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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bryan Higgins on September 19, 2009, 11:45:32 AM

Title: Color Toners
Post by: Bryan Higgins on September 19, 2009, 11:45:32 AM

Hello Pilots

Where can i purchase color toner sets?  Ive been all over the internet and the only ones i
see are the ones for the big paint shops that cost thirty or fourty thousand dollars.

Or do i just take my Randolph Dope Qt to the paint store and ask them to put toner in it?

Please help .... I would really like to mix my own dope with my own toners.

Bryan n~

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Bryan Higgins on September 19, 2009, 12:21:11 PM

Ok, I found them at Napa and Oreilly's auto stores.

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Randy Powell on September 20, 2009, 12:48:34 AM

Bryan,

Well, I go the auto paint place. I have them mix up a color by color number and leave out the urethane binder. Then I come home and mix in dope as a binder. Works pretty well with a couple of caveats. You have to be careful that the color you choose doesn't have an ingredient that uses a urethane carrier (like liquid pearls or metallics). My guy at the paint shop usually just substitutes dry ingredients (though he gripes about it and always warns me that the color won't exactly match the color number - not a big deal for me).

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Bryan Higgins on September 21, 2009, 04:00:04 PM

Thank You  Randy very much

That makes things easyer.  I guess alot of people don't realize if you had like
six bottles of toner you can mix any color under the rainbow.

"Most paint stores don't want you to know this".

Just take your mixture and add it to some Randolph Buytrate Clear Dope and
presto you have just made your own custom dope paint.

They even till what mixtures to use on the internet for what color.  Like Red
or Blue and so on.        Bryan

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Randy Powell on September 21, 2009, 04:08:26 PM

Bryan,

Pretty much. You just have to be careful of the additives. That bit me once when I had them mix up some Ford French Blue (one of those color that you can't tell if it's purple or blue). Has a pearl toner in it and the guy used a liquid pearl with what I found out was a urethane carrier. Made the paint look like cottage cheese when I mixed in the Randolph's clear.

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: billbyles on September 21, 2009, 05:29:32 PM

Quote from: Bryan Higgins on September 21, 2009, 04:00:04 PM

Thank You  Randy very much

That makes things easyer.  I guess alot of people don't realize if you had like
six bottles of toner you can mix any color under the rainbow.

Weeellllll, not exactly.  My Sikkens paint mixing/matching system has over thirty different toners.  Most are for solid (non-metallic) colors, but many are semi-transparent toners for mixing metallic colors.  And, I have four different toners for metallic flakes with different size flakes.  Then there are a couple of metallic flake toners that have a "leafing" type metallic flake, and some that have a "non-leafing" metallic flake.  I know that we don't use metallics a whole lot on our models, but I do have to mix them for the few classic cars that I paint in addition to the full-scale airplanes.  Just FYI. 

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: RandySmith on September 21, 2009, 05:43:47 PM

Hi
With 5 colors, you can make any color in the rainbow ,except for metallics, metalflakes, and things like pearl or changling colors, these and a few others are why we have all the extra colors

Regards
Randy

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Tom Rounds on September 21, 2009, 06:34:30 PM

I think that there are only 3 primary colors. These are red yellow and blue. These 3 colors cannot be made by mixing any other colors. You can make any color from these 3. Black and white are used to either tint or shade any color.  Go to an art store and pick up a " Color Wheel" They are about $4.00

Here is a tip from the dark side (R/C) Dave Platt has video/DVD on his scale R/C planes. One of them covers using the color wheel and mixing paint. It got a lot of great information on it.

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Randy Powell on September 21, 2009, 09:30:36 PM

Well, in theory, you can make any color from red, yellow, blue, black and white. In theory.

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: billbyles on September 21, 2009, 10:02:58 PM

Quote from: Tom Rounds on September 21, 2009, 06:34:30 PM

I think that there are only 3 primary colors. These are red yellow and blue. These 3 colors cannot be made by mixing any other colors. You can make any color from these 3. Black and white are used to either tint or shade any color.  Go to an art store and pick up a " Color Wheel" They are about $4.00

Here is a tip from the dark side (R/C) Dave Platt has video/DVD on his scale R/C planes. One of them covers using the color wheel and mixing paint. It got a lot of great information on it.

Yeah - in theory you can make any color from the three primary colors.  Black is used to dirty up the color, white is used to fade it.  However, in practice you will not find any professional paint mixing system for painting airplanes or cars that uses only the three primary colors plus black and white.  The pigment for each individual mixing toner is made from one specific mineral and is not a blend of other pigments.     

