Carbon Veil Binder Question

[Steve Dwyer]

I'm trying to find the best source for .2 oz/sqyd carbon veil mat. Shipping prices are crazy high. Amazon of course has free shipping on the Fiberglast .2 oz material, but its specs claim it has a binder. Has anyone used their product, will the binder cause problems?

Steve

[fred cesquim]

I'm trying to find the best source for .2 oz/sqyd carbon veil mat. Shipping prices are crazy high. Amazon of course has free shipping on the Fiberglast .2 oz material, but its specs claim it has a binder. Has anyone used their product, will the binder cause problems?

Steve

got a roll from here https://www.cstsales.com/
great product and price

[Motorman]

You don't want the binder so I've been told.

[Steve Dwyer]

CST Shipping is $25.00 for a one-yard roll, that's the price of the product. That's a bit high.

I've heard also the binder is not good, can anyone verify after using it?

Steve

[john e. holliday]

You think that is high.  You should see what it is costing me for a wood planer belt.

[Dave_Trible]

I've used veil from both sources mentioned and can't see any difference.   It all has to have a binder to hold the fibers together.   I use it both with dope on airplanes and epoxy resin on pipes.   Availability sometimes determines who I get it from.    It wouldn't surprise me if they both get it from the same manufacturer.

Dave

[doug coursey]

I have been talking to bob Hunt on using the carbon matt,heres what he told me...

Hi Doug:

I first apply two or three coats of thinned non-shrink nitrate dope to the airframe. Then I apply the .02 carbo mat using extremely thinned nitrate dope (at least 80% thinned). The tinned dope will go through the mat and soften the undercoats enough to "grip" the mat firmly. If you don't use adequately thinned dope, the mat will "pucker" in spots. I then apply a coat of 60% or so thinned dope (always the non-tautening nitrate..) and sand lightly when cured. Repeat this process until there is a "patina" on the surface. Then proceed with your normal dope finish. Note: You can apply butyrate dope over nitrate, but not the other way around.

Hope this helps - Bob

I apply it dry and let the very thinned dope penetrate and wet the material. Be sure to carbon the wing from end to end before installing it in the fuselage. Bob Gieseke installed the wing in the fuselage of one of his models and then applied the carbon. The wing broke at the fuselage side! It forms a stress riser...

Later - Bob

[Steve Dwyer]

From what I've read the Fiberglast .2 carbon veil mat has an acrylic resin applied to act as a binder. I did not contact Fiberglast to find how they apply the binder, if there's any known incompatibilities or if its spray applied and ironed on?? I did find in the product section one review from an RC model builder where he has applied it using Nitrate followed with Butyrate with no complaints and excellent results. I guess I'll place an order with Amazon, pay a bit more per yard but enjoy the free shipping.
Steve

[Dave_Trible]

That sounds like they use hair spray.   That would be about right.

Dave

[Steve Dwyer]

According to google that would be Polyvinyl Acetate with alcohol......

I've placed the order, so we'll see.

[Steve Dwyer]

Bob, you probably covered in an earlier post what you replaced if anything the carbon mat for your finished models. If you don't mind, can you please elaborate.

I didn't see anything where Fiberglast is using starch for the binder. Hopefully their mat with the resin binder will not cause the pinholes you described. I read also someone mixed talk into the nitrate to fill any imperfections.

Thanks,

Steve

[Matt Colan]

I used to get my carbon veil from aerospace composites. It was amazing!! It would wrap around curves, could patch areas easily, and was just an amazing product and so easy to work with. I’m currently in the middle of covering a customer’s airplane with carbon veil from cst.com and it’s awful! It doesn’t want to wrap around curves, is much more difficult to stick and work with. After I finish covering the stab and wing next week I’ll be using finishing resin for the rest of the airplane. It’s damn near impossible to work with.

I do think the veil from the cst site would work well used with resin, composites and vacuum bagging stuff, but doping it on like I have for so many years in the past is just not possible in my experience

[Motorman]

Might be a way to remove the sizing and soften it? Isn't Polyvinyl Acetate some kind of wood glue? Have you tried wetting it with water and tamping with paper towl?

MM

[fred cesquim]

CST Shipping is $25.00 for a one-yard roll, that's the price of the product. That's a bit high.

I've heard also the binder is not good, can anyone verify after using it?

Steve

i have used on my hellcat (now deceased). no problem at all ( crash was operator mistake  )
expensive shipping but i bought a big roll to compensate...

