Width of Ink Lines, ... what tape to use?

[Rudy Taube]

1. What is the width of the panel Ink lines used on a 60" WS, 680 sq. in. size plane? I want to use them on my semi scale P47. (1/32" or is 1/16 OK?)

2. Is there an Ink that is permanent on a film covering (Ultrakote and Monokote) It is electric so it does not have to be fuel proof. I have used a simple Sharpie pen on my E P40 and it worked great for a long time, but it slowly wears off in spots with occasional cleaning.

3. I have read that some use some type of black drafting tape, where can I get this product. Does the auto trim pin stripe tape come this thin in black? (Mark S. help?)

4. Do you guys take the ink lines over the markings (stars and bars, etc.) of leave the markings without the black panel lines?

TIA for your help. 

[Eric Viglione]

Well, I found this for Monokote made by TopFlite for ya... not sure how well it works, but looks worth a try. Maybe someone here will post experience with using this one.

http://www.monokote.com/accys/topq2510.html

"Panel Line Pen
 Add realistic panel lines and rivet detail to your MonoKote-covered wings and fuselages-as easily as you sign your name! The pen's durable tip and opaque black ink create fine, permanent lines that stand up to CAs and mild cleaners. It looks better than tape-and won't peel off..Adds realistic panel lines.

Stock Number: TOPQ2510 "

EricV

[posthole_digger]

Why not buy one of these machines to cut narrow tape from Monocote - then you can iron on the panel lines?

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHZ33&P=SM

Paul

[Paul Smith]

Sharpie makes an "industrial strength", "super-permanent" series of black pens.  I buy a dozen of them over the I-net every few years.  I've never seen them in stores.

I don't recall the source, but I found it on the usual search engine.

[Richard Grogan]

Sharpie makes an "industrial strength", "super-permanent" series of black pens.  I buy a dozen of them over the I-net every few years.  I've never seen them in stores.

I don't recall the source, but I found it on the usual search engine.

Is this what you're talking about Paul?

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=110883&itemid=678090

14.18 for a dozen.Shipping included! Or you can pick them up at Sams.

[Bob Reeves]

Is this what you're talking about Paul?

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=110883&itemid=678090

14.18 for a dozen.Shipping included! Or you can pick them up at Sams.

Richard, am pretty sure that is just a larger version of the standard fine point sharpie, would make too large a line and not be any more permanent than a standard Sharpie.

[Paul Smith]

http://www.sharpie.com/enUS/Product/Sharpie_Industrial_Permanent_Marker.html

This what I'm refering to.  Maybe Sam's has them now, but they didn't a couple years ago.  These are a level above the usual "permanent" markers.

[Mark Scarborough]

Rudy,
Yes you can get automotive pinstriping tape 1/16 of an inch in black. You may have to purchase a two line stripe tape ( has a thicker line as well) or have the finish store order what you want. Its out there, do NOT go cheap, there are several different grades of striping tape, the cheap stuff, usually found at shucks and other "consumer" parts stores is very inferior to the quality stuff.
I might suggest that you  may be happier with a charcoal grey, instead of black though. Personally I think black can be a bit overwhelming for panel lines.

You could concievably cut strips of monokote, but getting them on straight, and making them exactly the same width could be quite a challange IMO.

[bob branch]

3M auto stipping tape is available in any color you want and multiple widths including very thin. Not sure the minimum. Search for it online. A number of online auto stores carry it. It applies very easily... has low tack at first. After a day .... well, how often do you see the pin stripes coming off cars these days? It is not expensive, about $10 for 40 feet. It does wonderful corners even when wider widths without bunching up or thinning out. See the T-Rex build thread and Strega Pics. All the stripping on both planes is this stuff. Also comes in mulitiple strips.... ,metallics, lots of interesting options.

I would make note though that one of the most difficult things to do when using a striping tape is a straight line. You must be careful to set one end and then bring it to the other end of the lie and lower it vertically to the other end point. Even then it can be tough. Doing multiple parallel lines is even tougher. That is actually easier when the lines are pretty close together. Your eye sees it better because the gaps between the lines are smaller. To do it on panel lines with the gaps an inch or two apart would be tough. Probably easier without trifocal lenses. btw, trifocals without lines are no better than with lines and maybe worse for this kind of work. The lines are in there you just cannot see them and there are lots of them. But it is doable with patience.

