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Author Topic: Carbon bellcranks  (Read 21116 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2014, 08:01:35 PM »
By definition, if you've had to do something similar and had installed a significantly self-centering bellcrank it now will self center at something other than the bench trimmed set-up and could be attempting to make flat exits from corners more difficult.  I believe that is at least one reason that Brett states he doesn't advocate or use self-centering features in his control systems.

That problem comes of having at least one hard-mounted bellcrank to control surface link.  If everything is adjustable (which I'm pretty sure Paul Walker's planes are -- I know his flaps are individually adjustable, and with a take-apart tail it'd be hard not to make the elevator separately adjustable), then you could have the control surfaces biased any way you wanted to with respect to the bellcrank.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2014, 06:22:11 PM »
By definition, if you've had to do something similar and had installed a significantly self-centering bellcrank it now will self center at something other than the bench trimmed set-up and could be attempting to make flat exits from corners more difficult.  I believe that is at least one reason that Brett states he doesn't advocate or use self-centering features in his control systems.

    One reason to be sure. Until you decide to make the flap pushrod adjustable, you can get stuck having to apply constant pressure in one direction or the other just to fly level and fighting it in the maneuvers.

   The other issue is of course control effort. If it self-centers, that adds to the control effort required, and even worse, it changes with airspeed. More line tension leads to more self-centering effort that must be overcome. So it varies around.

    This sort of stuff is far more important that exquisitely-crafted arguments over the airfoil shape and tail moment, and the usual design "numbers" that people hold to be magical guarantees of success.

     Brett

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2014, 06:36:04 PM »
Doesn't leadout position change the geometry slightly?

What is your opinion of reverse action bellcranks?
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2014, 06:43:11 PM »
Doesn't leadout position change the geometry slightly?

What is your opinion of reverse action bellcranks?

  Changing the leadout position certainly does change it, slightly. Given that for the first 50 years, we did Case 4 all the time without thinking about it, having it "off" a bit is not fatal. This is why you need to figure out your CG and nominal leadout position (using LineII or LineIII, or hand-calculating it) when you draw the airplane, and build in the correct nominal arrangement. Then tweak from there. The good thing is that if you build everything straight, and trim it correctly, there's not much range of variability in the trim settings anyway.

    "Reverse action"? I don't know what you mean on that one.
     Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2014, 12:14:23 AM »
  Changing the leadout position certainly does change it, slightly. Given that for the first 50 years, we did Case 4 all the time without thinking about it, having it "off" a bit is not fatal. This is why you need to figure out your CG and nominal leadout position (using LineII or LineIII, or hand-calculating it) when you draw the airplane, and build in the correct nominal arrangement. Then tweak from there. The good thing is that if you build everything straight, and trim it correctly, there's not much range of variability in the trim settings anyway.

    "Reverse action"? I don't know what you mean on that one.
     Brett

Front up line????

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2014, 12:19:39 AM »
Front up line????


Yes, that's it.  I thought that is what it was called.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2014, 12:56:48 AM »
Yes, that's it.  I thought that is what it was called.

    I don't think it makes much difference, but it does tend put the leadouts and pushrod in a good spot to interfere with each other, particularly if you tilt the bellcrank to reduce the geometric funnies with the flap horn. Putting aside the 30-year argument on which way the torque goes in a corner (nose in or nose out, you pick the turn), you can't rely on nor to you want to try to put additional yaw force into the lines. All it does is get the lines whipping more than they have to. You can see the effect even in Tim Wescott's gyro data. So even if you could figure out which line should be up, it's not going to help you very much.

     Brett


   

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2020, 03:39:12 PM »
I've been thinking about this for six years since Brett's last post.  I always thought "self-centering" bellcranks were silly, but now I'm getting interested in them for a weird reason I'm still working on.  Could be another six years before I figure it out. 

First, Brett's right about straight bellcranks (his figure 2 above) being destabilizing.    I did some ciphering for a 4" bellcrank (2" radius from the pivot to the leadout attach points) 30" from the leadout guide at the wingtip.   I assumed both leadouts exit the wing at the same point.  The first picture below is the upchuck. For the "self-centering" cases, the moment arm of the bellcrank arm closer to the inside wingtip (the arm being pulled) is less than that of the other bellcrank arm, so it takes more force to pull.  The straight bellcrank, 0 on the first picture, is the opposite, so it's self-decentering.  That's what I use, so I guess I should move my CG aft to stabilize my airplane (reference to a recent inane Stunthangar thread).  Brett's bellcrank (his figure 1 above) is the 3.8 line on the first picture.  For the numbers I used for the calculation, his bellcrank arm angle works out to 3.8 degrees.  The moment arms aren't the same at big bellcrank deflections, but they are for small deflections and the slope of the curve is zero near zero deflection.  As mentioned above, if there's much of a slope in the curve, moving the leadouts at the tip will put a torque on the control handle in level flight.  With my straight bellcrank, if I move both leadouts 1/4" at the tip, I would need to move both attach points at my handle up or down .003044 inch.  That's with a 5.5" handle spacing.  Most people would need to move them less.  Brett wouldn't have to move them at all. Despite that absurdity, I think that we should be offsetting the bellcrank arms toward the center of the flying circle at least as much as Brett does. I'll see if I can rework my control geometry program for "self-centering" bellcranks, probably making Brett's case the default.

