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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Phillip Kenney on January 19, 2016, 06:09:24 PM
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I am in the process of building a Sig Akromaster and the stab elevator are shown connected using cloth hinges. Awhile back I tried using them on another plane and quite honestly they were terrible. I know it was my installation technique so my question is: What is the best adhesive to use for the hinges? Used Ambroid last time and they never really stuck.
The stab and elevator are to thin to use any other type f material.
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Ambroid of today seems much more thin than in the past. It might be tough to get hinges to stick. We use Sigment or 527 cement from craft stores. It's thicker and sticks well, worked in with the fingers. Doesn't taste too bad when you chew it off.
Dave
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Son-in-law Kevin's Barnstormer stab:
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I see Dave's response went up as i was typing! Lol
I've had great luck with sigment, titebond wood glue, testors hot fuel proof wood glue and CA. The thick wasn't so bad. Instead of rubbing it in with my fingers, i used wax paper... I know. I'm a wimp like that
I'm building an electric akromaster right now! I'm using Monokote hinges. I'll get pics up tonight when i finish. Here's half way
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If Dave uses Sigment or 527 and gets hinges like that, it's off to the craft store for the 527!
Fine looking hinges
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What is "527" glue? A type of white glue? What brand is it? It's snowing and too crappy out to drive to Michael's!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Duco cement works well. Be sure to install hinges side-by-side in order to ensure a sealed hingeline.
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I use clear dope and Tom Morris hinge material. Here is my vector I am working on now.
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What is "527" glue? A type of white glue? What brand is it? It's snowing and too crappy out to drive to Michael's!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Dan 527 seems to be a carbon copy of Sigment. Maybe they are made by the same company. Walmart carries it off and on. Michaels and Hobby Lobby usually have it. I used it a lot during the Sigment shortage a while back and couldn't tell the difference. May even be cheaper. This is the small 2 ounce tube. Sometimes they will have a 3 1/2- 4 ounce.
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I use clear dope and Tom Morris hinge material. Here is my vector I am working on now.
Rick, do you apply the hinges over or under the silkspan for the flaps. I have only done elevators on non-flapped models thus far with this technique but I will be doing a silk and dope flapped model soon. I like the Morris/Dope hinge very much. Thx, Mike
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Phillip I use Dacron cloth hinges almost exclusively. I buy the material from Aircraft Spruce. A square yard of it will last you years. I use nitrate or butyrate dope to apply them. If you use dope you need to apply at least 3 coats to the balsa and then place the precut hinge where you want it and brush dope over it. I usually brush dope on the balsa, lay down the hinge and brush dope over it and use the tip of my finger to rub the dope through the cloth. If you have a wrinkle in the hinge after it dries, wave your heat gun over the hinge and it will pull tight.
I have tried glues but never found one that works as good as dope. The next best thing to dope that I have used has been Elmers white glue thinned with a little water but still dope is my first choice.
Mike
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Rick, do you apply the hinges over or under the silkspan for the flaps. I have only done elevators on non-flapped models thus far with this technique but I will be doing a silk and dope flapped model soon. I like the Morris/Dope hinge very much. Thx, Mike
Hi Mike
I know you addressed your question to Rick but if this helps, I have done it both ways but usually dope the Silkspan or Polyspan over the hinges. You can cover first and dope the hinges over the covering as well. Either will work.
Mike
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Mike
That is the way I do it. I put the silkspan / polyspan over the hinges. I do 3-4 nice coats of clear dope then use thinner on the hinges to suck them down flat. I leave them long then after a coat of clear cut them all to the same length with a straight edge and a sharp exacto. Another couple coats of dope then cover.
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Mike:
what weight Dacron do you use?
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Like Mike K I recently used Duco cement on cloth hinges. The hinge material I used is 1955-vintage cloth of some sort. Worked very well, easy to smooth out. Duco still seems readily available in craft stores as well as model shops (at least the ones that acknowledge that people can actually build stuff). I do cloth hinges in clusters of three, with two on one surface (elevator) and one on other (stab) so they interlock and form a fairly tight hinge gap.
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Mike:
what weight Dacron do you use?
