News:


  • July 03, 2025, 12:55:42 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Buy it now!  (Read 2927 times)

Offline Robert Zambelli

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3058
Buy it now!
« on: August 13, 2021, 07:50:06 PM »
Is anyone crazy enough to buy this?

$949.00

             http://www.ebay.com/itm/114770757748?hash=item1ab8dec874:g:mgAAAOSwysBgevL9


Offline Avaiojet

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7468
  • Just here for the fun of it also.
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2021, 09:25:36 PM »
Is anyone crazy enough to buy this?

$949.00

             http://www.ebay.com/itm/114770757748?hash=item1ab8dec874:g:mgAAAOSwysBgevL9

I guy I do lettering for has no computer. We just discovered we both do or did model airplanes.

He wants me to sell some of his stuff. He has a few of these Cox .049 engines in excellent shape BTW, and a bunch of OS Max R/C engines. 40, 61, 25 and others.

I'll place them on Stunthanger before I go to ebay.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Dan McEntee

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7522
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2021, 09:34:28 PM »
  Well, Larry Renger or some of the other Cox guys may be able to confirm it, but I think this is a fake. It has a plastic back plate, not the goldish colored die cast back plate that was typical of Cox Black Widows, Golden Bees, BabyBees, and the Venom. I have a Venom that I bought new at the hobby shop I worked at when they came out, so I know it's the real deal. I have had it on a Golden Age Racer and been running it. It has the metal back plate. They came out when Cox was still Cox or at least before they were sold to Estes. I have to dig out my box to be sure, but I don't think they went that far as to number them either. The anodizing on the case looks too red also. But to me, the back plate is the give away at first glance. You need to take a look at the crank to see if it's a heavy duty crank also. If it was authentic, I have seen them go at $300 to $400 but not that high.
   What does anyone else think?
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Reptoid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 461
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2021, 11:09:49 PM »
Is anyone crazy enough to buy this?

$949.00

             http://www.ebay.com/itm/114770757748?hash=item1ab8dec874:g:mgAAAOSwysBgevL9
Given the current level of general intelligence being exhibited in our Country I say Yes, someone is that crazy
Regards,
       Don
       AMA # 3882

Online Dave Hull

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2112
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2021, 03:27:38 AM »
Ummm. Not so sure about the backplate being a giveaway. I have seen what are purported to be the real deal with the black backplates as used on some Black Widows. The piece that would convince me is whether it has the thinwall piston and the correct cylinder porting. The rest of the stuff you can mix 'n match (just like Cox did at the factory) and get you a Venom. For example, I think the crank was just a Killer Bee crank. Yes, it's better than the other cranks, but they made a lot of Killer Bees so that crank is not what I'd call rare. I've busted a couple of them myself....

Dave

PS--That's not the serial number 140 on the box, that's the product number. The Black Widow was product number 150. The Tee Dee .051 was product number 200, etc.

PPS--someone could buy it with cryptocurrency. That way, you could argue about whether it is inherently worth anything other than the thousands of computing hours it took you to dig it out of the the netherworld of big data, and with the absolute assurance that it'll triple in value--just like the Venom--in less than 60 days, or your money back. Oh, wait. No money back. All sales are final....

Online Dan McEntee

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7522
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2021, 08:45:49 AM »
  Well, Cox International is selling a "Venom -II" for $99  that looks exactly like the one pictured. Another eBay seller is offering replica boxes, so you figure it out!!
 The wrenches look like they have been rattling around some ones tool box for a while also. The Cox International offering uses TeeDee piston and cylinder. Without getting to examine it, I think it's a fake, one of the Cox International Venom-II engines in a replica box.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/324682718849?hash=item4b98991e81:g:GTAAAOSwm9dgTCx1

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/391479187950?hash=item5b25fa59ee:g:AF8AAOSwo-5eQyNJ

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline 944_Jim

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 940
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2021, 09:01:19 AM »
I returned to the hobby later (only a few years ago). I fell out of the hobby back in the early 80's, but Cox engines hadn't had plastic backplates at that point.  Honestly, I can't validate plastic means "only" Estes/ExModel Engines/Cox Intl (ie not LM Cox or Leisure Dynamics), but....

 1) Either a good fake clone as the jewel case/cards have been reproduced lately.
2) A last-ditch engine run from Estes with left over parts based on the plastic backplate.
3) Venoms can be reproduced by the average builder. Like Mr. Dan said...HD cranks are available, and the backplate can be drilled out to Venom specs. I think the NVA is supposed to be a fine-thread one.

You won't catch me spending that kind of coin until I build a curio to store old, antique engines my offspring will never appreciate (which means it is in my will to toss the whole lot so family doesn't feel bad attempting to salvage "an investment").

