C/L Profile Plane for ENYA SS40 BB

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hi,

I wanna build a new profile plane for stunt which I’m going to put an ENYA SS40 BB to its nose.

Which of the following is the most suitable kit without doing much mods:
- SIG Banshee
- SIG Twister
- RSM Naughty Girl
- RSM Mark 1
- Brodak P40B

Looking forward to hearing more from you!


Best regards,
Kafin

[Jim Hoffman]

Consider a profile Pathfinder.   Brodak makes a kit.  Very good aerodynamics.

[gene poremba]

 Of the kits you have listed, my pick would be the Sig Twister. I have four of them with different engine combinations and they all fly Great! They are easy to build with the constant chord wing and are capable of all the stunts. They are easy to repair too ....Gene

[Tim Wescott]

Of the kits you have listed, my pick would be the Sig Twister. I have four of them with different engine combinations and they all fly Great! They are easy to build with the constant chord wing and are capable of all the stunts. They are easy to repair too ....Gene

I was going to suggest either the Twister or the Banshee with the wing moved forward -- but I'm not familiar with just how much power that engine puts out.  The 40 FP, Tower 40 family of engines seems well suited to that airframe, but they're journal-bearing sport engines.  Is that how that Enya runs, or is more like one of OS's AX engines?

[Kafin Noe’man]

I was going to suggest either the Twister or the Banshee with the wing moved forward -- but I'm not familiar with just how much power that engine puts out.  The 40 FP, Tower 40 family of engines seems well suited to that airframe, but they're journal-bearing sport engines.  Is that how that Enya runs, or is more like one of OS's AX engines?

I don’t really understand what journal-bearing engine is, so I’m attaching you the spec sheet.


Mine is the BB one, I converted it to C/L.

[Brett Buck]

I don’t really understand what journal-bearing engine is, so I’m attaching you the spec sheet.

   He means plain-bearing engine (as opposed to ball-bearing). It's not terribly relevant to this problem.

    Brett

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

I'd vote for the Pathfinder over the Twister, as well.  I had a Twister, and it flew well enough to complete the pattern, but not as well as my Pathfinder.  The engine in question is fairly heavy, clear because of the spec sheet.  For example, an O.S. LA 46 is 8.8 oz, fully 3 oz lighter.  And the Twister is 510 square inches, not 620.

[Tim Wescott]

   He means plain-bearing engine (as opposed to ball-bearing). It's not terribly relevant to this problem.

    Brett

Yep.  Sorry about that -- I'm a bit under the weather, and when I'm tired I revert to speaking in nerd.

[Motorman]

That engine's very heavy for a Twister or Banshee. You need something up around 575-600 sq. in. wing to get it to balance without too much wing loading.

Brodak Tanager is my vote.

Motorman

[Ken Culbertson]

I am going to put my 2 cents in for the twister.  Fancherized it is as good as you are all the way up and the extra tail will help balance the motor.  I have flown both the Banshee and the Pathfinder.  The pathfinder is a bit smoother, but it doesn't corner nearly as well. Both are above average profiles, but I would still take the twister.

Ken

[Brent Williams]

With the weight of that Enya, I think you would appreciate the wing area of a larger plane like the Pathfinder(620sq.) or an Imitation(630sq.). 

[Martin Quartim]

The Brodak P40B or better yet the Pathfinder.

The Enya SS40bb has high timings and  will work best in high rpms using 4 pitch props.  Enya SS and CX engine series love APC props, it is a killer combination!

Is your engine fully broken in or new? This engine has Iron Piston and Sleeve and it needs special break in, which is very different than ABC and Ring engines.

There is an SS40 version for heli with  Aluminum Piston Ring but it is a rare engine, most are Iron P/L.

I have done a lot of testing with Enya engines, check out my youtube channel.  I have not tested the SS40 but I did use an SS45, with a bad ring, in a Blue Max, which I believe is not as Strong as an Iron SS40BB with a good P/L fit. I am planing to try the SS40 with my BlueMax soon. I did replace the stock 7.0mm venturi with an 8.5mm to make proper power and 10% nitro and got good results as you can see in the videos.

