Trig. The Geometry is more important, in many ways, but they insist on memorizing and proving all the theorems. That seems overboard. Remembering the rules and accepting that they are TRUTH is just fine, IMO.  n~ Steve

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2016, 08:36:50 PM »
The Korean's teach a thing called Chisanbop (spelling) counting on your fingers and hands where you have a 99 count of fingers and I would bet a Korean kid who knows this system would beat our current student of the same age using a calculator or common core.

I bet you guys on the way to mars don't say well we are off by a 1/4 mile that's close enough.

   There are always errors in various measurements, and estimating and evaluating the effects of measurement errors is a very complex mathematics problem. That's somewhat different than simple integer subtraction, where there is one and only one correct answer.

   Also, since things like navigating to Mars involve complex computer calculations, the accuracy of the computer calculations themselves can become an issue. A 32-bit floating point number (a common format) has a resolution of approximately one part in about 8.4 million. Sounds pretty good until you have to express the distance to Mars (33.6 million miles at the very closest). At that distance, you can only represent the distance to about 4 miles. Still sounds pretty close but try adjusting it by 2 miles based on some estimate you have  - if you try to add 2 miles the calculation just disappears.  There are other kinds of extended-precision numbers that do a lot better, but you have to be careful not to let these sorts of precision errors build up in repetitive calculations.

   Any sort of system like navigating to Mars has to include some methods to correct the estimate from various means, but in the middle of the trajectory they would be thrilled to be able to locate it within 10 miles. They get more accurate as the spacecraft approaches Mars, because they can aim a camera or other sensor at the planet, see where it appears in the sensor, and if it is not where it was expected, use the difference to correct the estimate. I doubt it ever gets as good as 1/4 mile, so you have to make the mission tolerant of that sort of error.

   The one that got crashed into Mars (ostensibly because of a metric/English conversion problem) actually crashed because of trying to save money on the support of the mission, they disregarded and never bothered to investigate the indications of the error from the estimate correcting methods until it was too late to fix it.

   Brett

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Common core
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2016, 08:53:40 PM »
Prior to this one, was not familiar with "Common Core", although I now think I understand it:  a government program designed to "dumb-down" mathematics for today's helpless & hopeless masses -- including those incapable of making change without the assistance of computerized cash registers.

Either that, or I'm just an old fa#t who was forced to lean math the old fashioned way, i.e. via hard work.

At any rate, "Common Core" sounds like another Obama/Socialist thing.

Wrong?  Please enlighten me. 
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2016, 09:01:01 PM »
Yea, it is a Obama / Socialist thing that was pushed by Jeb Bush.  (Corporate socialism)

  Many of the current establishment Republicans are indistinguishable from and are enamored of European politicians, virtually all of which are socialists of some stripe, whether they admit it or not.

    Brett

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Common core
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2016, 10:33:31 PM »
At any rate, "Common Core" sounds like another Obama/Socialist thing.
Wrong?  Please enlighten me.  

C'mon, Mike. Obama isn't a socialist, and this has nothing to do with him or anything here, as you well know. So please just cut out the political crap. It's divisive. On topic...

I taught secondary math and some higher math for a couple decades, but never encountered "Common Core" until working in a special after-school program about a year ago. I wasn't super impressed. The idea behind this example apparently is not so much to teach computation, but to aid in understanding why we do certain things. I agree with Brett that this seems to have little value in either regard. What bothered me most about the Common Core approach was that the students were doing too many things at one time to be able to learn it. They did come back to review regularly, but that only disrupted the too many things they were doing at future times. Why they chose an example (above) where round off error cancelled and made the estimate and "logical" conclusion wrong is beyond me. Anyway, when I tried to help 3rd and 4th graders with their Common Core stuff after school last year, it appeared that I had many who had chosen one approach and rejected others. They were on "different pages" and confusion was common in these groups at that school.

Learning of math is best structured so that we first learn the "whys" and "hows", finally memorizing key results (like multiplication tables or differentials) for subsequent uses. Then rote memorization must happen, or a kid is stymied for the future. So Common Core's purpose seems sound, but their implementation and execution sometimes approach the absurd - IMO. That humans have different learning rates and styles makes this more complicated, although I suspect these folks are trying to address that...not too well (again IMO).

I do remember the "New Math" that came along just after I completed my studies. As I recall, it seemed an attempt to teach to all students those things that we good math students had learned as short cuts or learning aids on our own. That didn't seem so bad to me, but I could see that there were students for which this was not productive, but rather diverting and confusing. Nonetheless I taught my 8th Grade "Dummy math" students (before 'Political Correctness' and full realization of how that jargon hurt us - There IS a place for PC!) how to add and subtract in all number bases from 2 to 10. I don't now know how I accomplished that, but many of them liked it, and these were the kids who were not expected to be able to do this kind of thing. SO, sometimes I have to step back and re-analyze what I think kids can do and should try to do.