The second picture maybe looks at the same thing a different way.  When a "self-centering" bellcrank is deflected, it pulls the leadouts into the wing a little, thus reducing the distance from the airplane to the pilot.  The plot shows the total length of both leadouts inside the wing relative to that for zero bellcrank deflection.  I don't know what to make of this. 

I calculated all these cases assuming that the bellcrank at neutral was perpendicular to a line from the bellcrank pivot to the leadout exit point at the wingtip.  I always try to do that on my airplanes.  Just for fun, I compared this case on my current plane to Brett's figure 4: bellcrank aligned with the fuselage axis.  I used my control geometry program, which assumes a straight bellcrank (pictures 3 and 4 below). Curiously, it doesn't make much difference.  Other stuff about the plots I should mention: 1) elevator is down about 4.5 degrees when the flaps are zero (Impacts are like that), 2) flaps look funny because the airplane has Igor's Logarithmic Device (ILD), and 3) I added a cubic trendline through the elevator deflection so it would have the same mathematical sophistication as government Covid-19 case extrapolation. 

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2020, 05:11:54 PM »
Are you familiar with the 4" SIG bellcrank? That's self-centering...or not self-centering (unstable), depending on which side the pushrod lever is pointing.  H^^  Steve
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2020, 03:30:43 PM »
I made bellcrank from 6061 barstock aluminum with hammer and chisel. 1/8in thick, web thickness is .020 in (.5 mm) Line spacing 100 mm, shoulder 24 mm or 21 mm. Weight is 9 grams. One without web is 8 gram.

Jerry
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2020, 04:48:14 PM »
All science of geometry and positioning of bellcrank, leadouts and control handle will work perfect in case of the lines to be solid and straight  like an arrow.

Jerry
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 07:58:12 AM by jerry v »
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2020, 08:08:05 PM »
All science of geometry and positioning of bellcrank, leadouts and control handle will work perfect in case of the lines to be solid and strait like an arrow.

    ???

   Brett

Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2020, 09:46:11 AM »
Brett,
All of configurations of common triangular bellcrank can be replaced with a wheel style bellcrank like in racing models F2C. Pivot point can be anywhere in the trailing end of the wing, the control rod from bellcrank connected to the pivoting lever in the middle distance between flap/elevator hinge line, connecting rod from middle lever back to flaps to have better geometry and more equal movement of flaps. One more control rod from midpoint lever to elevator. Leadouts at the wingtip can be in tubes/guides 1/8 in apart or even in one hole to have better geometry for science and accuracy of performance. Couplers for lines located inside of the wing, it’s popular now to make take apart model. The difference  in the line length after adjusting the leadouts position can be easy adjusted at the handle.
What will be the complaint? Extra one or two ounces weight of vital components for the controls precision?

Jerry
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Offline John Miller

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2020, 12:01:18 PM »
Jerry, an interesting concept. It's been used on occasion here in the states. I personally used it to set up the controls for a Shieks Classic Stagger Wing Stunter as it was the best way to arrange the controls in that particular Biplane. I did not use a circular Bell Crank though.

The drawbacks do indeed include added weight, in the tail. This may help with a nose-heavy airplane. It also may be a bit more complex, and can, depending on the distances and angles used or necessitated,  still present some inaccuracies.

Compare the geometrically adjusted control horns. One short pushrod from the bellcrank to the corrected flap horn. One longer pushrod from the flap horn to the elevator horn, saving weight from the longer pushrod used on the system you describe.

The main change the corrected system uses is what is commonly called the "Hockey Stick" flap horn. It's simple to layout the geometry for this horn from the plans, a drawing, or in Howard's case, an excel sheet. My own testing shows that for many cases, the horn only needs to lean forward 9 degrees to be useful. Since the distance and angles between the flap horn and elevator horn do not introduce a major differential, the elevator horn can stay at 90 degrees and be accurate enough.