One problem you may have to deal with using an SS40 in high rpm in a profile is fuel foaming. I normally fix this problem using Sullivan RST tank with Dubro Bronze sinter Filter pick up. If you are building from kit, beef up the nose and make it strong.


Martin

[Kafin Noe’man]

I'd vote for the Pathfinder over the Twister, as well.  I had a Twister, and it flew well enough to complete the pattern, but not as well as my Pathfinder.  The engine in question is fairly heavy, clear because of the spec sheet.  For example, an O.S. LA 46 is 8.8 oz, fully 3 oz lighter.  And the Twister is 510 square inches, not 620.

Hi Peter,

I was just wondering, what would happen if we can get the CG right but the wing area is too small?

[Dave_Trible]

You’d have a noisy drunken elephant..sort of make it useless as a stunt airplane.  I’d want something around 600 sq. in. or better to carry the weight and absorb the power of your Enya.  A Nobler is about 550 and would be too small for it.

Dave

[Gerald Arana]

Hi,

I wanna build a new profile plane for stunt which I’m going to put an ENYA SS40 BB to its nose.

Which of the following is the most suitable kit without doing much mods:
- SIG Banshee
- SIG Twister
- RSM Naughty Girl
- RSM Mark 1
- Brodak P40B

Looking forward to hearing more from you!


Best regards,
Kafin

Kafin, I had a P40-B and it was a very good flier. The twister, as modified by Fancher, is also a very good flier.

Good luck, Jerry

[Kafin Noe’man]

That engine's very heavy for a Twister or Banshee. You need something up around 575-600 sq. in. wing to get it to balance without too much wing loading.

Brodak Tanager is my vote.

Motorman

Is the stabilizer/elevator on the Tanager a build-up?
I think I won’t pick the Pathfinder since it needs more time to build it.

[Kafin Noe’man]

After reading comments and doing more research,
I have narrowed down the option to:
- Brodak Cardinal
- Brodak Tanager
- Brodak P40B

I have crossed out the Pathfinder because I assume it will take longer times to build (due to built-up elevator/stab design). I hope to be able to build quickly.

Any thoughts on this, guys?

[Ken Culbertson]

After reading comments and doing more research,
I have narrowed down the option to:
- Brodak Cardinal
- Brodak Tanager
- Brodak P40B

I have crossed out the Pathfinder because I assume it will take longer times to build (due to built-up elevator/stab design). I hope to be able to build quickly.

Any thoughts on this, guys?

I have flown all of these except the Tanager.  If you are eliminating the twister and Banshee and now the Pathfinder then I would probably take the Cardinal.  It has a good wing but a weak fuselage.  It is a tossup which one flies better between the Pathfinder and Cardinal.

Good luck - post pictures!

Ken

[Motorman]

The Tanager has a 1/4" balsa sheet stab/elev. I don't think you could go wrong with any of your picks.

[Martin Quartim]

It is worth to do the extra job, which is not that much really, and build the Pathfinder.  The wing  is easier to build.

Martin

[Steve Helmick]

Pathfinder, P-40 or Cardinal will do just fine. The last two have tapered wings, which would be more of a challenge than the built-up tail of the Pathfinder. I know the designers of the first two, and assure you that either design would be fine! Steve

[Kafin Noe’man]

I have finally made my decision to go with the Brodak Cardinal.
The other ‘important’ consideration was the dimension.

It has to be fit into my KIA Picanto 

[Ken Culbertson]

I have finally made my decision to go with the Brodak Cardinal.
The other ‘important’ consideration was the dimension.

It has to be fit into my KIA Picanto 

A true Stunt Flier would buy a larger car!

Ken

[kevin king]

Good choice Kafin!

[Kafin Noe’man]

My Brodak Cardinal has finally arrived.
So excited to start building it, while learning how to do stunts with my Banshee.

I’m going to put my ENYA SS40 BB CL + Tongue Muffler on its nose, it will weigh around 11.2 Oz (318 gram) — to my surprise, this is actually way lighter than my Banshee’s OS LA-S 40 with the stock muffler.

What engine is the Brodak Cardinal designed for? How heavy is that engine?
Do I need to cut the nose just like what I was supposed to do for my Banshee?