SO...I'm with a lot of you on Common Core, but I have to suggest that you not completely dismiss it on the basis of some pretty (seemingly) damning examples. Math is for more than simple computations and is pretty hobbled, if that's all one expects and asks of it.

For instance, Geometry has been mentioned. What was not understood about proofs is critical. Geometry for many years was - and probably still is - the only high school course that taught logic and its use. I'll ask you to trust me on this, but I graduated from a small university that was founded as an honors college for Michigan State and had an exciting, incredibly qualified faculty. I took a philosophy course (that department was quite respected in its time) in logic. The members of my class were top students from the approximately 50% who had not flunked out in their extremely challenging first year. They ALL "knew" that they could think logically and express themselves on paper. Yet my "A-" (3.7) was the only grade in that class higher than a 2.0. I credit that to my UICSM Geometry class, in which we proved almost all of our theorems. I taught all of my high school students - laboriously - to do the proofs offered in the course. I look at the shoddy logic that goes on in running and just living in this country and think, "Why didn't these folks learn the simplest logic." Answer, because no one offered them the chance, and sloppy and self-gratifying rhetoric had to suffice.

A final example from 18 years ago: Sometimes in the inner city I was blessed with a small class of very able Advanced Math students. Our math curriculum had changed texts to a series called "Integrated Mathematics." That was not related to social integration or calculus, but rather consisted of various kinds of math being used together. That mkeant that it had the same disadvantages as the "Common Core" approach seems to have. One year, while we were studying matrices as a method of solving several equations in as many unknowns, the book included ways of seeing things, but too few assigned problems involving actually finding solutions. About half the class was starting to "get it," but the others were floundering. So I copied several sets of problems from my Dad's old high school algebra book (ca. 1931), plus three pages of its explanation of how to do them and passed them out. The next day, the home work came in and the kids asked, "Why didn't you give this to us in the first place?" They already knew what the columns of numbers represented, so why should they not immediately learn the algorithm? Dad's old method solved their problems, and they didn't have to go off in all directions unprepared. I still remember the looks on their faces, when they realized that they could each actually do this stuff.

So I'm with you on a lot of this, but these kids still need to know what we learned in our 1st - 3rd grade "Think and Do" books, where we drew lines and other grouping symbols to understand adding, subtracting, and multiplying. Then long division was harder, but possible to learn. There was a lot of that in Common Core, but really too much sometimes and, yes, sometimes it didn't seem well conceived.  Common Core has some good ideas, but I think they've sometimes gone a bit overboard, without enough grounding in use of what they're supposed to learn. Settle on one or, at most, a couple ways to learn what an operation means, and then teach "the way to do it." That would save some broken students, and some parents would get along better in overcoming their own fears and helping out.

SK

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Common core
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2016, 02:39:57 AM »
Common core is about standards. Don't know about your States but here we have people who want to home, online school, and others school's. This is there right, but you must have a core. I never read the catcher in the rye, but I know all them words. Samantha is in geometry and moving in to trig. I seen her home work and when she was done with all the problems and plotted them out it made a heart. Dont know if she will get a job making hearts, but see thought it was cool. It keeps things a little interesting. The three R's is what it is about.

Most people don't  like cc is because the can't do the work them self. If you had a better education teach your kids or grand kids. They will be ahead of the game.

Steve

Offline Annette Elmore

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Re: Common core
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2016, 06:36:02 AM »
I loved French language lessons in school - and was very good at it.

Then we got a teacher who insisted only French was spoken from when we went in the schoolroom until we left - never learnt another jot.

Annette

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Common core
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2016, 09:51:27 AM »
Steve is right about Common Core's intent, and I fully support the purpose of having a common core of skills and information. I'm not convinced that the program's methods are all well conceived and that it works well for all levels of student. Their materials (student work books, enrichment materials, teachers' materials, and testing materials) seemed nicely packaged and conceived as a whole, EXCEPT for the lack of classroom time and final skill materials (again IMO). The better students can grasp all and keep up, but remediation and just keeping the less able kids abreast of things seemed a huge challenge to me. One significant thing about my perspective though is that my kids were tired (after a full day), mostly lower ability students. Unable to group by ability (the law here), I would write the curriculum differently, with extra work/activities for the kids who were able (sort of a legal grouping by ability).