[Steve Dwyer]

I read somewhere that an alternate (probably earlier) method instead of using silk span or carbon mat was to use multiple coats of clear dope with a final coat mixed talc and a bit of black to help see any imperfections or grain voids following light sanding. If the carbon mat I ordered from Fiberglast has an undesirable binder causing the problems mentioned here I'm looking for an alternate method for finishing the hard surfaces. A lightweight method of course. BTW I did use some .2 oz carbon mat I picked at a swap meet not knowing the brand and it worked out perfectly on the flaps of my Pathfinder Twin. Such a mystery.
Steve

[Dave_Trible]

I read somewhere that an alternate (probably earlier) method instead of using silk span or carbon mat was to use multiple coats of clear dope with a final coat mixed talc and a bit of black to help see any imperfections or grain voids following light sanding. If the carbon mat I ordered from Fiberglast has an undesirable binder causing the problems mentioned here I'm looking for an alternate method for finishing the hard surfaces. A lightweight method of course. BTW I did use some .2 oz carbon mat I picked at a swap meet not knowing the brand and it worked out perfectly on the flaps of my Pathfinder Twin. Such a mystery.
Steve

This was close to the FIRST method used to finish airplanes.   Works well except builds a lot of weight.   I use the carbon filled with dope to stiffen certain areas of the airplane,  these days mostly just the fuselage.   I have a newer method to fill wood grain which weighs nearly nothing.  The super light weight spackle you buy at any hardware store (Dap usually) is worthless for just about anything we do EXCEPT is perfect to simply fill wood grain.   I usually apply one thinned clear coat of dope then sand off the fuzz.   Then I scrape on a layer of this spackle over the whole airplane with an old credit card or similar .  When dry I sand almost all of it off.  What is left is a filled surface ready for dope and ZERO measurable weight gain.   Usually a couple clear coats followed by wet sanding with 600 wet and it’s ready for color.   Bad spot I hit with Kombi putty and re-shoot color.   This method has saved me as much as four to five ounces of finish weight over other stuff.  It is made from vinyl so never shrinks or ‘sucks in’ to the wood.

Dave

[Doug Moon]

SS overlaps are the worst. Otherwise its way easier to use than Carbon Veil. I will not use veil anymore. It's a giant pain in the ass and takes forever to get a good surface plus the dust is not good.

I use ployspan on the wings and tail. No issues there. On the fuse I use SS. If I cut the pieces with scissors and then overlap it will show up sooner or later. If I tear it by pulling it apart it leaves a non-uniform edge that feathers very easy. I have been doing that for a while and that seems to work. I use 00 SS on the fuse since those areas are solid.

[Lauri Malila]

Have you tried burning off the sizing? It kind of flashes off quickly, leaving the fibers much softer. and the temperature shouldn’t affect the fibers much.
Maybe close the dope jar first.🙄
L

[Doug Moon]

This was close to the FIRST method used to finish airplanes.   Works well except builds a lot of weight.   I use the carbon filled with dope to stiffen certain areas of the airplane,  these days mostly just the fuselage.   I have a newer method to fill wood grain which weighs nearly nothing.  The super light weight spackle you buy at any hardware store (Dap usually) is worthless for just about anything we do EXCEPT is perfect to simply fill wood grain.   I usually apply one thinned clear coat of dope then sand off the fuzz.   Then I scrape on a layer of this spackle over the whole airplane with an old credit card or similar .  When dry I sand almost all of it off.  What is left is a filled surface ready for dope and ZERO measurable weight gain.   Usually a couple clear coats followed by wet sanding with 600 wet and it’s ready for color.   Bad spot I hit with Kombi putty and re-shoot color.   This method has saved me as much as four to five ounces of finish weight over other stuff.  It is made from vinyl so never shrinks or ‘sucks in’ to the wood.

Dave

Dave,
I am finding that the light weight DAP has a very weird texture and hardly sticks to anything and sands like ass. I used to use it and it was awesome. One little tub lasts forever. I bought some new stuff recently and it's terrible. Can you tell us which one you are buying?

[Doug Moon]

Have you tried burning off the sizing? It kind of flashes off quickly, leaving the fibers much softer. and the temperature shouldn’t affect the fibers much.
Maybe close the dope jar first.🙄
L

Iron it? When I used veil I would iron it before applying and it would make it go on so smooth. But now the newer stuff I have tried is awful.

[Dave_Trible]

Dave,
I am finding that the light weight DAP has a very weird texture and hardly sticks to anything and sands like ass. I used to use it and it was awesome. One little tub lasts forever. I bought some new stuff recently and it's terrible. Can you tell us which one you are buying?