Kafin

[Ken Culbertson]

My Brodak Cardinal has finally arrived.
So excited to start building it, while learning how to do stunts with my Banshee.

I’m going to put my ENYA SS40 BB CL + Tongue Muffler on its nose, it will weigh around 11.2 Oz (318 gram) — to my surprise, this is actually way lighter than my Banshee’s OS LA-S 40 with the stock muffler.

What engine is the Brodak Cardinal designed for? How heavy is that engine?
Do I need to cut the nose just like what I was supposed to do for my Banshee?

Kafin

BB motors in general are for RC.  They wear better with the massive RPM changes and they allow for much higher RPM's and smaller props than what we would call normal.  They can still be used for stunt just beware that they want to run fast had have considerably more power than the non BB versions.  I originally had a OS46FX on my highly modified Cardinal and it was too much.  It is hard to do maneuvers with a 4.1 lap time on 65' lines.  I "downgraded" to the stunt workhorse OS46LA. 

The Cardinal was designed in the "transition" period between the .35 size motors and the .60 sizes.  I have seen the profile flown successfully with engines from .40 to .51.  The motor you have will work just fine but please find one of us here that can give you a good prop/venturi combination that will tame the beast a bit.

The pix is my Cardinal built from the Brodak wing and plans.  I do modify a bit but it is still a Cardinal at heart!

[john e. holliday]

Really, what do you really want to build, finish and fly.  Everybody has their opinion on a plane for such and auch engine.  That engine is a heavy engine and needs the wing area to handle it  What ever you decide on remember to keep it light and straight.   I have flown my Tanager with the RO-Jett front intake rear exhaust 40 with the exhaust pipe that I leave permanently bolted to the engine.  It makes a great combination for me.

[frank mccune]

      Roadkill Pathfinder!

[Steve Helmick]

My Brodak Cardinal has finally arrived.
So excited to start building it, while learning how to do stunts with my Banshee.

I’m going to put my ENYA SS40 BB CL + Tongue Muffler on its nose, it will weigh around 11.2 Oz (318 gram) — to my surprise, this is actually way lighter than my Banshee’s OS LA-S 40 with the stock muffler.

What engine is the Brodak Cardinal designed for? How heavy is that engine?
Do I need to cut the nose just like what I was supposed to do for my Banshee?

Kafin

As I recall, Windy Urtnowski designed and built the kit prototype "Profile Cardinal" for a K&B .40 Stunt, #4055...a VERY heavy .40. He probably used a tongue muffler, and since he was a partner in a machine shop, I'd guess that it was a 1 off.

I think your Enya .40 will work fine, if you find the right propeller...something like an 11x4 or 11.5x4 APC (or XOAR wood prop) would be where I would start. Remember to adjust lap time with propeller pitch and line length. Try to keep the weight under 50 oz. Also, trim 1/2" off the trailing edge of both wing flaps.  Steve

[Brett Buck]

BB motors in general are for RC.  They wear better with the massive RPM changes and they allow for much higher RPM's and smaller props than what we would call normal.  They can still be used for stunt just beware that they want to run fast had have considerably more power than the non BB versions.

  ??   All the the currently competitive stunt engines (PA RO-Jett and OS VF) are ball bearing, and before that, almost all (ST46, ST60, K&B, all the way back to the Veco 45) were ball-bearing.

  I originally had a OS46FX on my highly modified Cardinal and it was too much.

     Full-size, it the little profile-sized? Windy claimed even the 40VF (the SF's rear-exhaust,  more powerful cousin) wasn't enough for the regular one - because he borrowed my backup engine at the 93 NATs in anticipation of wearing out his in less than a week. That was a rather questionable notion, but, still.

   Profile-sized - well, of course, the SF is *vastly too much* to handle in such a small airplane without a pipe to help regulate it. That was the problem with all the muffled schneurle engines. That's what legions of people found with even such modest engines at the 40FP, trying to put it on Twisters and the like - vastly too much power to handle without detuning. That's why they detune them, and I took the opposite approach - get one half the size.