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: RandySmith on September 21, 2009, 10:44:58 PM

Their are  5 colors that are primary colors you have to have to make any color, (with the exception of the metal flakes and the ones I mentioned).
This is NOT theory. IT IS FACT.
 IT is Done  every day at prints shops. It is called 4 color process. with Black, Blue, Red, yellow  and  white paper you can print any color. You can also do the same thing with computer laser or Inkjet printers.
This is a fact. Most every color magazine you see and color pictures use  only 4 colors plus white.
Anyone that really doubts this needs to look it up. I did this for over 20 years

Regards
Randy

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: RandySmith on September 21, 2009, 10:53:36 PM

Quote from: Tom Rounds on September 21, 2009, 06:34:30 PM

I think that there are only 3 primary colors. These are red yellow and blue. These 3 colors cannot be made by mixing any other colors. You can make any color from these 3. Black and white are used to either tint or shade any color.  Go to an art store and pick up a " Color Wheel" They are about $4.00

Here is a tip from the dark side (R/C) Dave Platt has video/DVD on his scale R/C planes. One of them covers using the color wheel and mixing paint. It got a lot of great information on it.

Tom

You can't make white from mixing any of those colors you listed above, and you can't make a real black from them ,so, you need  5 colors  to make all of them  Black ,blue, red ,yellow,white.  In printing color magazines the white is the paper, and although you can fake black, it really isn't black unless you add the black ink
You can buy a Pantone color mixing book from a print supply house that will help you tremendously in making whatever color you want from these colors

Regards
Randy

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: jim gilmore on September 22, 2009, 12:39:50 AM

uhm,,, Randy.. you do know that black and white are not colors ....

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: RandySmith on September 22, 2009, 09:12:14 AM

Quote from: jim gilmore on September 22, 2009, 12:39:50 AM

uhm,,, Randy.. you do know that black and white are not colors ....

uhmm...sure  ...I had heard the tales that black is not a color it is only the absence of all light,,,and  white is  just the presence.....

so next time you want a white airplane..try to get it without the color white   LL~ LL~
or see what "color" dope you have to load into the airbrush  to spray black trim  ;D

Randy

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: RandySmith on September 22, 2009, 09:25:51 AM

Quote from: billbyles on September 21, 2009, 10:02:58 PM

Yeah - in theory you can make any color from the three primary colors.  Black is used to dirty up the color, white is used to fade it.  However, in practice you will not find any professional paint mixing system for painting airplanes or cars that uses only the three primary colors plus black and white.  The pigment for each individual mixing toner is made from one specific mineral and is not a blend of other pigments.     

Hi Bill

I realize that car painting systems are differant and I was speaking of making most any color with the exception of special ones, not making car paints that are sometimes, pearl, metallic,translucent,opaque,changeling,and a huge array of candy,over or undercoated stuff.
 However even with car paint you can, and I have made most any color with blending 5 colors. However if you want to perfectly match any color that car makers use, you do have to have a system that is developed to do just that.
My post were not directed at your Car painting systems. I was speaking  about making colors in general

Regards
Randy

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Randy Powell on September 22, 2009, 11:00:46 AM

Randy,

That's why I said "In Theory". With printing as in your example, you can make virtually any color with CMYK combinations. It's basically blue (cyan), red (magenta), yellow (yellow) and black (keyline).

Of course, in paint mixing, that really doesn't hold up. It takes a lot of other pigments to make colors.

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Mark Scarborough on September 22, 2009, 12:00:47 PM

A moment to discuss color theory,
IF YOU PLEASE
there is a HUGE difference between print and paint, I have done both
in print, you have colors, Cyan, Magenta, Process blue ect,, they are "pure  " colors

In paint you have several yellows, one that is a blue cast, one that is red cast and one that is clean
you have blues that are red cast, green cast
you have reds that are blue cast, and yellow cast.
while in an ideal world, assuming you could get a TRUE yellow, a TRUE blue and a TRUE red, you could mix most colors that way. Therein lies the problem, there are no pure toners for auto paint available. The reason for this lies in the fact that the paint is not truly opaque. as a result, the light reflects off the pigments differently. Each pigment particle is ground to a different size for various reasons before its suspended into the carrier. In doing that, the light will bounce around inside the layer of paint and a different color will result.
One important thing to realize when dealing with color, you are not seeing the color, you are seeing the color that represents the frequency of lightwave that is actually being reflected by the paint. the colors of light that are absorbed are everything else in the visible spectrum.
white is in fact the presence of ALL frequencies of visible light in the proper balance, black is the absence of any reflected light. ( thats in pure color theory.)
so, in paint, you cannot mix every color with three toners because of the cast in the pigment, you could come close but not quite do it.

Randy Powells's method is about the cleanest approach I have seen for using auto toners in dope. Personally I just mix what I need, but then not everyone has access to a mixing bench with all the toners on it. Be advised that not all two stage urethane systems are viable for this method, some like Nexus and a couple of the current PPG systems have the clear Urethane binder as part of the bench mix colors so you are not able to leave the binder out ( to be replaced later with Dope)
I would follow Randy Ps brand reccomendation personally if I were to go this route.

