spectra lines legal for stunt at Broken Arrow?

[aj bagg]

I've never flown a stunt contest and am planning on going to fly at the Broken Arrow event at Buder in St. Louis. I've been flying on spectra for years and don't want to use cable again. Anyone know if spectra is legal?

[Dan McEntee]

  Hi AJ;
    I  DO NOT believe that Spectra lines are legal for any AMA sanctioned stunt contest. Common up and maybe we can scrounge you up a set of lines to borrow, just let us know ahead of time what size and length you need so we can look around. Hope to see you!
  Dan McEntee

[Paul Walker]

They are NOT legal for AMA sanctioned STUNT contests at this time. There is a rules proposal to allow them in the current cycle, and it looks like it will be approved, but for now, they are not legal for competition.

[aj bagg]

Thankyou. I had read the rules but just couldn't believe they were not legal...yet. I have cable but have only got them out once since I started using spectra 25 yrs. ago. Probably require retrimming the plane for cable.
 

[Brett Buck]

Thankyou. I had read the rules but just couldn't believe they were not legal...yet. I have cable but have only got them out once since I started using spectra 25 yrs. ago. Probably require retrimming the plane for cable.

   No one proposed using them until the last rules cycle, and that proposal was written in such a way that it couldn't have been complied with, so it was not passed. The current proposal (that has not yet been voted on) eliminates any reference to the material used for the lines, since we pull test before every flight anyway, which would allow "Spectra" lines.

    Brett

[the original Steve Smith]

As CD of a sanctioned contest, I must comply with the current rules.  So unfortunately the Spectra lines are not allowed due to the rules in effect at this time.

Hope you can find a set of legal lines and test them out before the contest!  Looking forward to seeing you here in St. Louis!

Steve Smith
CD Broken Arrow 33

[aj bagg]

I had 25-30 yr old cable but none long enough. But I won a bulk spool of .018" sevenstrand at the Buder Fun Fly Raffle. So I made a set the same length as my spectra to yield a radius of 69' 10". The lines being .018" weighed a whopping ounce and a half more than the spectra. Both planes I planned to fly with these, a box stock Skyray XL (serial #0001 pre production as far as I know) and a Skyray Coupe @ 560" w flaps barely noticed the cable. All I did was lean them out a click. So I went looking through my planes to see if I had anything that would qualify for another event, as long as I'm jumping in to fly this event I might as well fly as much as I can! All I came up with ready to fly was a Ringmaster. A fast Ringmaster with the tank built into the wing and with just enough capacity to get thru a pattern if it is fully leaned out. Flies a great pattern at speed (I think) but would it be embarrassing to fly such a crate in classic stunt?

[the original Steve Smith]

aj,

If you can learn the Old Time pattern by Saturday you could fly that Ringmaster in Old Time as well as Classic! 

Steve

[Steve Helmick]

OR, have somebody kneeling/sitting/laying in the grass near enough to the pilot to talk him through the various patterns... worthwhile also mentioning the 2 level laps between tricks. Might want to ask permission to do this, but I see it done fairly frequently. Alternative is to ask for a score sheet to go by, tho not having any details about of how the maneuvers are to be done can lead to a loss of Pattern Points.

When I judge OTS (reluctantly), I often see pilots doing "PA 8's" instead of the "Lazy 8's", in all forms, horizontal, vertical and overhead. Some even crash in the wingover, having not thought through the direction of the pullout. Sadly...     Steve

[aj bagg]

Thank you all for all the help. My first stunt contest was a blast. And I'm looking forward to the next one. I'll be building some more planes so I can fly more classes. I plan on being back to Buder next weekend for Speed.

[Jared Hays]

When is/was the Broken Arrow Stunt contest.  I have gone the last couple years but hadn't seen anything about it this year, figured it was canceled due to covid

[the original Steve Smith]

I'm really sorry Jaryd it was last weekend.  We did miss you.

I did post here in the Events section and Fred posted as well in the main forum.

Send me your email in a PM and I will make sure we invite you to our events coming up this year and next year.

Steve

[bob whitney]

the O/T lazy 8 is not a Lazy 8 but a PA 8  started differently .the center should not be an X

[Joe Ed Pederson]

I'm really sorry Jaryd it was last weekend.  We did miss you.


Steve

With Steve, I want to say I missed you and your father and your beautiful Aires.

Hope to see you and your father next year.

Joe Ed Pederson

[Chuck Matheny]

I've never flown a stunt contest and am planning on going to fly at the Broken Arrow event at Buder in St. Louis. I've been flying on spectra for years and don't want to use cable again. Anyone know if spectra is legal?

I've only tried this type of line on planes .15 sized and under. For this application I prefer fishing tackle over twisted steel.
I am curious to know if any "competitive" stunt flyers have tried the "fishing tackle". I doubt it, because they have so much invested in their work and steel seems to work well enough.
 