I would try the top flite panel line pen on scrap first. Let it set a few days and then see if its permanent. It did not seem to be in the short run... but I did not give it longer once I saw it smear.

bob branch

[Mark Scarborough]

Bob,
good points all

( well I cant speak of the trifocal experiences ,, yet,,, sig

One trick for making straight lines is to lay down a guide, I sometimes use a peice of CHEAP 3/4" masking tape. Cheap masking tape because it is not as flexible as good maskign tape is and it wont stretch into a curve. Then lay your striping tape against it. Crepe, masking tape, like used for painting cars, is very flexible and has some of the same issues with being hard to pull straight. a couple tips, make sure you hold the roll straight in line with where you want the line to be, turning the roll even slightly will cause the tape to stretch on one side. I lay thin tape along wider tape by "pulling " the thin tape into the edge of the wide tape.

[Rudy Taube]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Below is a link I found for the 1/16" 3M Auto trim tape:

        http://www.repaintsupply.com/cat_701.cfm

This may be moot because 1/16" looks like it will be way too WIDE to be scale.

I did not see any comments re: the width of our CL panel lines, so I was forced to set my "grading papers" task aside and get off my lazy butt and measure the ink lines on my P-40. 

1. I had used a standard "Sharipie Ultra Fine Point" Pen a few years ago. This has lasted better, and much longer than I had expected. But I have had to baby it with gentel cleanings. A few areas have worn off but it only took a little effort to re-ink them, although this is not a good solution if you want it to look like new (hard to start and stop on the exact same line without a dot or worse.)
      Below is a link to a photo of my P40 with panel lines. BTW: this was the 1st plane I had ever done panel lines on. I was pleasantly surprised to find out how easy it was to do. Tedious, but easy. A good thin metal Fiskars 15" ruler with cork backing and a similar 36" thin metal edge to curve around the airfoil, etc. I did keep wiping the metal clean, but I am ART challenged so it is not perfect.
      I got an accurate 3 View of a P-40 that showed the actual panels in the plane. I used these to make scale panel lines. To keep the lines parallel I measured everything, made little dots, then just connected all the dots. 

      http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=5823.0

2. The closest I could come to measuring the width of the panel lines, using a micrometer, large magnifying glass and extra light, was 3/128" (about 75% of 1/32"). This makes 1/16 a little chubby.

3.  Let's guess that the gaps between panels (what we are trying to show) on a full scale WWII warbird are 1/8" (I don't think they are any more than that?). My  60", 680 sq. in. size P-47 is exactly 1/8 scale (12%). That would make our "scale" panel lines 2/128". This is a thin ink line, but close to our pens. If we are trying to imitate a row of 1/4" rivits (without making tens of thousand of dots!) then our lines would still only be 4/128". This makes our "Ultra Fine Point" Sharpie lines right inbetween these two, which is a "good thing". :-) ...... but 1/16" (8/128") would still be too wide.

I totally agree with Mark that most CL panel lines stand out way too much. I like his idea of using a charcoal gray color. My base color is military gray and I think a charcoal gray for the panel lines would be perfect. But I can't find this color anywhere. IMHO: I think that those that do panel lines on white planes should definitely use Mark's advice and use a thin grey line if they want to be more realistic.

Paul is right about the "Industrial Grade" Sharpie's. They do say they are more permanent, but they still warn that they will not stand up to abrasion or strong cleaners. I ordered several in both widths. I will keep you posted on the results.

Thanks for the reminder Bob. I have a Monokote pen I never used, I forgot all about it! I will take your advice and try it, but let it set (dry?) for a few weeks, then see how it stands up to a mild wipe down. It will be interesting to see if it stands up to Monokote polish. This is good stuff that cleans off stray electrons and adds a little shine, even to Ultracote! 



BTW: I'm still looking for help with my question: "..... do you guys make the panel lines go OVER the markings, like the Stars and Bars etc., or does the panel line stop then start on the other side of the marking? On full size planes the panel lines do not show up as much on the color markings as they do on the grey, or aluminium metal. TIA   

Thanks again for all the good info. and tips. 

Regards, 

[bob branch]

Rudy

If you are interested in rivet lines the RC jet world has rivets in dry transfer form and panels as well. Try http://www.aeroloft.com/precision%20scale%20dry%20transfers.htm

bob branch

[john e. holliday]

You might go to the gallery section and look at some of the planes.  Also great pictures in  "Stunt News" &  "Control Line World".  Myself after the first try with drafting pen I don't even think of panel lines and such.

[Crist Rigotti]

Rudy,
I use Monokote cut into 1/32 or less strips.  I do this on a nice piece of basswood with straight grain.  i cut along the width and get 26 inch pieces.  I do a whole bunch at a time.  Then I gently iron them down in place with 1/2 heat.  On electric you won't have to worry about them lifting.  On gas if they do, just clean off the airplane and redo.