The is what I use
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/peelply3.php?clickkey=4728
Mike
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I hate all these kits that have super thin wood for the tail, they just warp. Phil, do yourself a favor and make a new stab/elevator out of 3/16" balsa. Gives you the pinned hinge option.
Last time I did cloth hinges I used regular Titebond thinned with a tiny bit of water. I smear a thin layer where the hinge goes and it will soak in and dry quickly, then you can apply more glue and stick the hinges on. Good idea to double glue with any of the glues mentioned.
MM
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You can laminate up a "spar" for the stabilizer, elevator, flaps and wing TE that has the slots built in. Use pinned hinges and a single pin for as many hinges as is possible (one for each flap, one for each elevator, etc.). The gap will be bigger, but all the top stunt grunts do it this way. Apply Scotch tape to seal the hingelines. You can paint all the bits separately, remove and replace if warped, remove and refinish if you decide to later, and can even use the same bits on a new plane in the future. y1 Steve
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While the lifetime supply of Dacron from Aircraft Spruce for $4.35 is interesting, the $11.60 in shipping is not. Will probably check with Sparky on his hinges material. Total outlay will be less. At 69 years old how many hinges will I be making in the future?
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Really, if you want it to look good, dope the hinge areas with enough dope that you can tell it is doped. Then really thinned dope to put the hinges down. But, then you miss out on chewing the glue off your fingers.
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While the lifetime supply of Dacron from Aircraft Spruce for $4.35 is interesting, the $11.60 in shipping is not. Will probably check with Sparky on his hinges material. Total outlay will be less. At 69 years old how many hinges will I be making in the future?
Phillip you can buy them from Tom Morris already cut if you wish...
Mike
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I use Tom Morris hinges full length and dope them on with high shrink dope before covering. That seals the hinge line for the most part, and they almost disappear after covering. I have never had them fail.
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I use Tom Morris hinges full length and dope them on with high shrink dope before covering. That seals the hinge line for the most part, and they almost disappear after covering. I have never had them fail.
Me either Jim...its a great way to seal the hinge line and they are very flexible..
Mike
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Yeah Mike; That is the other thing. Your controls will be butter smooth. There will be a slight tendency to return to neutral for the first couple of flights sometimes, but it will go away in a flight or two. I have never found anything better.
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I use Dacron similar to Tom Morris' hinges; I buy Dacron polyester from Jo-Anne Fabrics and make sealed hinge lines.
I stick them down with nitrate dope under the covering. The first thing I do is seal the wood with a couple of coats of dope.
Next I put masking tape down where I want the ends of the hinges and put them over it on the non-moving surface.
The hinges are installed on both sides by tacking them down with nitrate thinner. You can overcoat with nitrate after they
are positioned to your satisfaction.
Similar prep for the moving surface. I then "weave the surface into the hinges and hold level with a couple of paint paddles
clamped to the moving surface an stab or wing. Then I work the joint tight and tack it down with thinner.
After the dope is dry, cut th hinges off on the tape line and they will look and work great.
The hinge material in most kits (unbleached muslin) is too heavy for good hinges.
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I still use Ambroid.
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Reading through the various replies, I see some say to use Nitrate dope, some say Butyrate dope and some just say dope. What would be the advantage and disadvantage of using either of the two types of dope?
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Nitrate dope is a little stickier than butyrate, but both work fine. I have quit using nitrate all together.
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Hi Mike, I use Goldberg Nylon tape attached with Ambroid glue. I cut lengths of hinge material ell in advance of need and pinch it in a spring close pin which enables consistent hinge bends. You may completely seal the entire surface or just do them insets of three or so across the piece. By all means use the 3/16 balsa sheets for your tail / elevators stock; doesn't warp and can be shaped quite nicely. I have planes made in the '70's in this manner which are still sound.
If you do make Mono-Coat type hinges first add pieces of material of appropriate color to the mating edges back about 1" top and bottom. These wraps provide an excellent base for the hinges added later to adhere to. Then install the Mono-Coat hinges the whole way across the piece alternating top and bottom as you go. I do one complete edge first then bring the mating surface to it. Once all hinges are install to both surfaces, complete the covering of the entire piece with you main color. The planes I have done in this manner have not had any hinge failures since created.
Phil Spillman