    Brett

[Air Ministry .]

http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?printertopic=1&t=7431&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&finish_rel=-10000

clickat thetopleft & itll liquidise .

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=9818

Usedem in world champs . bill draper . U.K.





just outof intrest .

[Martin Quartim]

This engine is made with very high quality materials that are hard to wear off and will last for many years. But there is a problem, many came with a very tight P/L fitting and a special  break in procedure is required, or you will hate this engine.

If the engine is hard to start in the beginning you are lucky! you got one with very tight fitting which will yield better power. However, it will require more work during break in.

Two Big mistakes people make using an Enya Engine with Iron P/L

1- I will break in the engine while flying.
2- Run a few tanks with a rich mixture at the bench a few times and then go flying

WARNIG!!!! if you do that the engine may cease during flight when you go up vertically  and you may loose your model !!!

If you do not want to waste time or money,  I strongly suggest you follow this break in instructions if you have a new engine:

First Phase – Thermal Treating
10 short runs of 1min with the needle set so the engine is breaking to 2 in short bursts,  letting the engine totally cool down between runs. Then 8 short runs of 2 min and  6 of 3min (perhaps the 6x3min is not necessary but I do it anyway)

Second Phase - Unleashing the Power!
3 to 5 runs of 6 minutes with the same needle setting as in phase 1. Depending on how tight the engine is, it may require more or less runs. In this phase I pinch the fuel line with care to make the engine peak rpm for 10 seconds, then I release the fuel line, wait for about 25s and repeat the process till the end of 6min. Pay attention, I said PEAK rpm, not just high rpm, if you do not maintain the absolute max rpm the engine can sustain, this will not work! The  top rpm can improves significantly in this stage. A tight engine will seems weak....but wait until you are done!! I call the engine ready to fly when I see that there is no more gain in the peak rpm and as soon as I release the fuel line the rpm returns back immediately to the set rpm.

The reason for the 2nd phase is because the Iron P/L Engine when hot, the piston  grows a bit more then the Liner and the piston can get stuck during flight when going up because the temperature raises very fast! After the engine quits it will cool instantly and it will feel normal again, no harm done!  ABC/ABN engines do the opposite, the liner grows more than the piston and it gets more loose.

Martin

[Kafin Noe’man]

As I recall, Windy Urtnowski designed and built the kit prototype "Profile Cardinal" for a K&B .40 Stunt, #4055...a VERY heavy .40. He probably used a tongue muffler, and since he was a partner in a machine shop, I'd guess that it was a 1 off.

I just reviewed the plan, and you are right Steve.
The engine on the plan is K&B .40 Stunt — which is way heavier than my ENYA.

So, it’s a good news for me. I’m pretty excited to finish this kit soon.

[Kafin Noe’man]

This engine is made with very high quality materials that are hard to wear off and will last for many years. But there is a problem, many came with a very tight P/L fitting and a special  break in procedure is required, or you will hate this engine.

Thank you so much for your reminder.
I will definitely do what you have suggested for my Brand New ENYA SS40 BB.

However, I also have another ENYA SS40 BB (second-hand from shtterman Ebay, has been broken-in) which I’m going to put into my Banshee just because I’m getting tired dealing with my OS LA-S 40. For this engine, do I need to do as you mentioned?

I was told to only run it really rich for a while to get plenty of castor, run rich but not like a full break in.

And since the dimension of ENYA is a bit bigger than the LA, I just enlarged the mounting but I messed up when drilling the bolt hole. Is it still okay to mount engine with this loose hole?

[Ken Culbertson]

I would put some metal tubing sleeves around your mounting bolts through the fuselage from the outside then epoxy them in and fill any open spaces with epoxy then file them even with the mounts.  I do this on all of my planes with a metal to wood mount.  You can also put thin plates on both sides, most importantly the outside.  Exhaust and fuel will get in and the motor will loosen easier if you leave the holes unattended.  However, if you keep it tight and use larger than normal washers on the outside, it will stay on, but it will be more prone to vibration and oil soaking.

Don't forget the weight.  It will fly differently if you don't rebalance it to where it was before.  Just be prepared on the first flight.