To the seller: I hope you find your sucker.
To the builder/buyer: Feel free to take your stock Bee and upgrade it to Venom specs...and invest the remaining several hundred dollars in stock.

To the purchasing collector: This will look great in your curio case...please write me into your will to compassionately and quietly remove the "toys" from your family's presence at "the appropriate time."
 LL~

PS...my phone died while typing. This should have been post #4 right after Dan's first.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4503
    • owner
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2021, 11:37:41 AM »
Judging from the operator's manual, there are too many things which will "degrade performance".  In other words, it seems too easy to wreck this engine during the course of normal operations.  I prefer an engine which will have a good chance of surviving a season of flying.
91 years, but still going
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020

Offline john e. holliday

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22988
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2021, 12:12:21 PM »
Will be interesting to see if it does sell.  I've seen some stuff on the bay I thought went for rediculous prices. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4060
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2021, 01:07:45 PM »
Venoms did have plastic backplates. I engineered it and rechecked mine.

I think this the real deal, but over 3 times a reasonable price.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Dan McEntee

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7522
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2021, 01:13:14 PM »
Venoms did have plastic backplates. I engineered it and rechecked mine.

   What year were they produced, Larry? Mine has a metal back plate just like the Black Widow. I bought mine through the hobby shop. Dealers were only allowed two, I think at that time. I was pretty sure this was before plastic back plates, especially if you were still working there.?
  I love a good mystery!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Online Dave Hull

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2112
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2021, 11:35:03 PM »
Dan,

I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you, but what you have is a clone. The hobby distributor back in the day couldn't fill all the orders and so they had some guy in a dark garage building....clones. They are everywhere....

Hopefully, this won't impact your overall retirement plans, as you can still put yours on ebay and ask whatever might be needed to top up the old 401k. The seller of the current item listed is simply forging (sorry) the way for you to recoup your losses.

The Divot

Offline kenneth cook

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1500
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2021, 05:24:56 AM »
             The Cox International at a quick glance looks like the Venom but it's far from it. Cox International doesn't use a TD cylinder. It uses a Sure Start with the slit bar removed. This leaves the machined surface ( Not to mention burrs)  without black oxide on it. The tanks are also aftermarket and if you look at it, the tank has a radius on it and somewhat transitions into a flat directly in front of the filler pipe. The pipes are also glued into it on the inside. The anodizing on the Cox International is also almost flat in color and not the high translucent gloss that Cox used.

             Cox International doesn't offer or use TD cylinders. Even what is suggested as a TD cylinder is a Sure Start and states with TD like performance.

Online Dan McEntee

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7522
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2021, 06:11:43 AM »
Dan,

I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you, but what you have is a clone. The hobby distributor back in the day couldn't fill all the orders and so they had some guy in a dark garage building....clones. They are everywhere....

Hopefully, this won't impact your overall retirement plans, as you can still put yours on ebay and ask whatever might be needed to top up the old 401k. The seller of the current item listed is simply forging (sorry) the way for you to recoup your losses.

The Divot

      Nope, I got mine when they were released originally. I have used mine on a 1/2A Golden Age Racer model that our club used to have an event for. I've had mine apart to go through it to reset the piston and such, so I know it has the correct guts. It's still mounted to the model, a profile rendition of Art Chester's Goon. I remember paying in the $30 range for mine through the hobby shop I used to work part time at. I think I got it near the same time frame as when they came out with the gold Pitts Specials, but it's been a long time ago. If they are supposed to have a plastic back plate I may have changed mine to a metal unit when I put it on the Goon. I have slept a few times since then and don't remember. My 401K is just fine. I have never collected my stuff to speculate on making obscene profits, then are too much fun to use!!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline 944_Jim

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 940
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2021, 07:23:04 AM »
Slight thread drift...since this one has the attention of  several people with keen recollections of "back in the day." I hope to get a consolidated idea of the company ownership changes.

I remember LM Cox, and vaguely remember when it sold to Leisure Dynamics. I wasn't active in the hobby when Estes had it, nor when Estes sold it.

At what point in the company movement did plastic tank backplates come to exist? I suspect around the transition from Leisure Dynamics to Estes. I actually consider metal backplates to be LM Cox/Leisure Dynamics era.

When did Leisure Dynamics buy the name? I think early 80's.

Did the original tooling go to Leisure Dynamics? I think I read that the tooling never went to Estes.

When did Estes buy the line, and how long did Estes keep it before selling off to the next bunch?

As far as I know (which isn't much), the whole lot (except tooling) went to California Dan, EX ModelEngines and Cox Intl. When did this happen, and am I putting this part together right?

