FAI, CIAM, WADA and Drug Testing

[Derek Barry]

Thanks for the update Bill.

I agree, looks like it was a money deal for some people, probably those who were doing the voting.

So, who wants to go to Poland now?

Derek

[Brett Buck]

Is it time for an organization for international aeromodeling other than the FAI?

    Long past time, I would say.

    Bottom line is the same, forget it, I am as clean as you can be in terms of drugs, but I am not risking it. On the other hand, it saves me a 6 day car trip every other year.

     Brett



p.s. Here are a few gems of wisdom:

Please also consider the following. As competitors, we are accepting the current set of rules and we are checking our models, before the event, to verify whether they comply with the rules and not even that, we are also accepting that we can be checked even during the competition, for complying with the model specifications rules. And in cases where the officials are finding out that some rules were bended, then all of us, are not feeling the same, for the competitor or competitors who did so.

I am sure that we are all going to feel the same, if we discover that a modeler had used prohibited drugs on purpose, in order to improve his performance. Don’t you agree?

    Well, no, I don't agree. First, I don't care if anyone tries to "cheat" on the technical requirements for the airplanes. First, there's no practical way to cheat, since you can build essentially anything you want in any manner you want, and in FAI, you can get someone else to build it for you. I accept the word of my competitors. Second, if someone wants to use some sort of drug to enhance their performance, let them go right ahead. If they are stupid enough to do drugs, they deserve the consequences, i.e. losing. In fact if they want to use steroids and andro, plus testosterone, in an injection right before the finals, I approve, they are suckers. If they take Phil C's anti-yips stuff, swell, I'll take you on clean and win anyway.

     The real problem with FAI stunt it the amateur hour contest organization and the repeated proven cases of judge malfeasance. This does nothing to correct either one.

Regarding the comments you have seen on the internet about the standards and the quality of the doping control tests, I can tell you that the tests are not going to be conducted by FAI or CIAM or AMA but they are going to be conducted by certified doping control officers by WADA or National Anti-doping Agencies (like USADA) and the samples are going to be tested in WADA recognized labs. The procedure is going to be identical to the tests conducted during Olympic Games.

The procedure FAI is implementing right now, is because WADA, has not enough information about airsports. As soon as this information will be available and hopefully to prove that airsports are “clean” sports, then the doping control testing in airsports will be kept in low numbers.

Also I would like to let you know, that WADA rules are supra national rules, similar to UN rules or decisions.

   Well, there you go, it's like the UN. Case closed.

    Brett

[Randy Powell]

Well, were I an international competitor, I probably wouldn't be worried about it initially, but the problem comes it how detailed they get. In professional sports, it's gotten to the point were you can't take an asperin without permission from the drug testing guys. They test for so many things that it's easy to eat the wrong thing or take what you thought was some innocent over the counter medication or even something you have a prescription for and have it tagged as a PED.

Guy on the Seahawks this year got busted for PEDs. He had a prescription for methylphenidate from his personal physician (according to a local sports news report). It was posted with the NFL through the process you have to use for any prescription. He still got busted and had to have a hearing when it turned up in a blood test. He was ultimately exonerated, but it was quite a circus for a bit.

So I suppose it depends on how crazy they get. What is a prohibited drug? Steriods and Human Growth Hormone? OK, that's fine. But what about other stuff. What if you are taking Depakote for a seizure disorder? That's on the MLB and NFL list of prohibited drugs because of a side effect. What if you are taking fluticasone propionate for allergies? Another prohibited drug in pro sports because it has a steriod in it.

I'm with Brett, I guess it saves a trip.

[Brett Buck]

So I suppose it depends on how crazy they get. What is a prohibited drug? Steriods and Human Growth Hormone? OK, that's fine. But what about other stuff. What if you are taking Depakote for a seizure disorder? That's on the MLB and NFL list of prohibited drugs because of a side effect. What if you are taking fluticasone propionate for allergies? Another prohibited drug in pro sports because it has a steriod in it.

     All that and more. Caffeine was on there for a while (not now) - have a cup of coffee at the Bulgarian Holiday Inn, work at McDonalds for the rest of your life.