Good luck - Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

Profile-sized - well, of course, the SF is *vastly too much* to handle in such a small airplane without a pipe to help regulate it. That was the problem with all the muffled schneurle engines. That's what legions of people found with even such modest engines at the 40FP, trying to put it on Twisters and the like - vastly too much power to handle without detuning. That's why they detune them, and I took the opposite approach - get one half the size.

    Brett

You got that part right.  Problem was getting a header and pipe.  I tried all of the usual suspects and came up empty, or on a list that would maybe get me one in a couple of years.  I really did want to use that engine in a 710sq PA I was building and, since it did come out a tad heavy it would have been a good fit.  A friend had a 46LA just gathering dust which was just right.  Moved to electric and I don't have problems getting pipes anymore!

Ken

[Kafin Noe’man]

I would put some metal tubing sleeves around your mounting bolts through the fuselage from the outside then epoxy them in and fill any open spaces with epoxy then file them even with the mounts. 
Good luck - Ken

Yes, thank you Ken!
This is exactly what I was thinking.
Might probably be using the rivet nuts as well.

[Martin Quartim]

Thank you so much for your reminder.
I will definitely do what you have suggested for my Brand New ENYA SS40 BB.

However, I also have another ENYA SS40 BB (second-hand from shtterman Ebay, has been broken-in) which I’m going to put into my Banshee just because I’m getting tired dealing with my OS LA-S 40. For this engine, do I need to do as you mentioned?

I was told to only run it really rich for a while to get plenty of castor, run rich but not like a full break in.

And since the dimension of ENYA is a bit bigger than the LA, I just enlarged the mounting but I messed up when drilling the bolt hole. Is it still okay to mount engine with this loose hole?

It is possible that the used engine you got still needs break in. Many folks sell this engine because they didn´t know how to break in and got a horrible experience, and in this case you can try start from the 2nd phase. Or if you want to play safe, do it from the 1st phase.

In the 1st phase you will be running the engine quite rich. Do you understand when we say 2 stroking and 4 stroking?

Martin

[Martin Quartim]

Thank you so much for your reminder.
I will definitely do what you have suggested for my Brand New ENYA SS40 BB.

However, I also have another ENYA SS40 BB (second-hand from shtterman Ebay, has been broken-in) which I’m going to put into my Banshee just because I’m getting tired dealing with my OS LA-S 40. For this engine, do I need to do as you mentioned?

I was told to only run it really rich for a while to get plenty of castor, run rich but not like a full break in.

And since the dimension of ENYA is a bit bigger than the LA, I just enlarged the mounting but I messed up when drilling the bolt hole. Is it still okay to mount engine with this loose hole?

as far as the elongated hole, you are fine. I suggest you use a 1/16 or 3/32 aluminum pad that is larger than the engine mount to better distribute the mounting  pressure on the wood.

Martins

[Kafin Noe’man]

It is possible that the used engine you got still needs break in. Many folks sell this engine because they didn´t know how to break in and got a horrible experience, and in this case you can try start from the 2nd phase. Or if you want to play safe, do it from the 1st phase.

In the 1st phase you will be running the engine quite rich. Do you understand when we say 2 stroking and 4 stroking?

Martin

Hi Martin,

I know what it means, but still can’t tell the difference in real life.

[Kafin Noe’man]

I just made a stupid mistake.
I accidentally drop a single drop of CA into my engine (the location is shown on the picture) — picture for the location reference only


I immediately wiped it out though.
Do you think it still could go through to the inside and ruin the engine?

[Craig Beswick]

I just made a stupid mistake.
I accidentally drop a single drop of CA into my engine (the location is shown on the picture) — picture for the location reference only


I immediately wiped it out though.
Do you think it still could go through to the inside and ruin the engine?

No

[John Carrodus]

Kafin , do you have a mate or a club nearby where you can get some support and advice in person? I find the guys in my club are great for picking their brains and supporting each other.
Cheers
John (NZ)

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hi Martin,

I have finally flown my Banshee with ENYA SS40 BB.
I was really happy with the combination. I still need more flights to confirm it, but I guess it’s promising for my stunt training, though. 