Doug this is what I used last on the F8.  Worked fine. I have found it will clog up the sandpaper if you simply stroke it back and forth.   I do better to stroke it one direction then lift the block and go back to where I started (make sense?)  You have to sort of get rid of what was sanded off and not let it ball up underneath the sanding block.

[Lauri Malila]

Iron it?

No, proper fire

[Doug Moon]

Doug this is what I used last on the F8.  Worked fine. I have found it will clog up the sandpaper if you simply stroke it back and forth.   I do better to stroke it one direction then lift the block and go back to where I started (make sense?)  You have to sort of get rid of what was sanded off and not let it ball up underneath the sanding block.

Thank you!

[Dave_Trible]

No, proper fire

Lauri you live dangerously....

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

This was close to the FIRST method used to finish airplanes.   Works well except builds a lot of weight.   I use the carbon filled with dope to stiffen certain areas of the airplane,  these days mostly just the fuselage.   I have a newer method to fill wood grain which weighs nearly nothing.  The super light weight spackle you buy at any hardware store (Dap usually) is worthless for just about anything we do EXCEPT is perfect to simply fill wood grain.   I usually apply one thinned clear coat of dope then sand off the fuzz.   Then I scrape on a layer of this spackle over the whole airplane with an old credit card or similar .  When dry I sand almost all of it off.  What is left is a filled surface ready for dope and ZERO measurable weight gain.   Usually a couple clear coats followed by wet sanding with 600 wet and it’s ready for color.   Bad spot I hit with Kombi putty and re-shoot color.   This method has saved me as much as four to five ounces of finish weight over other stuff.  It is made from vinyl so never shrinks or ‘sucks in’ to the wood.

Dave

   If you look up the article that Allen Brickhaus wrote for a profile model converted from an R/C fun fly kit of the "Beguine" Mustang post war air racer, he details his finishing process for painted fuselages and iron on coverings for the wings. It's pretty much the same, only he would thin the spackling material and brush it on like paint and then block sand it off to fill wood grain and hide it. Then follow up with coats of thinned finish cure epoxy block sanded smooth in between coats. The key here is to apply the epoxy carefully and scrape most of it off, then careful sanding after it cures. When satisfied you could prime and paint with rattle can paints. That is where the Rustoleum finishes first originated. You could alter this and continue after the spackling treatment with coats of dope and tissue, and they spray what ever finish you want on top of that. Allen mentioned his finishing method in most of the construction articles he published but he only detailed it in a couple of them, and the "Beguine" was one of them. Like any method of finishing, how it comes out is determined by how much attention to details and effort you put into it.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Dan McEntee]

No, proper fire

   If done with some thought and care, I can see this working. Practice with a small  sheet or sample. Take it outside in some shady area so you can see the flame. Stretch it out and raise it about what ever surface you are working on with blocks and weights at the corners. Pull it as tight as you can. Take a propane torch with a low flame and wave it over the surface at a shallow angle and watch for the flash. The flash and any heat generated will go up away from the sheet. Turn it over and do the other side. I'm gonna guess there will still be some but less on the second side. I can see that this may work and not a lot of effort needed.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Lauri Malila]

   If done with some thought and care, I can see this working. Practice with a small  sheet or sample. Take it outside in some shady area so you can see the flame. Stretch it out and raise it about what ever surface you are working on with blocks and weights at the corners. Pull it as tight as you can. Take a propane torch with a low flame and wave it over the surface at a shallow angle and watch for the flash. The flash and any heat generated will go up away from the sheet. Turn it over and do the other side. I'm gonna guess there will still be some but less on the second side. I can see that this may work and not a lot of effort needed.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

Why that complex? Just hold the piece with your fingers and light it with a match. At least the test piece I made burned so quickly, like the magicians paper, that it had no time to heat anything too much to cause danger. I also wouldn't stretch it as once burned, it has hardly any strength left, so it would fall apart.
I don't use carbon veil because I think it's useless, but I would imagine that when done that way, at least smaller pieces can go nicely over complex curved surfaces. L

[Steve Dwyer]

The order I placed for the Fiberglast .2 oz carbon veil arrived this weekend. As it turned out I found the shipping box the roll I bought at a swap meet some time back came with. This material was .2 oz from Aerospace Composites. I had used it on the Imitation flaps and part of the fuselage with good results. I compared the two materials by feel and appearance and have to conclude they look like they were made by the same source. Both have a binder giving a sheen. I plan to do a comparison test for adherence, wrap and fill. BTW I did try some of the Brodak .2 CF years back and had trouble with it balling up when brushed.
More to come.