Exact wording in the rules?

[RC Storick]

Does anyone know the exact wording in the rule book about AMA Numbers? I don't think I have to have it on the wing if its on the tail in 1 inch numbers.

[Alan Hahn]

Rather than relying on my faulty memory, I would meander over to the AMA site and take a look at the rule book, in particular the PA section, because as I recall they have more specific requirements than the simple AMA regulations (that your name and number must be somewhere in or on the plane) or the general CL rules.

[RC Storick]

All I can find is I will not fly my model aircraft with out my AMA number afixed to the inside or out side of the plane. I know thats not right.

[Crist Rigotti]

Bob,
See section 2.3 of the CLPA section of the current Competition Regulations.

[RC Storick]

Found it thanks. I do not have to have it on the wing. It says one inch numbers on the fuselage or vertical stabilizer. I take the to mean I can have it only on the rudder.

[Jim Oliver]

Sparky,

I have used the numbers only, oriented vertically on the vertical stab. of RC pattern models without complaint from several CD's.

I plan to use the numbers only, oriented horizontally on a Mil-Spec (Navy style) Pathfinder.  Either on the fuse or the vertical stab, whichever looks "right".

Jim

[Allen Brickhaus]

Mine is easier to fit on the rudder as it has only three digits.  Your numbers may be placed on the vertical rudder (vertical order is OK) or on the sides of the model.  This gives a more scale look while not putting the numbers on the upper right wing.  I found one person on the contest trail at two different contests with 3/4" high numbers on his upper right wing.  I have advised him and he will be getting it corrected soon.  Windy got in trouble for this at the Fentress Nats in 1988.

Allen Brickhaus

[Bill Little]

On my semi scale stunters (US fighter planes) I use my AMA number in place of the A/C serial number which is with in the rules as stated in the rule book. 1" high (or more).

Bill <><

[Clancy Arnold]

Sparky
The AMA requirement that your name and AMA number must be on or in the model is in the AMA General Information for all categories on the last page of that section under General para. 4.  Identification.  All models, except indoor, will be identified with the owner's name and address and AMA number, on or in the model.  individual events listed within this (Competition Regulations) may have additional identification requirements which must be adhered to.

C/L Precision Aerobatics Para. 2.3.  All models shall be identified by the conteatant's AMA license number Permanently  affixed to the upper side of the right-hand lifting surface or to each side of the fuselage or vertical stabilizer.  The height of numerals shall be at least one (1) inch (25.4 mm).  Both stroke and width shall be such to enable ready recognition.  It is suggested that the letters USA (25.4 mm[1 inch] or higher) be placed at least once on the model.

This may also be an insurance requirement that our model is identified.

I usually put it on a bulkhead inside a wheel well on my scale models.

Clancy

[bill marvel]

At the Nats this year, someone was talking about a flier who put his AMA numbers on the wing of his military airplane in 1" block.  But, he painted the numbers in silver (aluminum) barely darker than the finish of the airplane.  The numbers were nearly invisible.

Unfortunately, the same rule Chris Rigotti quoted says "both stroke and width shall be such TO ENABLE READY RECOGNITION (my emphasis).

Funny what people will try!!!

regards
bill marvel

[Jim Thomerson]

I don't think the rule says anything specific about contrast.  However, I would agree that one should be able to read the numbers.

[Alan Hahn]

I don't know this as fact, but I asume the CLPA requirement is to make sure that the owner of the plane is the pilot (in a contest)--otherwise why care?. (Note how I skipped over the BOM issue!  .The general AMA requirement is for liability and insurance issues (like you put the plane into someone's window).

[Leroy Heikes]

On one of my Profile scale models for the AMA requirement for Name and AMA number, I placed them inside the wing before I covered it. The rule only states that it needs to be on or in the model.

Leroy

[john e. holliday]

You forget also that it says readily available or able to see such.  Now you want to cut your covering when I ask to see your AMA Number?   One of my flying partners put his on the inside of the ply doubler before gluing it on.  When I asked to see his number then he put it on the wing.  DOC Holliday

[Randy Powell]

Pat Johnston, who, as it turns out, builds quite a few semi-scale planes, put it on the wing, but in tall, thin letters that tend to blend into the inklines. It's there, but you have to look for it.

[Jim Thomerson]

There are two different rules here. General Paragraph 4 says all but indoor models must have the OWNER'S  name and address or AMA number in or on the model. ( I think what we are talking here is insurance responsability, maybe?)

