C17 Vertical Fin/Rudder

[Chuck_Smith]

I mean, I get it. I understand why it's at the angle it's at. I understand why they made it so tall. I understand efficiency.

But gee, could it be any uglier?  I guess this is what happens when you let computers design airplanes. Contrast it with the vertical fins on classic Boeing designs: A 707  fin and rudder practically says "Make love to me", the 747 has that big Estes Alpha tail fin we all loved as a kids.

But who decided to stick that sore thumb ( that's the PC description)  on the C17? C'mon have some imagination.



Chuck

[Gerald Arana]

What's a C-17? Got a picture?
Jerry

[Gary Dowler]

The design is entirely based on the needs of the flight envelope. Often heavily loaded, low approach speeds, etc.  it may not be pretty, but it’s eminently functional. 

Gary

[Dave Hull]

As I recall, the GAO thought the vertical stabilizer was pretty ugly, too.  Not that I would put any faith into the GAO's analysts and consultants reviewing weapons programs. They are simply "NO!" people. Unless something was developed previously at no cost to the government, and had both a 50 year track record of proven performance while at the same time being cutting edge technology that won't be obsolete in 5 years, then their standard answer is to cancel the program. As I recall, their gurus stated that the vertical tail in the C-17 was fatally flawed in its structure and could not be fixed; hence the entire program should be cancelled.

As Boeing celebrated the final production delivery of the 279th aircraft, including to seven or so other countries, I'd guess you'd have to say it has proven to be pretty effective.

These kinds of development issues are to be expected in new airframes. You have to understand how the analysis and test paths are interwoven and why mods are required late in the development cycle. Those who are unable to understand the engineering cycle, which is complex, should stay out of procurement. It is a very high pucker factor occupation. And the beltway bandits have no skin in the game....

The other "tails" that you say you like the looks of are not T-tails, and therefore are not relevant to the mission or a real discussion about forward heavy transport capabilities. If you like the looks of the 747, then look at the faces of the troops when the equipment they desperately need coming in on one of those splatters all over when they overrun the runway at some forward base. Then the C-17 starts to look a lot "prettier."

Dave

PS--If you ever get to see one of these operate from a really small airport, you will realize that they have something in common with running a locomotive. If they have to back up down the runway because there isn't room to turn around, they drop the ramp down level and have one of the crew stand on it. His job is to look backwards and make sure they are clear, and probably giving guidance to the pilot via headset.

[Steve Helmick]

Not all that bad! Could have copied the Antonov an-225 setup...or the '57 Nobler.  Steve

[Dan McEntee]

   I think the C-17 fits the "One hell of an airplane"  criteria of description.  Most people don't get to see them at all or get to see them in operation.  I'm sure there must be some YouTube video of some short field operations of one. They are designed to operate off unimproved fields also  I've seen the really wrung out and hot rodded at airshows and they are incredibly maneuverable. I think they have a HUD function for short field landing where if you load up the proper info on the landing location it puts up an image on the windshield with a target indication where on the end of the runway you need to set it down at in order to get it stopped in time.  As cool as the C-5 and CV-141 were, I would rather have more c-17's in my air force for the simple fact that you know you can put them down almost anywhere in the world and make logistics of moving supplies and man power much more simple and efficient.  I think the tail looks just fine!!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

Just typed in C-17 Airplane and got all kinds of pictures.  As stated the hial horizintal tail get it up in clean air.   I remember the C-5's at the NATS taking off when we were back east.   Didn't look like it would get air borne at the speed it was moving, but then it would rotate and go up.  Would like to see the C-17 in action.

[Mike Danford]

I flew S-3 Vikings, a rather large vert stab and rudder.  Turns out it was designed to be short enough to fit on a mid deck elevator, which dictated the rather larger than average tail.  Then, it was too tall, so they then made it foldable.  Classic example of cascading effects. 

Also made the plane a little unique in that because the tail was so large, the plane CAN NOT spin!  Rather, as it continually gained airspeed, it was a high speed spiral.  As such, never needed “anti spin” controls to recover.  Of course we had “anti spin” controls and procedures, which of course are a recipe for a spin the other way...  As such, the only two ejections ever initiated because of an inability to recover from a “spin” by the prescribed altitude, just happened to be observed by another aircraft in the operating area.  Both times the vacated jet recovered by itself!  Then crashed.... 

Just a funny thing.  My guess is the large ugly (to some) rudder is indeed a necessity of HEAVY and SLOW and short enough to maneuver in the ground on narrow runways. 

Tools

PS. The folding rudder caused a funny situation for me once.  After landing on the carrier you got the signal to fold wings as necessary.  The right seater, a NFO, did that.  For some reason you lost all the artificial feel in the rudder pedals with the rudder folded (shouldn’t ever need to taxi that way anyway, so no biggie) .  My NFO (coincidently the squadron commander) inadvertently folded the rudder instead of the wings once... I damn near lost control of the jet, swinging around like mad with ZERO resistance in the rudder pedals and FULL nose wheel steering authority, and I was BIG since the wings weren’t folding... I’m screaming at him, driving like drunk Irishman, handlers are diving for cover, the boss is yelling at me... what a mess! 

[Elwyn Aud]

I always thought the C-17 vertical stab and rudder resembled a yard stick that had been cut off at an angle.

[FLOYD CARTER]

Talk about strange rudders!  Have a look at the B-52.  That tall rudder looks like an after-thought.

[Steve Dwyer]

I don't know, we are so used to seeing oddball empennage configurations on modern transport aircraft the C17 rudder doesn't jump out to me as that unusual. What comes to mind though is a couple of thoughts that the straight line rudder might be more cost-effective to build than a rudder with a varied or curved chord?? And, of course, any T-tail must require a much heavier platform in the tail cone of the fuse to support the added forces beyond a conventionally mounted rudder and stab. Noted one more point with the C17, the upper T appears to be a stabilator while it still has inboard and outboard elevators, or are they just trim planes?  And would the stabs rotate independently? That raises some questions.  Guess I'm just more familiar with a Piper Cherokee and have never paid much attention to the control surfaces on the heavys at least not up until now.

Steve

[Fredvon4]

I like the Globe-master C-17

[Dave Hull]

The only part of that plane that looks kosher IS the VS, Freddo....

[John Park]

Talk about strange rudders!  Have a look at the B-52.  That tall rudder looks like an after-thought.

Wasn't the early B-17 noticeably under-finned?  I heard that was what gave Boeing their big-fin fetish - which in turn gave the later B-17s the nickname of 'the big-assed bird'.
To quote Sir Geoffrey De Havilland: an ugly aeroplane may be all right, but a beautiful aeroplane always flies beautifully.  Clearly, the C17 is one of those that did turn out to be all right!

[Fredvon4]

We used to see BUFFs --B52s from up north Tinker I think, use Gray Army Airfield for training. Fun to watch some new pilot do a short hard steep turn to final and blow it...The other pilot took command and push to full military power and save the stall and go around again ...very dramatic from our smoke break vantage of the north approach to GRK....not to be confused with GRF Joint Base Lewis-McChord.

Now all we see are C5 and C17 training. Most of the remaining B52s (58 are in service, 18 in reserve, and about 12 in long-term storage.) are at Barksdale Air Force Base, Louisiana or Diego Garcia. A family AirForce friend told me a few were temp assigned to a air base near Japan for any problems relating to China and North Korea

[John Park]

I've just realised where they got the idea from!  Somebody must have been learning to fly C/L in 1960 or thereabouts, and built one of these (note alternative fin shape in dotted lines).

[Avaiojet]

Strange rudders?