News:


  • June 17, 2024, 11:51:39 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Sig Skyray Mods?  (Read 6561 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12833
Sig Skyray Mods?
« on: December 28, 2010, 05:27:35 PM »
Someone made mention of the Brett Buck/Dirty Dan mods to a Sig Skyray.

Since I have a Skyray with a 20FP, I kind of perked up and took note.

So -- what are the mods?  The airframe is complete (it's built bone stock, and miraculously well given the level of mechanical aptitude of the guy who put it together).  It's a nice mild trainerish thing as-is, so mostly I'm wondering if it's worth ripping into for more performance, or if I just want to hang on to it in case someone needs training.

So what needs done?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Taylor

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6092
  • If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
    • Our Local CL Web Page
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 05:39:19 PM »
Here is what I followed.

http://www.aeromaniacs.com/brett.htm

It was a kick in the pants today!
Paul
AMA 842917

Tight Lines = Fun Times

Offline Paul Taylor

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6092
  • If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
    • Our Local CL Web Page
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 05:58:04 PM »
B4 and After pictures..
Paul
AMA 842917

Tight Lines = Fun Times

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12833
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 05:59:31 PM »
Mine's uglier!

Where did you put the leadouts?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Taylor

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6092
  • If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
    • Our Local CL Web Page
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 06:07:28 PM »
I used the Line III program and put them where it said. I do have adj leadouts, but I am not going to touch them. ;D

I will try and put a yard stick on it. But I think Brett has it about right on his document.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 06:38:11 PM by Paul Taylor »
Paul
AMA 842917

Tight Lines = Fun Times

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13793
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 06:16:53 PM »
Someone made mention of the Brett Buck/Dirty Dan mods to a Sig Skyray.

Since I have a Skyray with a 20FP, I kind of perked up and took note.

So -- what are the mods?  The airframe is complete (it's built bone stock, and miraculously well given the level of mechanical aptitude of the guy who put it together).  It's a nice mild trainerish thing as-is, so mostly I'm wondering if it's worth ripping into for more performance, or if I just want to hang on to it in case someone needs training.

So what needs done?

    Virtually nothing. The only performance modifications are to remove the rudder offset and replace the single-wheel gear with a two-wheel gear. I also currently have an enlarged elevator (extra 1/2") but that's a pretty dubious improvement.

     I later "modified" mine further after it got completely destroyed at a stunt clinic. The wing shattered into confetti after the first hard crash. I rebuilt it with 3/32 balsa at every station (no half ribs),  1/8 x 3/8 balsa spars, and decent wood for the LE and trailing edges. That lost about 6 ounces out of the wing. It didn't significantly improve the performance but it has proven MUCH more durable than the stock arrangement. All the spruce and plywood did was make it so heavy that the wings just evaporated when it hit. The current airplane has crashed straight in (on grass/dirt) at least 20 times with no consequential damage to the airframe. But even dropping the all-up weight by 20% made nearly no difference in the performance.

    But the key to the whole thing is the engine. I did a lot of experiments using small (15-25 sized) engines as  replacements for the Fox 35 and similar, uh, "vintage" style motors. The intent was to get at least equal performance but far better likelihood of success with an inexpensive and easily available engine that ran better on a profile. That worked out great - essentially any of the engines I tried provided equal performance to a Fox (even the 15FP) and most of them were tremendously better. The best of the bunch be far was the 20FP ABC, BONE STOCK out the box with the STOCK muffler, as in no modifications AT ALL, as described at extraordinary length in about 100 SSW posts. With a Fox it "flew like a trainer" and was a challenge, at times, to get through a respectable stunt pattern. With any of the alternates, spinning a variety of 3-4" pitch props just like the big boys, it became a pretty competitive system that could win any Advanced contest in the world.  I won't belabor it, go to either the Stunthangar or SSW search box and type in "Brett Skyray 20FP" and you will get far more than you ever wanted to know about it.

   The key to running other similar engines it to follow the same process I did, largely as described in the SuperTigre G34 thread in the engine section.

     If you are going to use a, uh, "vintage" motor, don't spend any time with modifications, it's not going to fly particularly well no matter what you do.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12833
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 06:52:15 PM »
"vintage" style motors ... With a Fox it "flew like a trainer" ... "vintage" motor

Point taken.  Thanks.

It's got a 20 FP on it, and the only way that motor's coming off is if I steal it for my flapped stunter (which is probably wise, as the Skyray is the designated "fun plane").