Another thing: sometimes when we make materials really lavish, we may be limiting young people's development of abstract thinking skills That's a conflict between catering to learning styles (important) and "no pain, no gain." In my experience the methods of satisfying these needs vary with the teacher's strengths and things hard to measure.

SK

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Common core
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2016, 10:36:59 AM »
Well all the math I got in grade school and a little in high school did not prepare me for this on.    101 = 5    A = 10   Counting the frame shelves in a central office started with zero(0) and went to F.    H^^
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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Common core
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2016, 12:50:03 PM »
C'mon, Mike. Obama isn't a socialist, and this has nothing to do with him or anything here, as you well know. So please just cut out the political crap. It's divisive. On topic...

I taught secondary math and some higher math for a couple decades, but never encountered "Common Core" until working in a special after-school program about a year ago. I wasn't super impressed. The idea behind this example apparently is not so much to teach computation, but to aid in understanding why we do certain things. I agree with Brett that this seems to have little value in either regard. What bothered me most about the Common Core approach was that the students were doing too many things at one time to be able to learn it. They did come back to review regularly, but that only disrupted the too many things they were doing at future times. Why they chose an example (above) where round off error cancelled and made the estimate and "logical" conclusion wrong is beyond me. Anyway, when I tried to help 3rd and 4th graders with their Common Core stuff after school last year, it appeared that I had many who had chosen one approach and rejected others. They were on "different pages" and confusion was common in these groups at that school.

Learning of math is best structured so that we first learn the "whys" and "hows", finally memorizing key results (like multiplication tables or differentials) for subsequent uses. Then rote memorization must happen, or a kid is stymied for the future. So Common Core's purpose seems sound, but their implementation and execution sometimes approach the absurd - IMO. That humans have different learning rates and styles makes this more complicated, although I suspect these folks are trying to address that...not too well (again IMO).

I do remember the "New Math" that came along just after I completed my studies. As I recall, it seemed an attempt to teach to all students those things that we good math students had learned as short cuts or learning aids on our own. That didn't seem so bad to me, but I could see that there were students for which this was not productive, but rather diverting and confusing. Nonetheless I taught my 8th Grade "Dummy math" students (before 'Political Correctness' and full realization of how that jargon hurt us - There IS a place for PC!) how to add and subtract in all number bases from 2 to 10. I don't now know how I accomplished that, but many of them liked it, and these were the kids who were not expected to be able to do this kind of thing. SO, sometimes I have to step back and re-analyze what I think kids can do and should try to do.

SO...I'm with a lot of you on Common Core, but I have to suggest that you not completely dismiss it on the basis of some pretty (seemingly) damning examples. Math is for more than simple computations and is pretty hobbled, if that's all one expects and asks of it.

For instance, Geometry has been mentioned. What was not understood about proofs is critical. Geometry for many years was - and probably still is - the only high school course that taught logic and its use. I'll ask you to trust me on this, but I graduated from a small university that was founded as an honors college for Michigan State and had an exciting, incredibly qualified faculty. I took a philosophy course (that department was quite respected in its time) in logic. The members of my class were top students from the approximately 50% who had not flunked out in their extremely challenging first year. They ALL "knew" that they could think logically and express themselves on paper. Yet my "A-" (3.7) was the only grade in that class higher than a 2.0. I credit that to my UICSM Geometry class, in which we proved almost all of our theorems. I taught all of my high school students - laboriously - to do the proofs offered in the course. I look at the shoddy logic that goes on in running and just living in this country and think, "Why didn't these folks learn the simplest logic." Answer, because no one offered them the chance, and sloppy and self-gratifying rhetoric had to suffice.

A final example from 18 years ago: Sometimes in the inner city I was blessed with a small class of very able Advanced Math students. Our math curriculum had changed texts to a series called "Integrated Mathematics." That was not related to social integration or calculus, but rather consisted of various kinds of math being used together. That mkeant that it had the same disadvantages as the "Common Core" approach seems to have. One year, while we were studying matrices as a method of solving several equations in as many unknowns, the book included ways of seeing things, but too few assigned problems involving actually finding solutions. About half the class was starting to "get it," but the others were floundering. So I copied several sets of problems from my Dad's old high school algebra book (ca. 1931), plus three pages of its explanation of how to do them and passed them out. The next day, the home work came in and the kids asked, "Why didn't you give this to us in the first place?" They already knew what the columns of numbers represented, so why should they not immediately learn the algorithm? Dad's old method solved their problems, and they didn't have to go off in all directions unprepared. I still remember the looks on their faces, when they realized that they could each actually do this stuff.