   But that's not the real issue. I assume that none of it is performance enhancing in stunt, and probably not in any other event so it's worthless at best, and counterproductive at worst. You can get a "Theraputic use exception" by submitting it to someone (Bill tried and and couldn't figure it out) and having them approve it - because they are also testing *team managers*!! A prescription from the doctor is not enough. Some mystery organization decides.

   But the real problem is a *false positive* or a *manipulated sample*. The testing is done by the "National Anti-Doping Authority" which means local officials in whatever country it is. Who is going to risk absolutely everything on some foreign country's lab results- to fly in a (usually) poorly-run model airplane contest? What legal recourse do you have in US courts and with the US DOD, FAA, etc or other governmental agency if it comes up positive in Bulgaria? The answer is - none, you are screwed and no one will ever care why. You will be labelled a cheat and a dope user for the rest of your life.

   Brett

[Randy Powell]

Exactly. I have a job were a positive test, regardless of the reason, would mean the end of my career. Period. Not worth it to me, that's certain.

But then, there was never a chance that I would be on the team, so it's a moot point for me. But I can certainly see why others would suddenly become uninterested in international competition.

[Derek Barry]

Exactly. I have a job were a positive test, regardless of the reason, would mean the end of my career. Period. Not worth it to me, that's certain.

But then, there was never a chance that I would be on the team, so it's a moot point for me. But I can certainly see why others would suddenly become uninterested in international competition.

Working for a small company I doubt if a positive result from another country would get me fired, if they were that worried about it they could give me one here in the states and clear up the whole mess. My big problem is the fact that a false positive could get your metal (assuming you won one, or the team one one) stripped and like Brett said you would be labled a cheat and a druggie for the rest of your days. Not to mention the money you would have wasted making the team and traveling to a world champs.

Derek

[Dennis Toth]

Guys,
How is the AMA involved with the FAI? Since these drug rules are "over all" would any organization that is part of the core organization (FAI) be in any way required to implament them even though our event rules are different? Seems that this could get forced on us and be a requirement at other events. Where does it end?

I agree with Brett on this one as long as the person isn't impaired - who cares.

Best,         DennisT

[Dave Rolley]

Remember, these rules started with international sports, generally under the International Olympic Committee. One of the banned substances is supplemental oxygen.

When the FAI originally applied these rules to full size aviation, the prohibition on the use of supplemental oxygen was blindly carried forward.

For those of you that aren't full sized aircraft pilot, national aviation regulations REQUIRE the use of supplemental oxygen. The FAI's position immediately invalidated all aviation performances above the required oxygen use altitudes (in the USA these regulations start at 12,500 feet about sea level). There was a BIG OOPS recognition at the FAI. The use of supplemental oxygen has been approved for those categories of activities.

There is the precedence for exceptions to the usage/testing rules.

Dave Rolley

[Brett Buck]

I'm reading all this and really trying not to laugh.  The only performance enhancement I can think of is a better engine, fuel, prop, wing design, etc.  So just what drug could I personally take to get me into the top 5 at the NATS.  Tylenol for my back ache?  I don't need big muscles to handle the model due to rules that keep them from becoming that big.  I'm too old for a growth hormone, I'm pretty much stuck at 5' 7" on a good day. No other growth is needed. (Wifes opinion and why I love her).
Isn't it bad enough the damn UN is trying to take over our country and now the FAI is going take over the AMA and us. Screw the FAI.

   It would be funny if it weren't taking something simple that a lot of people care about, and making it impossible.

    By the way, the FAI is the self-appointed (near as I can tell) "world organization" for all airplane and space-related activities. This led to absurdities like the Apollo astronauts having to get an FAI Sporting License to get their altitude records (and other records made up for the event) "recognized" as world records. The FAI is a collection of "National Aero Clubs". The NAA, National Aeronautic Association, is the recognized "National Aero Club" for the US. This includes all aviation activities. There are clubs underneath that for various things. The largest single club, BY FAR, is the AMA. I don't have the numbers but at one time it was 2x or more the total of all the rest.