Oh, and back to the Venom at hand...were all Venoms tanked? I seem to remember horseshoe backplated  (tankless) Venoms...but they could have been clones, and this could have been gleaned while I began researching the state of the hobby as I came back into it (around 2016).

Thanks for the history lesson...let the Venom fly!

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4060
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2021, 08:36:10 AM »
The original Venoms were made around 1994 I think. They ALL had plastic backplates.

The “horseshoe” backplate engines were Killer Bees. Mostly the same as the Venom except for the lightweight piston.

The plastic backplate was standard before my return to Cox in 1992.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline kenneth cook

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1500
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2021, 09:36:36 AM »
            Cox plastic backplates were introduced in 1987. I have a invoice from Cox not Estes explaining the change which just recently occurred. At this point, it wasn't uncommon to receive new engines with metal backplates and plastic. It's whatever was on hand. I also received new TD .051's with the black plastic carb body as well. This was the era of get it out the door and use whatever.

Offline John Rist

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3047
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2021, 12:45:15 PM »
PS just check the Ebay link and it is marked as SOLD!    LL~
John Rist
AMA 56277

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4060
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2021, 04:28:06 PM »
PT Barnum was right!  n1
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline GallopingGhostler

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 566
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2021, 11:37:33 PM »
Some people have money to burn.  :##

https://coxengines.ca/performance-engines/cox--049-engine-venom-ii.html



Regarding the aftermarket Venom II sold by Bernie at Cox International, he states in the description what he did to come up with this higher performance engine, so no hidden surprises. He calls it the "II" version to differentiate it from Cox's original. From what I understand, on the Cox Engine Forums, seems to be a decent engine.

Regarding the "Tee Dee" cylinder, Bernie explained what he did.

https://coxengines.ca/top-end/cox--049-tee-dee-cylinder-and-piston.html

Quote
These are special manufacture; whereas we took a "Production" cylinder, removed the bar in the exhaust ports and lowered the bottom port cut-out to induce SPI. This cylinder will equal OEM Tee Dee cylinder performance and is currently our highest-performance cylinder but please note that they are not "tapered" and the piston can be slid through the top of the cylinder.

So, at $20 each, since the original Tee Dee cylinders are no longer available, it is the next best thing.

In April 2008, I bought 2 Sure Starts from the Cox surplus store by Estes for $6.99 each plus $7.99 shipping. Then in January 2009, bought a plane item. Not long after that, the store closed. Then in June 2009, I made my first order to Cox International for .049 engine parts. I guess it was sometime in Spring 2009 that Cox International and Ex Model Engines bought the bulk of Estes Cox inventory, and I recall may be another party or two with a smaller amount (but I could be wrong).

From what I heard, Estes was basically building engines from left over parts inventory from Cox.

Didn't experience it myself, but other modelers have described some of the odd mixing and matching of parts under Estes, whose management didn't seem to have a really good handle on differentiating sport engine parts versus performance parts, so some of the higher performance engines wound up with the lesser performing sport parts. Plus, they didn't have the talented staff to match piston fit to cylinders, so some suffered from compression leaks.

I guess toward the end they were grabbing for straws.

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4060
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2021, 07:11:34 PM »
No. Barry was an @$$h0l3 (like I have never before seen and hope to never again) and didn't give a $h1t about quality. I'm reasonably sure he just said label it the quality engine and throw it in a box.

Certainly the last Killer Bees were NOTHING like specified. At least he never did a second run of Venoms.

Gee you might think I didn't love the guy.  >:D R%%%% ~^ :X HB~>

Rumor has it that he ran a 1/4 million sets of production engine parts and sold all the equipment needed to make them, dooming Cox forever. He also is rumored to have sold the original “Mable” Estes engine machine for scrap. Vern was devastated. It should have gone to a museum. Perhaps G*d will have a few words with him before he is riding the down escalator.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 07:46:58 PM by Larry Renger »
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline GallopingGhostler

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 566
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2021, 08:11:08 PM »
No. Barry was an @$$h0l3 (like I have never before seen and hope to never again) and didn't give a $h1t about quality. I'm reasonably sure he just said label it the quality engine and throw it in a box.

Certainly the last Killer Bees were NOTHING like specified. At least he never did a second run of Venoms. Gee you might think I didn't love the guy.  >:D R%%%% ~^ :X HB~>

Rumor has it that he ran a 1/4 million sets of production engine parts and sold all the equipment needed to make them, dooming Cox forever. He also is rumored to have sold the original “Mable” Estes engine machine for scrap. Vern was devastated. It should have gone to a museum. Perhaps G*d will have a few words with him before he is riding the down escalator.