I still need to decide if I want to crack the rudder and straighten it (probably), and whether I want to rip the leadouts off of their stock (widely spaced) locations and move them (debatable, although I should.  I don't know how much difference it makes).  I'll be making a decent set of lines for it (for some reason I had a set of 50' .018 lines kicking around -- obviously that's too short and too heavy for this; I'm not sure where they came from, but I've had them since high school, 30 years ago).
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Fernandez

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1275
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2010, 01:38:15 AM »
Point taken.  Thanks.

It's got a 20 FP on it, and the only way that motor's coming off is if I steal it for my flapped stunter (which is probably wise, as the Skyray is the designated "fun plane").

I still need to decide if I want to crack the rudder and straighten it (probably), and whether I want to rip the leadouts off of their stock (widely spaced) locations and move them (debatable, although I should.  I don't know how much difference it makes).  I'll be making a decent set of lines for it (for some reason I had a set of 50' .018 lines kicking around -- obviously that's too short and too heavy for this; I'm not sure where they came from, but I've had them since high school, 30 years ago).

Brett might disagree here, but one of the biggest improvements to the Skyrays I built for my son, was going from .015 to .012 lines.  As I recall, I think they were 58 ft. in length. Everything about the plane and motor were box stock except for adjustable leadouts and no rudder offset.
The great thing about the Skyray is that you can trim it nose heavy for a trainer, then as your skills improve you can move the CG back to make the plane more responsive. This is where the adjustable lead outs come in handy. As the CG is shifted back you will want to move the lead outs back as well.

A well trimmed Skyray with an FP .20 can be very competitive at the advanced level.
I have seen and flown enough of them to know this is true

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22797
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2010, 08:40:25 AM »
I am going to disagree with you. VD~  I too went to .012 lines when it was pointed out there was less weight and drag.  The kids took over the planes and started flying the SkyRays,  Original Magician and the Flite Streak.   I went back to the bigger planes.  Then I decided to fly the Skyray and had my hands full.  LA .25 for power.  The controls just seemed sluggish.  Had my .015 lines and switched lines.  Then the plane felt like I remember.  The Magician is the only one of the three that likes the .012 lines. 

But, the SkyRay has done what it was designed to do and that was to get people to build and fly.  The only thing I changed on one was the stab/elevator for carrier. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Bill Little

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
  • Second in COMMAND
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2010, 09:27:47 AM »
Gotta agree with Brett (and some others! LOL!!) !

Lose the ply ribs if it isn't built yet.  Use balsa every where you can to replace ply/spruce (unless you are going to use it for a "roundy round" trainer.

Best bet is .015s in about 58' eye to eye lines.

It will win a the Advanced level set up that way with good trim.

Big Bear
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12833
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2010, 11:24:34 AM »
It's already built, so I'm stuck with a lot of what I have already, and trapped between laziness and a desire to make everything 'perfect' for the rest.

The two easiest fixes that I know are going to .015 x 58' lines, and straightening the rudder.  I'm hoping for good weather on the 1st, so I can go fly at Delta Park (the Waiex has paint drying).  If I can't do anything other than just change the lines I think it'll fly better, but I'll have to try getting the rudder straight.

Contrary to Brett's suggestion to just put the lines where Line III says, I think I'll take Larry's suggestion to put in an adjustable leadout guide.  I want to keep this thing capable of being a trainer, and the biggest part of the work to do the leadouts is the destruction and reconstruction.  So not going to the slight extra work of adjustable leadouts doesn't make much sense to me.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Fernandez

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1275
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2010, 01:05:28 PM »
I am going to disagree with you. VD~  I too went to .012 lines when it was pointed out there was less weight and drag.  The kids took over the planes and started flying the SkyRays,  Original Magician and the Flite Streak.   I went back to the bigger planes.  Then I decided to fly the Skyray and had my hands full.  LA .25 for power.  The controls just seemed sluggish.  Had my .015 lines and switched lines.  Then the plane felt like I remember.  The Magician is the only one of the three that likes the .012 lines. 

But, the SkyRay has done what it was designed to do and that was to get people to build and fly.  The only thing I changed on one was the stab/elevator for carrier. H^^

Hi Doc,
When trimmed correctly, Aaron's Skyrays flew light on the lines. With .012 lines there was no stretch to speak of and the controls were quite responsive.


Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline Ron Merrill

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 278
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2010, 02:34:50 PM »
Paul, what is the line III program? n~ Ron.