And since it’s a broken-in-second-hand engine, I just did a quick ‘break-in’ with a rich mixture (NVA opening 3 turns). It started easily in one flip.

The mixture on the first two flights was rich (3 turns and 2 turns respectively) — I didn’t really like it since it was too slow (around 7 sec per lap)

I tried to set it leaner (1 1/4 turns) on my third and fourth flights and it was really good! Good power, good line tension, and good lap time (around 5 sec) — probably too fast.
Here’s the video:


How would you rate that engine setting? Was that too lean? Or do you have any other concerns?
Looking forward to hearing more from you.

Thank you!

Kafin

[Motorman]

I think that was too lean. Seemed to lose power in a loop. What prop was on it, what size is the venturi?

[Air Ministry .]

If you warm the epoxy ( NOT 5 minute ) till its runny , smearing it around the nose stiffens & fuel proofs it . Scrape all the loose stuff away first .

You can sort of pic thye 4 / 2 here , at 2 : 15 in the vertical eight , in the top half its running even - 2 stroke . LOWER its running blubbery ( Rich ) 4 stroke . !



GENERALLY , on the ground , you get it needle opened till it gets 4 stroking , and lift the nose . at around 20 or 30 degrees NOSE UP , it should get into the 2 stroke .

45 nose up switch is more like in the movie . Initially you dont want it wallowing around rich till you know it keeps the LINES TIGHT , and keeps moving .

If its light on the lines , Engine offset , slight rudder offset , and TIP WEIGHT is good in the wind ! The experts'll start whingeing about HINGEING .
The outer tip flunging ! a bit tends to keep the wires taught , till youve got the hang of it all . Comps , theyre supposed to fly flat to the lines . For us neat & tidy types .

Then theres the " I no longer break wooden propellors " and youve got it . And the " I wear white clothes " Traditionally , on a British Bike , Itd mean youd run out of oil ! 

[Air Ministry .]

The Bloke with the funny hat , at 11:00 , is Mr S S Enya , Bill Draper . Think theres a Flight of his in there somewhere , for a ' Howsa Enyago look ' .at 9:00

[Kafin Noe’man]

I think that was too lean. Seemed to lose power in a loop. What prop was on it, what size is the venturi?

Prop size is 11 x 4 and venturi is 7.0 mm

[Ken Culbertson]

I will let the motor guys jump in on that count.  I am more concerned with the flying.  Getting better.  I can see that you are working up to going inverted.  Watch starting at 3:13 in Air Ministry's video and you will find some really nice lazy eights.  Do your first one on a day with a little, not too much, wind.  Do the first loop into the wind a bit then at the 3/4 loop part give it down instead of up.  Don't worry if you over control it at first, we all did.  The wind is there to keep your lines tight if it stalls.  As you get the feel stretch them out like the video and before you know it you are flying inverted.  This is the part where you make sure you have a spare needle valve.

Just curious, are the wiggles at the end of your loops you or the plane?

Keep it up!

Ken

[Air Ministry .]

With the ' bobbles ' out of the loops , I think youve got   S t r e t c h y wire !

If you lay out your lines , and run down Each Wire , with a rag . They Spin .( when the spin is gone - theyre less ' springy ' )

( you have them on the handle - unconnected at the other end . Stake or get someone to hold the handle .
 you can put one wire in each palm , under the thumb . Paper Towel will do .)

Usually , NEW LINES - you run down each wire six times , then theyre straight - YOU LOOSE HALF THE STRETCH
so it steers a lot more direct & not as rubbery . SIG lines are particularly prone to this .
======================================================
Stretch is one reason some people use solid lines for competition . theyre very direct . Not Neccesary at all & high care reqd.

A little thing, but makes life a lot easier . Keep it up - Air Time is the main thing , Avoiding crashes & mistakes when you can .   

Its going pretty good . Small plane . a 1/4 in ( 6 .5 mm ) would do , for more fuel draw . Maybe a extra head gasket would soften the needle response & tame it a bit too .

Should be a veery versatile engine . A lot of people like the Enya 30 SS . Search on these , and you may get usefull info . ( also a streamer steadys it up and makes it easier to see -
but dont tell anyone here , theyll all have a fit .  )