[Jared Hays]

With Steve, I want to say I missed you and your father and your beautiful Aires.

Hope to see you and your father next year.

Joe Ed Pederson

Yeah darn it, missed it by one weekend lol, Ill definitely try to make it next year with my dad again!

[Trostle]

(Clip)

When I judge OTS (reluctancly), I often see pilots doing "PA 8's" instead of the "Lazy 8's", in all forms, horizontal, vertical and overhead. Some even crash in the wingover, having not thought through the direction of the pullout. Sadly...     Steve

Steve,

I should have inquired when this first appeared.  When you "judge OTS (relunctancly  [sic])" and see pilots doing PA eights instead of the OTS eights, how do you score the maneuver?  Yes, the OTS horizontal eight are essentially "lazy eights" although the intersections are to be vertical and the intersections have the model going down in the intersections.  OTS vertical eights can present a problem to the judge since they can be started at the bottom or the center of the maneuver and either part of the eight can be flown first, all different than how the PA vertical eights are to be flown.  Same quandary with the overhead eights as the horizontal eights. 


What kind of point deduction do you give when you see PA eights rather than some form of the rule book OTS eights?  Or do you give any points at all for doing what could be termed as an unrecognizable maneuver since the PA eights do not resemble anything that the OTS rules define as eights, even with the various OTS legal variations.

Keith

[Steve Helmick]

Steve,

I should have inquired when this first appeared.  When you "judge OTS (relunctancly  [sic])" and see pilots doing PA eights instead of the OTS eights, how do you score the maneuver?  Yes, the OTS horizontal eight are essentially "lazy eights" although the intersections are to be vertical and the intersections have the model going down in the intersections.  OTS vertical eights can present a problem to the judge since they can be started at the bottom or the center of the maneuver and either part of the eight can be flown first, all different than how the PA vertical eights are to be flown.  Same quandary with the overhead eights as the horizontal eights. 


What kind of point deduction do you give when you see PA eights rather than some form of the rule book OTS eights?  Or do you give any points at all for doing what could be termed as an unrecognizable maneuver since the PA eights do not resemble anything that the OTS rules define as eights, even with the various OTS legal variations.

Keith

It seems like 3-4 years ago, and I don't recall for certain...but probably zero for improper maneuver. Likely conferred with the other judge on that, but I have no idea who that would have been. It was at Fall Fallies (sic) in Salem, though. I remember who one of the fliers was...an anonymous Stunt Chick...but I think there were others.    Steve 

[Steve Helmick]

I've only tried this type of line on planes .15 sized and under. For this application I prefer fishing tackle over twisted steel.
I am curious to know if any "competitive" stunt flyers have tried the "fishing tackle". I doubt it, because they have so much invested in their work and steel seems to work well enough.
 

IF I remember correctly, a certain NW former WC and many time NATS Champ has been flying with Spectra lines at the Walker Stunt Ranch and is an enthusiastic supporter of the Spectra lines on his PA planes. I'm not privy to the info on WHICH of his planes he's flying on them, but pretty certain it's not either of the B-17's. 

Last rule cycle, there was a rule proposal to allow "GSUMP" lines, which is apparently the engineering/chemical term for Spectra. But it does no good when the boxes or spools do not say "GSUMP", so that was rejected. It is important to get your Spectra line from a reliable source, because there have been reports of bogus "spectra" line sold on eBay.     Steve

[Trostle]

It seems like 3-4 years ago, and I don't recall for certain...but probably zero for improper maneuver. Likely conferred with the other judge on that, but I have no idea who that would have been. It was at Fall Fallies (sic) in Salem, though. I remember who one of the fliers was...an anonymous Stunt Chick...but I think there were others.    Steve

Not that this makes any difference, but there are some interesting things to note about the OTS eights when compared to the current PA eights.

Regarding the horizontal OTS eights, the rule book is clear.  There is only one way to fly these OTS eights.  Only one way to enter the maneuver, only one way for the intersections to go (down) and only one way for the exit.  This is in no way comparable to the PA eights.

The vertical OTS eights are defined such that really, they can be flown one of at least six ways.  Of course, the OTS eights require three consecutive eights where the PA eights require two.  One of those six variations is the same as the PA eights (except for the number) since the rules for both OTS and PA do not define what path the airplane must follow immediately prior to the start nor the path which must be taken immediately after the finish of either of those eights.

As has been discussed on this and other forums, it behooves the pilot to execute the OTS eights in the manner that these eights are generally flown.  If a variation is planned, the pilot should inform the judges what he plans to do so the judges are not standing there with bewilderment in their eyes, trying to figure out what they just saw.  That generally does not lead to a good score regardless of how well the eights were technically and correctly flown.

Same thing applies to the OTS outside loops.  There are two ways to correctly do these.  Same advice to the pilot to let the judges know before hand if the seldom flown alternative is to be flown.

Keith