Control Line Precision Aerobatics rule 2.3 says the CONTESTANT'S  AMA number  . . .

How about that?

[wwwarbird]

Sparky,

 I'm pretty sure you're OK running it across the fin and rudder like the original serial number would have been on the '47 as long as they are 1" or bigger. Good thinking on the placement by the way.

Warbirds Rule!

[Bill Little]

Sparky,

 I'm pretty sure you're OK running it across the fin and rudder like the original serial number would have been on the '47 as long as they are 1" or bigger. Good thinking on the placement by the way.

Warbirds Rule!

Hi Wayne,

That is correct like I said above.  We can put them on the rudder fin like a serial number as long as they are 1" high.  When I build my Bellanca Viking, it will be on the fuselage side just as on a full size plane.  Each of these placements are legal as the rule states for Precision Aerobatic C/L models.

My "latest" AMA number happens to be 6 numbers long, so it really appears scale on a WW-II Fighter like a Mustang or P-47! 

[Trostle]

This is just to help with some understanding or confusion that seems to reign whenever this subject comes up on the identification of our models as specified in the General rules, the Precision Aerobatic rules and the Scale rules.

There is a post above in this thread by Clancy Arnold that correctly quotes the rule book from the General and the PA sections of the AMA rulebook.  In short, the manner in which the General and PA rules are written, the PA rules have r precednece on what is required for models entered in the PA event.  The contestant's model "shall be identified by the contestant's AMA license number permanently affixed"  on the upper right wing, or the vertical tail or the fuselage with numbers at least one inch high.  I think the operative word above for PA model identification is the word "SHALL".   There is or should be no question that a model must have the contestant's AMA number on the right wing or on the vertical tail or on the fuselage for a PA model.   

I have never seen any policy or statement from the AMA that the reason for having a name or AMA number on a model is for insurance purposes.  I really doubt that any claim would be invalidated for lack of an AMA number on a model.  If this is a concern by any individual, a quick check with their AMA representative should provide a suitable answer.  I think that the reason the AMA wants numbers on models is for identification of lost models (as in Free Flight) and to demonstrate there is some organizational strucure that members have an identifying number.

Now, for a different event and there is going to be confusion because of some rules changes that go into effect on January 1.

The current "Unified Scale Judging Regulations" for CL Precision Scale state that the "Contestant"s name and AMA license number should be permanently displayed on the model in an inconspicuous location.  No point credit shall be lost because of such identificaiton."  The operative word here is the word "SHOULD".  There is no penalty specified if such a display on a model is not provided.  In other words, it is not necessary to place a name or AMA number anywhere on a scale model though I have seen some very clever locations for such identification on scale models and in very small letters, even though such marking is unnecessary.

Now, effective January 1, our AMA Scale Contest Board has seen fit to eliminate the Control Line Precision Scale event from the rulebook, so it would appear that any discussion on the marking of AMA precision scale entries is mute since there is no such event after January 1.  As far as I can determine from the rulebook, there are no specific identification requirements for Control Line Sport Scale, Control Line Designer Scale, Control Line Profile Scale or the provisional Control Line Fun Scale events.  For these events, the rulebook makes reference to the General AMA regulations which "shall be applicable".  As explained earlier, this states that "all models, except Indoor, will be identifed with the owner's name and address or AMA number, on or in the model."  So, after January 1, all models in the AMA control line scale events will have to have the name and address or the AMA number somewhere on or in the model, but with no requirement as to the size of the letters or numbers.

I think it is safe to assume that the infininte wisdom of the Scale Contest Board resulted in the elimination of the AMA Control Line Precision Scale event and their thinking is that the rules for FAI F4B Control Line Scale event can be used whenever any kind of a control line "precision scale" event is to be flown in the United States.  I really see nothing wrong with that because the AMA Precision Scale event currently is and soon will be known that it was redundant to the existing FAI rules.  It is interesting to note that the FAI rules for Control Line Scale (F4B) and RC Scale (F4C) DO NOT have any requirement to display the contestant's name or national aero club registration number anywhere on the model.

I think it should be incumbent upon the Scale Contest Board to review all of the soon to be remaining  control line scale rules and perform some clean up work on the rules that will now apply to the control line scale events.

I hope that all of this is not read as totally useless information.

Keith

[wwwarbird]

Bill,

 That's what I did on my "Horsin' Around" Midwest P-51 too. My AMA number is also 6 digits, so it works out real well.