There were some, oldtimers "back in the day" who ran the pushrod from the bellcrank to the elevator horn, and then another pushrod from the elevator horn forward to the flap horn. Because of, once again, distance and angle relationships, created rather accurate relatrionships between bellcrank, flaps, and elevators.
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2020, 12:30:54 PM »
There were some, oldtimers "back in the day" who ran the pushrod from the bellcrank to the elevator horn, and then another pushrod from the elevator horn forward to the flap horn. Because of, once again, distance and angle relationships, created rather accurate relatrionships between bellcrank, flaps, and elevators.

I tried this on something relatively small, because Larry Renger did it on a 1/2a stunt plane. A little flapped clown I think... his looked really cool, and he does very well in leprechaun stunt with it (and other planes)

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2020, 03:52:18 PM »
You can get a perfectly (almost) linear relationship between leadout travel and control surface deflection with a regular bellcrank and either a straight-up or bent-forward control horn.  It's a 3D problem.   
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2020, 05:08:58 PM »
I made my belcrank only for myself, and I’m using it in conventional way: belcrank linkage to flaps and from flaps to elevator.

Whatever I said earlier was just to prove that there are better ways to improve smoothness, accuracy and reliability of control system of stunt ship. It’s sometimes more complicated to make. 

Jerry

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Offline John Leidle

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2020, 06:32:02 PM »
  Jerry,
  Thanks for posting,, that one is a beauty  also nice to see a few hammer & file men left on the planet.
  John L.

Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2020, 07:09:34 PM »
John,
Wait until I will polish it in the best traditions of stunt pilots! :-*

Oops! It's inside of the wing already)) :'(

 Jerry
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2020, 08:42:24 PM »
To continue the science talk ...
I think it’s possible to make wheel belcrank in the middle of the fuselage ( mid-distance between hingelines of flaps and stub). 4 in diameter wheel will be positioned vertically (pivot pin parallel to hinge lines) Control lines will enter from the wingtip and go to separate pulleys at the typical location of bellcrank. Then each line will turn 90 degrees and go to  the wheel belcrank. Each pulley shaft tilted to make cable alignment with leadout points and top and bottom of the wheel. Here is the best part . On the same shaft with wheel belcrank are located two more wheels to do pull-pull to the two more wheels- one at the flaps, one at the elevator. Why it is interesting? Because pull-pull wheels can be made elliptical to have exponential function. Ellipse has same circumference length as circle, so there will be always the same tension in pull-pul. It can be made in any combination - wheel to ellipse , ellipse to ellipse, to achieve the best result in flap to elevator ratio and exponential from bellcrank to elevator and flap. ( Less  sensitive are neutral ).

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2020, 11:53:03 PM »
To continue the science talk ...
I think it’s possible to make wheel belcrank in the middle of the fuselage ( mid-distance between hingelines of flaps and stub). 4 in diameter wheel will be positioned vertically (pivot pin parallel to hinge lines) Control lines will enter from the wingtip and go to separate pulleys at the typical location of bellcrank. Then each line will turn 90 degrees and go to  the wheel belcrank. Each pulley shaft tilted to make cable alignment with leadout points and top and bottom of the wheel. Here is the best part . On the same shaft with wheel belcrank are located two more wheels to do pull-pull to the two more wheels- one at the flaps, one at the elevator. Why it is interesting? Because pull-pull wheels can be made elliptical to have exponential function. Ellipse has same circumference length as circle, so there will be always the same tension in pull-pul. It can be made in any combination - wheel to ellipse , ellipse to ellipse, to achieve the best result in flap to elevator ratio and exponential from bellcrank to elevator and flap. ( Less  sensitive are neutral ).


   The topic of circular and other elliptical shapes, and "pull-pull" systems has been discussed several times over the years.  An interesting feature of the circular bellcrank is that when used with a conventional control handle, it's "reverse-exponential", that is, it the angle at the handle rotates it faster around neutral than at higher deflections. A straight crank can be either forward or reverse-"exponential", depending on the relative size of the handle and bellcrank.

    Brett

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2020, 12:05:26 AM »
To continue the science talk ...
I think it’s possible to make wheel belcrank in the middle of the fuselage ( mid-distance between hingelines of flaps and stub). 4 in diameter wheel will be positioned vertically (pivot pin parallel to hinge lines) Control lines will enter from the wingtip and go to separate pulleys at the typical location of bellcrank. Then each line will turn 90 degrees and go to  the wheel belcrank. Each pulley shaft tilted to make cable alignment with leadout points and top and bottom of the wheel. Here is the best part . On the same shaft with wheel belcrank are located two more wheels to do pull-pull to the two more wheels- one at the flaps, one at the elevator. Why it is interesting? Because pull-pull wheels can be made elliptical to have exponential function. Ellipse has same circumference length as circle, so there will be always the same tension in pull-pul. It can be made in any combination - wheel to ellipse , ellipse to ellipse, to achieve the best result in flap to elevator ratio and exponential from bellcrank to elevator and flap. ( Less  sensitive are neutral ).