   So, effectively, the AMA is far and away the largest block of members in the FAI. However, every teeny little country in the world including places where 2 guys fly airplanes and another likes to look at magazines gets the same representation as the US. I also suspect if you look at the dues money it would be disproportionately from the US - just like the UN. And just like the UN, the process for imposing things like this is opaque, not responsive to the members, and is controlled by a tiny few, mostly non-participants.


   Stunt has been pretty good, you should see what goes on in the model rocket divisions, it's a joke, and it's controlled by a few Eastern European countries, blatantly, to make it very difficult for anyone else to have a chance. The US has done fairly well despite this, but most of the event rules are so completely rigged that the events are of no interest to the average modeler. As an example, how would you like to prepare for a WC but not be able to test-fly anything before you arrive, and buy your engine, sight unseen, at the event?

   I see no indication that there is anything like drug testing required for any AMA contest, so the solution seems to be to forget about these stupid little FAI contests and just go to the NATs. Saves travel, saves having to build take-apart models, saves BOM. Most people weren't going to go to a WC anyway. I turned down a chance in 2009 due to other commitments and may have never gotten another chance anyway. But for those who wanted to do this, this is the end, I suspect.

   And as far as I can tell, we no longer need the FAI for anything. I can set up a contest and call it whatever I chose, and if enough people come to it, it will be a de facto WC anyway. Recall that the only thing you get from any hobby contest is the recognition of your peers. That can be achieved WITHOUT the FAI.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

Please do not hesitate to contact me or Mrs Segolene Rouillon (FAI Anti-Doping Manager - antidoping@fai.org  for any further questions or clarifications you might need.

What's Mr. Papadopoulos's address?   Let's all tell him what we think.  Better yet, how can he be replaced?

[Brett Buck]

What's Mr. Papadopoulos's address?   Let's all tell him what we think.  Better yet, how can he be replaced?

  For the most part I think that would be shooting the messenger, although:

The procedure FAI is implementing right now, is because WADA, has not enough information about airsports. As soon as this information will be available and hopefully to prove that airsports are “clean” sports, then the doping control testing in airsports will be kept in low numbers.

Also I would like to let you know, that WADA rules are supra national rules, similar to UN rules or decisions.

  this one is like poking a bear with a stick. to paraphrase "They don't know what they are doing, so hopefully the level of abuse will go down if we make them like us. Besides, it's the UN, what can be done? It's better than national. (throw up our hands, what can we do about it?").   Tell me about "supra-national" anything, and all I hear is "degraded to "world" standards". I would just about rather hear a lecture about the benefits of the metric system.

    Brett

[Howard Rush]

An international competition inherently involves other countries.  I don't think attacking the "supra-national" aspect makes much sense. 

It appears that Mr. Papadopoulos, by using that term, was desperately looking for an argument in defense of something that we agree is inherently absurd.  He shows no interest in advocating for our position.  Hence my wondering why he is the CIAM president and how he can be replaced by someone familiar with and supportive of model aviation.  It appears that the FAI has a dream of becoming Big Time, participating in the Olympics, and getting big TV money.  Why can't we wait to be "clean" until this trickles down to F2? 

I think our petitioning (maybe to Mr. Papadopoulos, maybe to the AMA) should use these arguments:

1. F2 is an amateur sport with no sponsors to embarrass. 

2. We do not care a whit if a person against whom we are competing uses any drug.

3. Reliable enforcement will be expensive and burdensome.  We are not young athletes, but elderly hobbyists with hypertension, cancer, and other chronic conditions for which we take lots of drugs.  We can get Therapeutic Use Exemptions at some expense and bother each time we change a medicine, but drug enforcement without rigorous research into each TUE is a farce.  The cost of this research would be astronomical.  We think this money could be better spent renting a lawnmower for F2 world championships. 

[Brett Buck]

An international competition inherently involves other countries.  I don't think attacking the "supra-national" aspect makes much sense.  

    I merely point to it as a very high irritation factor that is guaranteed to @#$% people off. The "world", for the most part, sucks. Why lower standard to "world" standards when in this case it is obviously inferior and wrong?  That's a flaw with the UN, as well. He's using that argument to espouse both "superiority" and the inevitability of the position.