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13793
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 03:14:37 PM »
It's already built, so I'm stuck with a lot of what I have already, and trapped between laziness and a desire to make everything 'perfect' for the rest.

The two easiest fixes that I know are going to .015 x 58' lines, and straightening the rudder.  I'm hoping for good weather on the 1st, so I can go fly at Delta Park (the Waiex has paint drying).  If I can't do anything other than just change the lines I think it'll fly better, but I'll have to try getting the rudder straight.

Contrary to Brett's suggestion to just put the lines where Line III says, I think I'll take Larry's suggestion to put in an adjustable leadout guide.  I want to keep this thing capable of being a trainer, and the biggest part of the work to do the leadouts is the destruction and reconstruction.  So not going to the slight extra work of adjustable leadouts doesn't make much sense to me.

 Adjustable leadouts certainly won't hurt anything but if they wind up more than about 1/8" off the "line sag" position something is crooked or it's trimmed wrong. My leadouts are centered about 2 3/8 behind the LE and are 1" apart.

     If anyone wants to trim theirs exactly like mine, check this post:

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=198043&mesg_id=198043

     The longitudinal CG could go aft of where this says, as far as about 1 3/8".

     I wouldn't limit yourself to a mere 58'. I have run as much as 64' but eventually settled on 62 - until I lost them and can only find 60's.

    Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12833
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 04:50:57 PM »
Talk about something being crooked -- I decided to straighten the rudder off the plane instead of on, which was a good thing.  Once I got it stripped I found that not only was the fin clearly warped, it also wasn't put on the fuse straight!  So now I need to sand off the gobs of epoxy that it was put on with, fabricate a new one, and get it stuck on (with epoxy, since nothing else really sticks  :().  I hate re-doing bad work.  At least this isn't mine!
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Bill Adair

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 882
  • AMA 182626
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 03:38:55 PM »
Tim,

Have you flown the Skyray since you did the mods?

I didn't make it to Delta Park on the 1st, but heard from a friend in the club that it was very cold, but otherwise good flying weather.

My Skyray is powered with one of those engines Brett says won't work (McCoy 35 red head), but the way I fly it doesn't really matter?  ;D

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12833
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2011, 04:04:57 PM »
Have you flown the Skyray since you did the mods?

Yes, it flew quite well, and I don't even have the leadouts adjusted yet -- I'm just using the as-built locations. 

There's a saga about those mods, posted on the builder's section (http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=19979.0) -- I have just performed my second rudderectomy on that plane, and am about to glue the new rudder on for the fourth time.  I'm not usually this inept of a builder; I sure hope I get it right this time!

Quote
I didn't make it to Delta Park on the 1st, but heard from a friend in the club that it was very cold, but otherwise good flying weather.

My Skyray is powered with one of those engines Brett says won't work (McCoy 35 red head), but the way I fly it doesn't really matter?  ;D

It was only very cold for Portland Oregon (30F).  Folks in Minnesota would just be rolling their sleeves down.  Other than that it was excellent weather.  The thing I appreciated most was the steady breeze out of the east, from the direction of the fewest trees and just strong enough so you knew where to place your maneuvers.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Bill Adair

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 882
  • AMA 182626
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2011, 04:49:34 PM »
Your right, some folks would love to have 30 degree weather this time of year. That's why I don't live in a colder climate.  ;D

Interesting thread, but don't blame yourself. See my comments on the other thread.

Bill
Not a flyer (age related), but still love the hobby!

Offline wwwarbird

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7988
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2011, 09:04:39 PM »
 This might be the most modified Skyray to date...

 
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=3072.msg21692;topicseen#msg21692

 
 Sadly, it had a very short life. For the first 20-25 flights it flew very well until I had an oddly abrupt engine stall overhead. In disbelief I brainfaded, and I waited that second too long to start running. SPLAT-end of Skyray. It was a real bummer because in hindsight it would have been a totally saveable maneuver.  :(
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 05:55:04 PM by wwwarbird »
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Paul Taylor

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6092
  • If God is your Co-pilot - swap seats!
    • Our Local CL Web Page
Re: Sig Skyray Mods?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2011, 10:15:17 AM »
That's too bad Ray. I remember when you posted that. It was one of the best looking profiles I have seen....not your run of the mill SkyRay.

Now I remember why I recovered my SkyRay Dove Gray. Now if I can just get some color on mine. My graphic guy has seem to have flown south for the winter and it may be spring before I get any color on mine. LL~
Paul
AMA 842917

Tight Lines = Fun Times


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here