So I'm with you on a lot of this, but these kids still need to know what we learned in our 1st - 3rd grade "Think and Do" books, where we drew lines and other grouping symbols to understand adding, subtracting, and multiplying. Then long division was harder, but possible to learn. There was a lot of that in Common Core, but really too much sometimes and, yes, sometimes it didn't seem well conceived.  Common Core has some good ideas, but I think they've sometimes gone a bit overboard, without enough grounding in use of what they're supposed to learn. Settle on one or, at most, a couple ways to learn what an operation means, and then teach "the way to do it." That would save some broken students, and some parents would get along better in overcoming their own fears and helping out.

SK



Serge,

I, for one, really enjoyed reading your knowledgeable explanation on this CC stuff.
I'm a retired Land Surveyor and used trig almost every day for 40 something years...... loved it!

My grandson is in high school and trying to do algebra......and I'm trying to help him. (he's dyslexic) Boy what a frustrating job! I have to look up the lessons (he doesn't know what page he's on) and figure out what to do all over again. It's been 60 years since I learned this stuff. When I ask him what the teacher taught him, I get a blank stare and an "I don't know".  HB~> Either he's not listening or the teacher isn't cut out for teaching dyslexic children. He's in the class where they get extra help...supposedly.

Keep up the good postings Serge, I enjoy them!

Jerry

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2016, 02:47:12 PM »
Well all the math I got in grade school and a little in high school did not prepare me for this on.    101 = 5    A = 10   Counting the frame shelves in a central office started with zero(0) and went to F.    H^^

  That was not in my curriculum, either, because common use of computers was still in the future. To illuminate, '101' and 'A' are binary and hexadecimal values respectively.

 '101' (binary) = 2^2 + 0 + 2^0 =  4+0+1 = 5 decimal
'A' (hexadecimal) = '1010' binary = 2^3+0+2^1+0 = 8+0+2+0 = 10 decimal

   Brett
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 10:58:32 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Common core
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2016, 06:55:18 AM »

Mr.  Krauss,  I suggest you stop being divisive.   

Please give us one of your 2000 word narratives on why you have the right to dictate what people think.

Thank you.

I'll have to decline. I haven't done that yet and don't intend to. Think anything you wish.

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Re: Common core
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2016, 08:19:56 AM »
Well all the math I got in grade school and a little in high school did not prepare me for this on.    101 = 5    A = 10   Counting the frame shelves in a central office started with zero(0) and went to F.    H^^

Why do mathematicians always confuse Halloween and Christmas?
 Because 31 Oct = 25 Dec.
 n~

EricV

Offline John Rist

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Re: Common core
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2016, 09:42:29 AM »
Well all the math I got in grade school and a little in high school did not prepare me for this on.    101 = 5    A = 10   Counting the frame shelves in a central office started with zero(0) and went to F.    H^^

So you had 15 frame shelves - Cool. ------- or was it 16?    LL~
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Common core
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2016, 12:11:40 PM »
Count from bottom shelf,  0 - 9 and a - f.  I know hex is base 15. ???
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2016, 01:16:39 PM »
Count from bottom shelf,  0 - 9 and a - f.  I know hex is base 15. ???

  Base 16
decimal - hex- binary
 0 -0 - 0000
 1- 1 -0001
 2 -2-0010
 3-3-0011
 4-4-0100
 5-5-0101
 6-6-0110
 7-7-0111
 8-8-1000
 9-9-1001
10-a-1010
11-b-1011
12-c-1100
13-d-1101
14-e-1110
15-f-1111

  Hex and octal (as Eric mentioned above) are used because they correspond to either 4 binary bits (hex) or 2 binary bits (octal). Each binary bit corresponds to a power of 2 - the lowest bit, if set, equals 2^0 (2 to the zeroth power, or 1), second bit, 2^1 (or 2), third bit 2^2 (or 4), and 2^3 (8). If you want the decimal equivalent, for each bit that is set (each bit that is a one), add the corresponding 2^n value, and the sum is the decimal value. That property is *why* most computers use binary, all you have to check is whether the bit is set, or not set, and that is simple to implement hardware for. There are various means to represent something other than integers (basically, the same sort of thing, except that some sort of scaling factor is added), but that's left to the reader. The Mars distance example above uses IEEE Standard 754 single-precision floating point (just like the computer you are using right now), it one wants to explore further. That standard is a factor of two better than some other standards (Like MIL-STD-1750 single precision floating point), and less good than others.

    Some computers actually work directly in decimal, which makes the programming simpler in some trivial ways, but makes the hardware much more fiendishly complicated.

 

   Brett


Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Common core
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2016, 01:31:42 PM »
I've used all my fingers and toes. Still don't have a clue.