[bob branch]

Crist

If after you are done you seal them with monocote solvent along an edge you will not ever have them come off.

bob branch

[Mike Scholtes]

Rudy, for at least one modeler's answer to your "over the stars and bars or not" question see the back cover of the March/April 2009 Stunt News. This is a full-page color spread of Billy Werwage's P-47. His panel lines are over all the other colors and details. I think this would be true even on full scale aircraft, where the painted emblems would still show the panel lines over which they had been painted. Incidentally there is virtually no gap between panels on high performance aircraft, and in lower speed stuff the panels generally overlap, rather than being butt-jointed.

[Crist Rigotti]

Crist

If after you are done you seal them with monocote solvent along an edge you will not ever have them come off.

bob branch

Bob,
If is use Monokote solvent, then I get a lot of smears and it takes a while to clean them up.

[bob branch]

Crist

Interesting. I have not had that issue. Maybe too much? Or possibly the thin stripe lets too much seep in. Anyway, that could be a discouraging issue to deal with.

bob

[Crist Rigotti]

Try it on a test piece.

[bob branch]

Crist

You are a better man than I am. No way I could iron down something straight like that . I'll stick with my 3M tape for the thin stuff. I don't do panel lines so they are not much of an issue to me. Your plane sure looked nice though. Obviously you have a touch with it. I will try it on a test piece though. See if there is a way around it.

bob

[Rudy Taube]

Thanks again guys for all the ideas and info. Thanks to you guys, this has turned out to be an interesting thread.

Here is one more idea. I liked it enough to place an order for the 1/64" lines and the 1/32" lines. I will see if their paint works on film covering. If it does, this may be the perfect solution for panel lines. The stencil tape looks like it is wide enough to keep a stable long straight line. The stencil idea looks a lot easier to do than using an ink pen and yard stick. The paint comes in many colors. Here's their link:

          http://www.finessepinstriping.com/striper_order.asp

I do like the idea of trying to cut 3/128" wide pieces of Ultracote. I'll give that a try this week. Crist, you must have the steady hands of a surgeon, those were really straight panel lines. 

Thanks Mike, Over the top they go ..... If it is good enough for the amazing Billy, it is sure good enough for me!    After seeing his plane again it makes me wonder what I am doing wasting my time even trying to make a nice looking plane. I am "builder" challenged, and I think I am in over my head! 

Speaking of Billy. I am blown away by his amazing feat of winning two World championships in a row in 1970/72, then 34 years after the 1st win he wins another world championships in 2004. I can't think of another person that has done that in any type of World sport competition. I guess the 498,678 gallons of model fuel he has burned over the years paid off?    BTW: there is another photo of Billy's beautiful P-47 Razorback on the cover of the current PAMPA SN. (now available on line :-)

Your right about today's jets, they don't have many gaps anywhere. I have been lucky enough to have flown a few round motor WWII era planes. Since they were old by the time I flew them, there were small gaps in the panels, enough to shadow the light on them, giving them a line that can be seen, along with the line of thousands of closely spaced rivits. Most of the many access panels and cowls had easily seen gaps. I think these are the things that the CL builders are trying to duplicate with all these lines.

Speaking of access panels, thank you Bob for the jet link. They have a perfect set of panels for our needs. It only costs around $24, looks like a great deal. I will call them Mon. to see if they have it in our small 12% size.

It looks like there are several good ways to get this job done. Thanks again for all the great help. After seeing all the beautiful planes (Paul's, Dave's, Jim's, Phil's, Larry's, and several other world class planes) at the recent Golden State Champs, I was inspired to build at least one nice CL plane. With all the help from Robert's wonderful forum, who knows, even a "building challenged" guy like me might be able to get "10" AP at the next contest?  ..... We will soon see how it turns out. 

Regards, 

[Bruce Shipp]

Allen Goff taught me this and I have found it to be very easy to do.  Get the SF Monokote trim strip cutter.  It is a spool with a number 11 blade and can cut very long lengths of pin stripping down to 1/16" or less.  They were relatively easy to iron on and were surprisingly durable.  Mine were on a piped ship so there was not a great deal of exhaust oil on any of them.  Easy to put on straight.  Easy to remove it you messed up.  Easy to repair if one cam loose.  I used gray monokote and it really made a difference in the model's appearance.  Search older posts for some of Allen's models over the last 10 years and you will see some great effects.

[Will Hinton]

Bruce,
 That's a big AMEN on Allen's skills with the Monokoting and striping.  He also taught me how to Monokote properly but I still can't match his planes.  (He's painting everything now and still putting out super sweet finishes.)
Will