     I am sure that this entire thing stems from the long-planned Olympics delusions of some of the participants. If you add RC Pattern to the Olympics, might as well add stock car racing and Playstation bowling.

      Brett


p.s.

3. Reliable enforcement will be expensive and burdensome.  We are not young athletes, but elderly hobbyists with hypertension, cancer, and other chronic conditions for which we take lots of drugs.  We can get Therapeutic Use Exemptions at some expense and bother each time we change a medicine, but drug enforcement without rigorous research into each TUE is a farce.  The cost of this research would be astronomical.  We think this money could be better spent renting a lawnmower for F2 world championships. 

    How this is being paid for is a very interesting point. I note that there is no shortage of money for "meetings" at a resort in Lausanne, Switzterland, and yet, as you note, they can't be bothered to mow the grass.
    

[RC Storick]

    So, effectively, the AMA is far and away the largest block of members in the FAI. However, every teeny little country in the world including places where 2 guys fly airplanes and another likes to look at magazines gets the same representation as the US. I also suspect if you look at the dues money it would be disproportionately from the US - just like the UN. And just like the UN, the process for imposing things like this is opaque, not responsive to the members, and is controlled by a tiny few, mostly non-participants.
 

Follow the money. There is a fairly simple solution to this issue. That is lobby all US clubs flyer's and contributors to the FAI to withdraw all support,participation and funding until this issue has been resolved. Its the golden rule. The guy who contributes the most gold (US) sets the rules. Now if they don't see eye to eye as was said we don't need them. We as a whole group can start our own world championships.

[Howard Rush]

Follow the money. There is a fairly simple solution to this issue. That is lobby all US clubs flyer's and contributors to the FAI to withdraw all support,participation and funding until this issue has been resolved. Its the golden rule. The guy who contributes the most gold (US) sets the rules. Now if they don't see eye to eye as was said we don't need them. We as a whole group can start our own world championships.

That's a good point.  Drug testing is the sort of thing that can be imposed on a jock who stands to make money from the sport by officials who need to defend the sport from loss of revenue from ticket sales or media coverage.  Maybe the FAI figures it can get some of this media money for its full-scale events, but I imagine that F2 money flow is in the other direction.  Just offhand, I would guess that it goes from the AMA to the NAA to the FAI, hence the AMA or NAA should put its foot down.  My international competition was funded by the AMA and the wife of the guy who builds my airplanes.  The European world championships I've attended seemed to get funding from local government and entry fees, rather than the FAI.

Ironically, the only big-money sponsor of full-scale aviation I've noticed is the maker of a performance-enhancing drug.

Again, I don't think we'll make any points by telling the rest of the world and its institutions that they suck.  We shall need to involve modelers from everywhere in refusing this nonsense from the FAI and of secession if necessary. 

[john e. holliday]

Someone mentioned coffee and it reminded me of George Carlin back in the day when I could still listen to his routines.   He had one on DRUGS and coffee was mentioned in it.   I drink too much coffee I have been told.  It relaxes me and helps me sleep at times.   Now my brother Bob would drink a cup of coffee to get woke up or be alert.  Could not even think of coffee if he wanted to sleep.  I take Tylinol for the aches I have from old age or is it ancient age.   But, if I have to take a drug test to fly in a model plane contest, I guess it will nothing but sport flying from then on.   

[Randy Powell]

>>The guy who contributes the most gold (US) sets the rules.<<

Well, that's the theory. Shame we don't exercise it much. I mean, we are floating the UN almost by ourselves and take nothing but abuse from them. If we offer an opinion, we are being dictatorial and of course we back off.

[Terry Bernard]

>>The guy who contributes the most gold (US) sets the rules.<<

Well, that's the theory. Shame we don't exercise it much. I mean, we are floating the UN almost by ourselves and take nothing but abuse from them. If we offer an opinion, we are being dictatorial and of course we back off.