Jerry

Cool.  Even better is if you can fit different wheels to try different functions.  Keep us informed. 

Good thing you are proficient with that chisel. 
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2020, 06:05:57 AM »
I didn’t claim to be the wheel inventor !))
And life is too short to read all thousands pages of this forum reading material))
But I think it’s manageable to build concept model with elliptical and circular control components from the plywood  , plastic or carbon sheet layers. All of components can be made in mold, and now we finally got to the topic of this particular post!

Jerry
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Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2020, 09:10:27 PM »
   The topic of circular and other elliptical shapes, and "pull-pull" systems has been discussed several times over the years.  An interesting feature of the circular bellcrank is that when used with a conventional control handle, it's "reverse-exponential", that is, it the angle at the handle rotates it faster around neutral than at higher deflections. A straight crank can be either forward or reverse-"exponential", depending on the relative size of the handle and bellcrank.

    Brett
Brett,
If, for example, straight handle line spacing  is 4 in, and straight bellcrank line spacing is 3 in. It’s a linear ratio 4:3
If handle is moved 30 degrees, then belcrank linearly will move 40 degrees.
Exponential movement is not linear. It’s a curve.

Jerry
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2020, 09:45:57 PM »
Brett,
If, for example, straight handle line spacing  is 4 in, and straight bellcrank line spacing is 3 in. It’s a linear ratio 4:3
If handle is moved 30 degrees, then belcrank linearly will move 40 degrees.
Exponential movement is not linear. It’s a curve.

Jerry

   Right around zero, yes, but you are not considering sine and cosine effects.

     Brett

Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2020, 07:57:01 AM »
   Right around zero, yes, but you are not considering sine and cosine effects.

     Brett
Linear movement around neutral can be replaced by exponential movement by adding the ellipse to the control system.

Jerry
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2020, 02:12:47 PM »
Linear movement around neutral can be replaced by exponential movement by adding the ellipse to the control system.

Jerry

  It's not really linear around zero, either, it's just very close, so you can adjust how fast it moves the elevator to put you anywhere in the sine/cosine effect, within reason. The "within reason" part is a limiting factor, because while you can pretty easily make the bellcrank angle to handle angle do what you want, similar effects are happening with the other connections at the same time.

    What sort of response you want is another endless debate. I am pretty convinced that I don't want it soft around neutral, actually, I want the opposite, so that's why it is  a never-ending argument.

    Brett

   

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2020, 02:17:42 PM »
We will never fully understand the bellcrank or the venturi.

    Both are plenty well-enough understood in terms of physics or geometry. The problem is that no one can actually agree what the desired outcome might be. This defeats almost all attempts at model airplanes as an engineering endeavor, and if you can't accept that, it can be very frustrating. There are no "figures of merit" that would allow you to tell which parameters to optimize.

   And besides, go look at the list of NATs winners, for the most part, the answer to almost any question as to who is closest to right can be found there. Scoreboards tell you *exactly* what you need to know about any stunt topic. People find that very hard to accept.

     Brett

Offline John Miller

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2020, 02:45:28 PM »
Yes, using a properly oriented mild elliptical-shaped bellcrank would deliver a softer neutral, much like certain styles of devices in vouge today. Two large questions come readily to mind concerning such devices.

The circular bellcrank has been used in the past, most notably by Ted Fancher in the '70s. For several reasons, he, and others, stopped using them. They added a bit of complexity and concern should the cable jump from the groove. At best, they were very linear as long as the handle and bell crank spacing was the same. You mentioned the ratios that occur when the spacings differ. The exponential systems, as well as your suggested elliptical bellcrank will deliver some form of differential movement near neutral. The question in my mind is, why is that desired? What are we really trying to cure with soft neutral systems? The elliptical bell crank was considered and rejected by myself and others, back in the 80s. for most of the same reasons the circular bellcrank was dropped earlier.

Modern control systems start with the handle. For competition use, it should be adjustable, and lately, solid point attachment rather than flexible, adjustable cable, has become the favored style. The handle should be lightweight so you barely feel it in your hand. Heavy handles can make a poor showing as they will slow down your responses. The lines must be sized to prevent the stretchy soft feeling that can cause problems. Line length is used to set and maintain lap time, along with the throttle whether IC or E.  Next comes the bell crank itself. As discussed it can be where some real help begins in our desire for help and better patterns.