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Shultzie on September 22, 2009, 01:31:24 PM

WOW! MARK!!!!
After reading this last post of yours about color....it reminded me of my late Boeing Company friend, Dr. James C. Crowder, ( We called him "KAPTAIN KING KROWER...MASTER OF PAINT TRICKS n TREATS" who made virtually a life-long study of not only color but how pigments effect color changes..not only visually, due to the color temp. of the light source....but also the chemical compounds of pigments...even how their spectrum of percieved color can change with such varibles like temps. from heat to cold.
His studies earned him The Sloan Fellowship award for excellence in many other various studies of light waves and SO MANY OTHER THINGS THAT MERE MORTALS..ESPECIAL NERD DE WELLS LIKE ME can never hope to understand (at least in this lifetime?)
Anyhoo..
A great conversational piece started by my fellow CLPA paint geeks H^^ LL~ S?P
 :! :! :!

Humm..in truth: Humbleeeeeas it may be????

A MASTER PAINTER IS TRULY ONLY AS GOOD AS THEIR LAST PAINT GIG JOB!"

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: RandySmith on September 22, 2009, 02:43:53 PM

Quote from: Randy Powell on September 22, 2009, 11:00:46 AM

Randy,

That's why I said "In Theory". With printing as in your example, you can make virtually any color with CMYK combinations. It's basically blue (cyan), red (magenta), yellow (yellow) and black (keyline).

Of course, in paint mixing, that really doesn't hold up. It takes a lot of other pigments to make colors.

HI Randy

I realize that ,and I said there are exceptions, however you will be amazed at how many colors you can make with 5 colors of paint, I have done it for 40 years now. You can make an astounding number of colors with the 5 colors I listed.
My Dreadhought has 33 colors of paint sprayed on it, and they were all mixed by me with 5 colors.

I can tell you where to get a color mixing chart on how to make these colors, in paint, with only 5 colors, this of course does not mean metallics and special colors like pearls and the like.

This is also a statement on making color paints in general for painting model airplanes.
It doesn't dispute anything about urethanes, binders, mixing stations or custom candy or other type paints.
It also is not disputing your (Randy P) recomemdation for having a paint shop blend from a computer matching system.
Or Bill B. statements about how many colors are in his mixing station.
 Both of those post were good advise an wil help if they go in that direction.

Mine is a statement about making most any color from these 5 colors I mentioned, I know I have done it for many many years now.
So it doesn't take me many many colors to make all of these colors, I can make most all of them with 5 colors.


Regards
Randy

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Randy Powell on September 22, 2009, 03:38:44 PM

Randy,

>>You can make an astounding number of colors with the 5 colors I listed.<<

Not me. I know it's true. There is a certain amount of shooting in the dark with this method, but you can come up with an wide range of color from just the 5. I like having the paint guy do it because I can just give him a color number and get very, very close to what I was looking for.

But for all that, I've been painting a plane before and thought, what I really want is this color and looked at what I had, mixed some stuff together and come up with, uh, interesting colors.

The other thing is, with your original 5 colors, you can mix up whatever color you wanted then splash in some dry pearl or metallic or whatever and there you are; custom pearl (or whatever) paint.

Title: Re: Color Toners
Post by: Bill Little on September 24, 2009, 11:57:12 PM

I am not about to jump in and argue any of this, but it is spot on to a discussion I have been having with a friend (and noted NASCAR author) about some autos that were *custom* painted around 1963-1964.  In particular Candy w/Pearl clear coated cars.  The simple fact of changing the base color in any way, or changing the amount of coats applied, etc., etc., along with lighting on the subject can affect the differences from one car to the next painted with the same *color*.  This is all in relation to an experiment FoMoCo did in 1963-64 with their factory NASCAR teams which were supplied by Holman/Moody.  They tried candies AND pearls on the race cars.  One car which was painted Wimbledon White had so much pearl powder loaded in the clear that it actually looked silver in bright sun! LOL!!  Plus, the colors faded almost by the hour when exposed to the bright sun.  A different guy in the shop doing the painting made a difference on the exact shade of color the cars actually came out. 

Another interesting case occurred when Terry Nichels ran out of gray primer late one night and had to paint a K&K Charger Daytona before morning.  He used Red Oxide and then shot the Poppy Red (a FoMoCo Mustang color that is actually ORANGE).  When he pushed the car out to load it the next day there was another Charger 500 of the teams out in the lot and the cars looked like a different colors, but the top color coat came out of the same 5 gal. barrel that they painted all the cars from.  The primer changed the color.

I guess I am really lucky since all my airplanes are red unless they are a semi scale project! (I just have to remember which can of red I used when doing a repair.......... ) LL~ LL~

Just wait until you see my Pearl Candy Tangerine Randy Smith *Classic* next year!  HOK Shimmrins Candy Tangerine sprayed over a gold base with a Pearl powder mixed in the clear top coat.  Just have to figure out the trim colors..........  Probably white, a metallic gray, and a charcoal gray in my typical scallops. :o  :o
{like Rocky said to Apollo, "ain't gonna be no rematch (repairs!)"}

Mongo