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Offline John Rist

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Re: Common core
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2016, 02:49:18 PM »
 
    Some computers actually work directly in decimal, which makes the programming simpler in some trivial ways, but makes the hardware much more fiendishly complicated.

 

   Brett



To the best of my knowledge there is no direct conversion with logic from binary to decimal numbers.  It is all done with lookup tables.  Most machines do the math in binary.  The binary answer is fed into a lookup table and the lookup table outputs the answer in decimal.

Like all silly discussion this one has hit bottom.  But hay life is good!   #^  #^  #^   LL~   LL~   LL~
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Re: Common core
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2016, 08:46:13 AM »
We have the answer

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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Common core
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2016, 10:09:18 AM »
We have the answer



Now that's funny! LL~ LL~ LL~

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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Common core
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2016, 02:12:07 PM »
'I love it. Common core may not merit that negative a review, but that's great. Thanks for the laugh! ('but do they wear cats?)

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2016, 03:54:40 PM »
To the best of my knowledge there is no direct conversion with logic from binary to decimal numbers.  It is all done with lookup tables.  Most machines do the math in binary.  The binary answer is fed into a lookup table and the lookup table outputs the answer in decimal.

It is not entirely look-up tables. How big does a binary to decimal look-up table for a 64-bit floating point number have to be? FAR More elements than the number of atoms in the universe.

    Note that I said nothing about doing calculations in decimal - just how the binary representation is easier for the computer to deal with. And there certainly are computers that work either partially or entirely in decimal, and it is still supported in some computer's instruction sets.

    Brett

     

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: Common core
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2016, 07:49:35 AM »
C'mon, Mike. Obama isn't a socialist, and this has nothing to do with him or anything here, as you well know. So please just cut out the political crap. It's divisive. On topic...

I taught secondary math and some higher math for a couple decades, but never encountered "Common Core" until working in a special after-school program about a year ago.


... <edited for brevity>



Serge,

Well thought out and cogent response and if I understand, CC is at the state and not federal level...

That said, I think Common Core is a symptom of something bigger.

STEM is based on math. Students need to know not only "Plus, minus, times and gazintas" but they need to understand the associative and distributive law. They need to know logarithms. They as you so eloquently expressed, need to do proofs, and I'll add - derivations.

Teaching math is not a "learning how to think course", it's a years-long process in which the student acquires greater and greater skills, each course building upon the next.  Sure, not everyone is going to have to tackle the Navier-Stokes equations to graduate, but the ones that do don't learn how to df it in one semester. They are prepared by years  (usually about 16) of successive mathematics courses.  At that point a student has acquired real skills that are useful for real problem solving.

And just as important, they have learned a method of applying them.

From my admittedly limited knowledge of CC, I don't see any emphasis on developing math skills for real problems. Even at an early age, you can ask a kid "Farmer Jones has 156 eggs, and his egg cartons hold 12 eggs. How many egg cartons does he need for his eggs?" or " The carpenter has 8 boards..."

This puts mathematics into a real-life perspective and teaches kids how to solve real-world problems. When you teach them that way the "light goes off". To me CC seems to be the "everybody gets a trophy" dumbing down of the core of what makes engineers, scientist, machinists,...


I think CC was really more about lobbyists who's printing clients wanted to sell a whole new generation of textbooks to make up for the losses they feel now because they've been replaced by digital.

So IMHO, CC is about greed, plain and simple. It's about money first and our kid's futures second. Add in the religious nutjobs infiltrating politics and waging a war on science and education in this country, and the overall decline in the rational thinking skills (now well demonstrated by current events) of the proletariat and we end up where we are.

I'm in the latter parts of my career, and I get dismayed by what I see lately when we interview. We are literally trying to fill high-tech jobs with applicants who hold two-year degrees and yet can't solve 4th grade math problems.  I've seen plants have to switch to digital mics because they can't find people operating machines that can read the barrel on a micrometer. Now, they forget to zero and quality escapes occur. Didn't happen when we had high school grads who could go "Three times 25 plus 18 = 93 thousandths."

Math was taught the way it was (for hundreds of years!) for a reason: It prepared students to enter the workforce with skills. It was giving them a toolkit.

Wow, I must be really getting to be a geezer. I better go check for kids playing on my lawn and playing rock & roll music too loud.

We now return you to the subject of controline model airplanes.

Chuck


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Offline Robert Dible

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Re: Common core
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2016, 09:00:07 AM »
I doubt too many ever worked with Boolean logic.
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Online Mike Griffin

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Re: Common core
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2016, 09:11:46 AM »


This is what they are teaching...thank God I don't have any kids today , they would be homeschooled.

Mike


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