Were it true that modelers contributed the most gold you may have a very minor point. But they don't. "Gold" in terms of the NAC comes in the form of FAI Sporting licenses purchased annually by people wishing to compete on a national or world stage (depending on the country) or attempt world or national records. The Parachutists, Aerobatic Pilots, Balloon Pilots and Glider Pilots purchase far more licenses than the modelling group does. For them PED's are a very real issue as they should be. The FAI had absolutely no say in this. Comply or be ostracized. The only down side to being caught taking a banned substance would be that you would be asked to leave the competition. No one at the FAI or CIAM has a clue as to what you do for a living or who you work for.   


Terry.

[Brett Buck]

Were it true that modelers contributed the most gold you may have a very minor point. But they don't. "Gold" in terms of the NAC comes in the form of FAI Sporting licenses purchased annually by people wishing to compete on a national or world stage (depending on the country) or attempt world or national records. The Parachutists, Aerobatic Pilots, Balloon Pilots and Glider Pilots purchase far more licenses than the modelling group does. For them PED's are a very real issue as they should be. The FAI had absolutely no say in this. Comply or be ostracized. The only down side to being caught taking a banned substance would be that you would be asked to leave the competition. No one at the FAI or CIAM has a clue as to what you do for a living or who you work for.   

   It's not a real issue for us, and I am quite aware that the FAI or CIAM doesn't know who we work for, as it is none of their business. But, the simple fact remains that getting a false positive and destroyed life on a drug test conducted in a foreign country is not worth it to fly in a model airplane contest. Maybe someone thinks that's OK, we do not, and, last I checked, international modeling organizations are supposed to be responding to the needs of international modelers. Getting rid of 75% of the competitors because of a  stupid olympics delusion, in a perfectly clean sport is not a service to international aeromodelling.

    And before anyone asks, I have had an FAI Sporting License on and off for something like 35 years.

    Brett

[Randy Powell]

>>The only down side to being caught taking a banned substance would be that you would be asked to leave the competition.<<

Clearly you haven't been reading this thread.

[Steve Helmick]

>>The only down side to being caught taking a banned substance would be that you would be asked to leave the competition.<<

Clearly you haven't been reading this thread.

Too true.

After paying one's way to the TT's and then paying most of one's way to the WC, and potentially having occupational problems after arriving home, it would be a serious finanacial hit for many. I don't know how much a pee test costs, but it might be a good investment to pay for a pee test on yourself before leaving for the WC, and wrap a Benjamin around the cup when taking the official test.  Steve

[Mark Scarborough]

might as well add stock car racing and Playstation bowling.

      Brett

    

Brett,
I been pullin for stock car racing in the olympics ever since that silly wrestling sport got canned,, now there should be room right?

I think Bowling is probably more popular on the Wii,,

now Gran Turismo racing on the Play Station3 thats a sport i could get into,,

[Brett Buck]

now Gran Turismo racing on the Play Station3 thats a sport i could get into,,

    Yes. I completed GT3 and GT 4 several times, and am at Level 40 in A-Spec in GT5, and have won all races except for not having finished the Nurbrugring 24-hour race.

     I think I still have some records and quite a few top 10s on Racer's Edge in GT3 and GT4. 2:35 or something like that in GT4/Le Mans (Arcade mode, old course without chicanes).

   For vision training purposes, I run GT extensively. If someone wants to cure the "yips" in stunt, don't take Phil's Propranolol stuff. Try running a Formula 1 car around the full Nurbugring course for about 20 laps. I guarantee the rest of the world will look like slow motion after that.

     Brett

[Dave_Trible]

Thanks for the update Bill.

I agree, looks like it was a money deal for some people, probably those who were doing the voting.

So, who wants to go to Poland now?

Derek

My employer too takes this stuff seriously.  I already voluntarily take 'the test' every year (supposed health screening) to get a rebate on my health insurance.  If I got a bad test out of the country I doubt they would ever know or care but if so they would send me for their own test to clear it up.  We mostly agree this is silly for what we do and it's likely some matter of prestige for someone over there to join the IOC. Even so I can't let a tinkle cup stand in the way of a life ambition.  I've already paid my team trial fees and I'll send you a Polish postcard!



Dave