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Author Topic: Yaw, how much is too much?  (Read 1738 times)

Offline Dane Martin

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Yaw, how much is too much?
« on: February 18, 2018, 09:26:40 AM »
After a flight test, I determined I needed to raise my LO guide.  During my hang test, this is what my plane looks like. Looks like that might be a lot of nose out. So far, I only changed the vertical. Should I just test fly it and see how it feels this time?

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 09:30:37 AM »
The top pic there is with the corrected vertical LO adjustment made. The reason I decided to change it after the first test flight is because of the wing level. Looked like this in flight.

Offline EddyR

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 09:38:55 AM »
Unless you are going to fly it very slow your leadouts are to far back for any stunt plane . It looks like yours are at 50%. Lots of old planes show that as they thought that was a way to trim plane. I have seen some at 75 % but what we use now is much better . Just get it to hang level or slightly nose down and try it.
 I bet you already new this. Some people do not and they still use huge amounts of rudder offset.
 Have fun.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline EddyR

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 09:46:22 AM »
Dane    When I looked at your photo I thought  it looked like Las Vegas or near Phoenix. I looked up your bio and I see you are near Las Vegas.
  I have some friends who moved from there last year to here in Concord NC. It was a shock to them as they say ever thing is go green.
Ed
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 03:45:09 PM by EddyR »
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Garf

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 09:57:16 AM »
If you want to see green, try Miami.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 09:57:55 AM »
Thanks Eddy. You are correct. I'm in Las Vegas. Not much green around here!
This plane is built per the plans, but I did make everything adjustable. So I used the plans to get my initial LO setting. I will move them forward. Thank you!

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 10:39:56 AM »
Put a line level on the nose to be sure you have level or "slightly" nose down. There is one graduated in fractions of an inch per foot,by far the easiest to use. It eliminates your "slightly" compared to my "slightly". Place the level in the motor crutch area of the nose while hanging the plane from the leadouts.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
I wouldn't take her to a dog fight even if she had a chance to win.
The worst part of growing old is remembering when you were young.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 10:57:01 AM »
As long as the nose is slightly down while hanging, it is safe to fly. 
91 years, but still going
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 11:59:59 AM »
After a flight test, I determined I needed to raise my LO guide.  During my hang test, this is what my plane looks like. Looks like that might be a lot of nose out. So far, I only changed the vertical. Should I just test fly it and see how it feels this time?

   It's not yawed out that far in flight, for several reasons. The most important is that the lines don't make a straight line to your handle to the airplane - they lag behind, well behind in fact. It depends on the weight and the line size, but its on the order of 2-3 degrees. There was a paper written on the topic:

http://z6.ifrm.com/4811/197/0/p1016257/LineDrag2000.pdf

    which dates back to the 50s. A slightly erroneous version was published as nomographs by Wild Bill back in the 50's, later corrected with wind tunnel data (they didn't accomodate, or didn't correctly consider, the variation in the Reynolds number, as I recall). There is also a computer program floating around to calculated it, called LINEII, which was later ported to other versions of the unfortunate Microsoft Windows operating system by Bob Reeves as LINEIII.

     My approach to trimming uses this calculation to set the (dry) leadout sweep to match the calculation of the line sag. I then adjust the rudder offset to get the minimum yaw reaction in the corners. That will yield a yaw angle that is tangent to the circle at the end of the flight, and will result in the leadouts not applying force to the guide. What you can't do, in my opinion, is try to control the yaw angle with the leadouts, unless you also adjust the rudder to get them in sync. Ancient trim techniques set the rudder however it was, left it alone, then try to adjust the leadouts for "best" performance - which usually resulted in the aerodynamics wanting to yaw the airplane nose-out in level flight, and the leadouts forcing it back close to tangent. That's swell as long as you only ever fly level at a constant speed.

      As soon as the tension or speed changes (particularly, when the tension goes up entering a corner while the airplane slows down) you will get some sort of reaction in the lines - usually, dragging the nose inboard to start, but far more importantly, getting the lines swinging back and forth (line whip). It also tends to roll in at you, leading you to want to have a lot of tipweight for that condition. Of course, now the tip weight is excessive for less extreme conditions. We call that "Twister Disease" where if you set it up per the plans, tremendous rudder offset and "straight out" leadouts, you will find it essentially impossible to trim the roll axis.

   Your angle might be too much for a heavy airplane on minimum-size short lines, it may be just right for a light airplane with heavy lines. A few minutes with a calculator or with LINEIII will let you know which.

    Brett

  p.s. I read some of the other responses. Your leadouts must be substantially aft of the CG (which is what you show) unless you have large amounts of rudder offset  to fight it with, and that arrangement leads to "Twister Disease" as noted. I would guess 1" behind is about right assuming .015 x 60 lines. It cannot be level unless you also add a bunch of rudder offset because the line sag will make it try to yaw nose-in.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 01:01:14 PM »
I have no rudder offset, maybe just enough to be out. My test flight so far was on 58' lines, just to be sure there was plenty of tension. As pictured, it's about 1.75 behind the CG.

With the os 25 LA singing, it had plenty of power. I just did insides, outsides, inverted and inside squares as my test. I'm hoping to fly this in classic at VSC.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 03:46:37 PM »
Dane,
Basic rule for stunt ship is to set the center of the line guide (assume 3/4" separations) 5/8" back from the  average cord CG location then adjust from there. This will give the nose about 5 deg low if hung from the leads.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2018, 02:45:58 PM »
I believe I corrected the CG. I added .5 oz to the tail. The moved the CG back to the spar.  (Plans location). That allowed the LO to be able to shift back. This looks about normal, right?
Then of course dynamic flight testing will be in order. Just thinking this should get me closer.

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: Yaw, how much is too much?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2018, 07:09:03 PM »
when I first starting flying my 96" span B-29 the outboard props were getting damaged and I finally figured out that the leadout guide was too low. What was happening was the wings were rolling to the right has the lines went to full line tension causing the outboard prop to hit the ground. I had to raise the line guide until the model was level as viewed from the front when it was coming in for a landing. When the model is on the ground the lines angle up to the 5 foot level at the pilot, on a smaller model not a big deal. But when I have 4 feet of wing and the distance made a difference and caused the model to roll to the right just before landing or takeoff.

If the wing is 90 degrees vertical to the floor as shown in your one picture (hanging from the ceiling) then you should be good shape.

As for much line rake, you needs will depend on the size of the model and how fast you fly.

Rudder offset is not required, the line rake will give you the line tension, I have several models that do not have any rudder at all, and all of my CL scale models have zero rudder offset and they fly just fine. In fact on the B-29 the model pulls like a tank at 14 lbs with zero rudder offset.

Fred
Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

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