First, let me address the thoughts of mounting the bell crank aft of the wing and routing the lead-outs through some form of pulleys to make the turn in direction. Way back in the early days of control lining, a similar system was produced to get around Jim Walker's patent for the bell crank. At the time, a royalty had to be paid to Walker when his (?) bellcrank was used in a kit, or even on a drawing. A side note: Many old plans do not show a  bell crank. Where one would be there was text to the equivalent, "Use your favorite control here." Back to the aft of the wing discussion.

The design in question routed the lead-outs through pulleys, tubes created too much drag, making a 90-degree turn and then attaching to horns mounted top and bottom of the elevator thus eliminating the bell crank completely. It apparently didn't work well as it's the only one I've ever seen that used this workaround. Imagine what would happen if the lead-outs, either singly or both, jumped from the pully.

For modern PA, the use and understanding regarding longer 4-inch bell crank over the then standard 3-inch lengths was a turning point of some significance. The reasons for and use of "Corrected geometry" control horns were known as far back as the 50s. Knowledge of them was held in secret by most of those who were aware of them. I've come across at least one old set, of plans, drawn by one o0f the early greats, that clearly show such corrected horns from the 50s. Back in the day, it was common to keep some elements of design secret from general knowledge. ("Detroit Stunter" comes to mind.) Getting rid of the small dia. (1/8") flexible pushrods in favor of larger dia. dowels, and later, CF tubing along with the use of adjustable ball links helped make our control systems more "bulletproof".

Add to the list, adjustable lead-outs, tip weight boxes, openings in the tail to allow adjustable elevators neutral and throw, neutral stable, and unstable bellcranks. All developments to tune our control systems.

We've come a long way since it all began.

The questions at this time, at least for me, is. What are we attempting to achieve when making it slower around neutral? I  have some ideas, but I would like the opinions of others before offering them.





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Offline jerry v

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2020, 12:34:44 PM »
John,
My reply #63 and #70 describes my opinion on my model.
My reply #66 was to answer on reply #54.
If you have solid balsa thin wing for racer or for speed model , then circular ( or wheel) belcrank is the best option. Circular belcrank is always neutral ( not stable, not unstable) because lines are always tangent to circle no matter where leadouts positioned. Of course if you make circle center as pivot point. If you move pivot point away from center, then wheel belcrank become eccentrical, and can be stable or unstable. Typically wheel belcrank is sitting in the “cup” with guiding openings for lines exits and clearance between wall of cup and the wheel is less than cable diameter to prevent cable from failure.
If exit leadouts spacing is the same distance as belcrank line spacing - then straight belcrank ( line holes and pivot hole are in line) become neutral. It was common in old models with small bellcrank.

John, to answer your question about soft neutral at control handle - it’s everybody’s own preference. Main reason- to have better level flight. It’s more difficult to perform at much higher speeds than 50 mph of stunt level flight. In CL speed all bellcranks are stable or very stable, and response of model is “retardered” like in helicopter swash plate , ))because of small elevator.
Exponential movement is optional . Some pilots prefer precision  movement of their own hands and fingers to always be at control. Some 3D pilots have soft ( less sensitive movement )in the end of maximum travel just to have better control precision at crazy moments))

Jerry
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2020, 02:25:59 PM »
Both are plenty well-enough understood in terms of physics or geometry.

Control system geometry is understood. although what some folks understand is not true.  Control system physics is less understood, despite efforts by Bill Netzeband, yourself, and others to explain it.

The problem is that no one can actually agree what the desired outcome might be.

Not surprising, given that folks (I'll be generous and assume that agreement takes more than one person) can agree on neither the geometry nor the physics.

This defeats almost all attempts at model airplanes as an engineering endeavor, and if you can't accept that, it can be very frustrating.

I can't accept that. 

There are no "figures of merit" that would allow you to tell which parameters to optimize.

I'm working on them.

And besides, go look at the list of NATs winners...

I'd include a another contest series, too.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline AMV

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Re: Carbon bellcranks
« Reply #81 on: May 29, 2020, 08:03:21 PM »
I made bellcrank from 6061 barstock aluminum with hammer and chisel. 1/8in thick, web thickness is .020 in (.5 mm) Line spacing 100 mm, shoulder 24 mm or 21 mm. Weight is 9 grams. One without web is 8 gram.

Jerry

That's a very precise chisel.
Spice is the variety of life.


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