[L0U CRANE]

Sparky, Crist and Jim T,

The paragraph quoted is for Event 322, CL Precision Aerobatics. That's the set of CLPA Rules that uses age classes and the BOM requirement. Event 322 Rules also contain everything you wanted to know about CLPA, but were afraid to ask... -- except for the Skill Classes.

The wording requiring the contestant's AMA Number, etc., is moot when you fly the Skill Classes, Events 323 thru 326. In each of the Skill Class Rules, BOM and Appearance Points have a separate paragraph, saying that the entrant need not be the builder of the model. 

There are no Appearance Points in AMA Beginner Class.

In AMA INT, ADV and EXP, only a contestant who has built the model entered can earn Appearance Points. (Keep in mind the re-definition of building the model that AMA posted around the time of the 2006 NATS...)

[Trostle]

Sparky, Crist and Jim T,

The paragraph quoted is for Event 322, CL Precision Aerobatics. That's the set of CLPA Rules that uses age classes and the BOM requirement. Event 322 Rules also contain everything you wanted to know about CLPA, but were afraid to ask... -- except for the Skill Classes.

The wording requiring the contestant's AMA Number, etc., is moot when you fly the Skill Classes, Events 323 thru 326. In each of the Skill Class Rules, BOM and Appearance Points have a separate paragraph, saying that the entrant need not be the builder of the model. 

There are no Appearance Points in AMA Beginner Class.

In AMA INT, ADV and EXP, only a contestant who has built the model entered can earn Appearance Points. (Keep in mind the re-definition of building the model that AMA posted around the time of the 2006 NATS...)

Lou,

I beg to differ with some of what you say above.  Indeed, event 322 tells us what is required for the Control Line Precision Aerobatics event.  That section of the rule book also encompasses events 323 through 326 which are the AMA Skill Classes.  Then, if you go to the specific wording for events 323 through 326, the words in that first paragraph on Applicability state that "...the General Control Line rules and the CL Aerobatics rules shall apply, except as specified below."  There are no exceptions in the skill classes regarding the "contestant's AMA license number" that is to be "permanently affixed" to the uper right wing, or the fuselage or the vertical tail as specified for the CL Precision Aerobatics event.

You have brought up a contentious point about the requirement for the "contestant's AMA license number" to be on the model in the skill classes where there is no BOM requirement.  The skill class rules do not address the situation where a contestant might use a model that already has a license number which is not his or hers.  The fact that because there is no BOM requirement in the skill classes does not negate the requirement for the "contestants AMA license number" to be on the model.  Whether or not appearance points are awarded in the skill classes also has nothing to do with the requirement to have the license number on the model.   There is nothing in the rulebook to indicate othewise.

I think most Contest Directors do not really enforce the requirement that the license number of the contestant be displayed on a model that has been borrowed.  The use of a borrowed airplane is allowed by the skill class rules as well as the rules for the unofficial Classic and OTS events.  The rules really do not address this situation unless a strict interpretation of the existing rules is made that would dictate the contestant's license number must be displayed on the model being flown by that contestant.

There should probably be a rules change proposal that really clears up this situation that a contestant may use a model that already has another license number on it.  This is something for the Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board to consider during the next rules change cycle which starts in January.

Suggestions to you friendly Contest Board member would probably be appreciated.

Keith Trostle

[L0U CRANE]

Keith,

Thanks for the fine distinction you bring to view, here. Agreed: for clarity, a rule modification addressing this quirky point would be useful!

The only reason I included Appearance Points in my post was that the same  paragraph in each of the Events 323-326 wording differs from the basic complete event rules and addresses both BOM and Appearance Points (which are different for BEG and INT/ADV/EXP.)

The builder of a completed model, I presumed, is clearly expected to place his own AMA# on the plane. An OP, borrowed or bought from original builder - apparently - can be expected to still have that number displayed. Other kinds of non-BOM models: e.g., ARFs and ARCs, may be entered by the assembler or others.

There are always Sharpie(c) and Marks-A-Lot(c) markers available to add a contestant's AMA#, if that's how we choose to go with this...

[john e. holliday]

Also remember that the CLACB can not consider anything that is not in the form of a proposal no matter how good it sounds.  Forms are available from the AMA.  Now is the time to think about how to clean up some of the gray areas of the rule book.  DOC Holliday

[Clancy Arnold]

Robert
I just re-read the rules I quoted in this thread and the General Rule says ALL models, except indoor, WILL be identified -----.  It also says that individual events MAY have ADDITIONAL requirements-----.  A proper interpretation would then be:  name, address and AMA number inside the model and then your AMA Number on the right lifting  -----.