Larry, I am not sure who "Barry" is, let alone Vern. Last of the Cox executives prior to Estes acquiring the Cox parts?

I have always been a Cox fan, because at least the earlier engines I acquired up into the late 1970's were quality engines.

Then, I did half-A RC stuff, because as a college student and also working in a job after that didn't afford me as much leisure time, building and flying half-A was a nice past time, doesn't get easier than this, in spite of some of the RC club arrogance toward flying "toy airplanes". Treated right, those engines never let me down.

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4060
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2021, 08:38:35 PM »
Verne Estes was the founder of Estes Industries and a wizard machine designer. He invented the machine (Mable) to make model rocket engines. I believe he and his wife are still with us.

Barry Tunic was a toy company executive who ran Cox for a few years, bought then sold it. No model background or interest I know of. My interactions with him are highly negative in my memory.

Fortunately he fired me on the day I was going to quit, so I got unemployment payments.Nyaa, nyaa , nyaa Barry!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline GallopingGhostler

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 566
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2021, 09:41:35 PM »
Thanks, Larry, for the history lesson. Sorry to hear of your fall out with the last of the "Cox" management. When I worked in aerospace, I saw a few of those type managers, who had little respect for their lead persons, also in other jobs.

Back in the late 1980's, I was kind of under the impression that Cox was on its way out. They really cheapened up on the CL RTF's.

I hope I am not stepping on toes. Brought out the .074 Queen Bee engine, which appeared to be a huge mistake from the get go. With Tee Dee like performance with smaller props, as laid out it is very heavy, which is not good for any engine. The A.C. Gilberts were similar in weight, their downfall.

Perhaps I'm a dreamer, but when first discussed prior to release, thought if reed valve, would be a lighter weight but larger 290 engine, which would make sense, use a lighter weight exhaust throttle, more powerful than a .049 reed valve. The engine is also extra long, which is a drawback. It has remained a shelf item.

However, really liked the .049 R/C Bee when it first came out. It was a very sweet running engine, nice, lightweight with an extended tank. But it was short lived. Don't know if true but rumor-mill had it that the silicon cover muffler was a patent violation.

Offline Warren Walker

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 309
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2021, 04:18:29 PM »
So you're telling me I didn't get a good deal.
W.W. 

Offline GallopingGhostler

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 566
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2021, 08:01:16 PM »
So you're telling me I didn't get a good deal.

You're jesting, no?  %^@

That price reminded me of Harley Davidson motorcycle prices some were attempting to gain, thinking their 5 to 10 YO bike would get the same price as new.  n~ I would see the same ad for months on end.

Yet, I've seen some here recently that have been selling their engines on the classifieds at reasonable prices, a little surprised some don't snap them up as quickly as I would think. n1

I'd buy those (not the Cox mentioned by the OP HB~> ), except I have already enough .35's and others stockpiled already. ;)

Offline GallopingGhostler

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 566
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2021, 04:04:13 PM »
Interesting, going on leads from Larry Renger, information is scant on the 'net, but found this:

https://www.payloadbay.com/article-estes-cox-corp.html

Quote
Estes-Cox Corp. was formed in 2002 when Barry Tunick bought Centuri, Estes's parent company.

After, found this:

https://www.payloadbay.com/article-toybiz-inc.html

Quote
In 1997, Centuri, the parent company of Estes Industries, sued Toy Biz and New England Paper for allegedly stealing trade secrets including critical design components used for Estes's solid-propellant rocket motors and their igniters.

Toy Biz, a company now called "Marvel Toys" and owned by Marvel Comics, acquired Quest Aerospace in September of 1996. The lawsuits filed by Centuri allege that Toy Biz obtained confidential information on Estes's patents and designs through Quest Aerospace.

New England Paper, for more than 30 years, manufactured the paper tubes used by Estes to make their model rocket motors. The lawsuits allege that New England Paper disclosed or used Estes's confidential and proprietary model rocket motor tube specifications and tolerances when manufacturing motor tubes for Quest.

Sounds like this predates Barry Tunic, but to cut to the chase, seems to be another legal entanglement over the simplest of design elements. I don't know what to make of it, court dismissed the lawsuit with prejudice, which means that Century could no longer pursue the suit.

It is sort of a quaint reminder of the bellcrank lawsuit against Cox in the 1950's over the simplest of elements already in use as prior art.

Life was certainly easier in the 1960's.  D>K

Offline 944_Jim

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 940
Re: Buy it now!
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2021, 04:56:28 PM »
So a lot more happened to Cox back in the day!

So how does California Dan play into the big sell-off?

Tags: