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Author Topic: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer  (Read 5613 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« on: June 13, 2016, 05:23:30 PM »
The temperature topped 90 and feels like 101F so it's building season in Florida. I decided to build a Barnstormer with the spinner shaped nose (as on the Gillow's box). Will power it with the Fox 35 and make it as the original with the two spars and no cap strips. I have an old A. J Free Flight kit that I purchased about 20 years ago. This kit is as close to a pile of balsa planks and sticks as you can get. So far I can use the fuse sides, top rudder, stab and elevator (with some stiffening) and the ribs with a lot of rework. Lucky for me I have a set of the original plans to rework the parts from.

First thing I like to build is the wing. The kit ribs are just a stake of solid ribs, no lighting holes, just the spar notches cut. I started by drilling the 3/8" holes for my rod jig. Then added some lighting holes and the notches for the forward spar. Next will mark the rib locations on the spars and start to cut out the parts for the trailing edge and stationary flaps, then the leading edge that will fit with the leading edge sheeting.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 01:32:46 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2016, 06:48:27 AM »
hey Dennis:

compare the AJ plans to your original plans.  I think the AJ plans had the long panel on the inside (left) wing, but also had the lines going out the left panel...

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2016, 01:34:28 PM »
Scott,
Yes, the AJ kit is a challenge. If someone tries to build the Barnstomer from these plans you have to measure the wing panels carefully. The plans show a counter clockwise (normal) bellcrank and leadouts but what they evidently did was trace the original Andrews wing (which was set up for clockwise flight) and put the controls in the opposite wing from those plans. What they missed was that the inside wing (21 3/4" was suppose to be 3/4" longer than the outboard (22 1/2"). So when you layout your spars from these plans you actually mark and build it opposite from the plans.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2016, 01:37:28 PM »
Ty built one and flew it the last time we were out, so I'm hooked too. He installed the canopy the original way, 2 pieces of plastic stitched together. Picking up a Fox 35 50th anniversary for power.
Best Regards,
Bill

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Offline peabody

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2016, 02:07:16 PM »
John Miske once told me that the sheeting over the bellcrank was only under the fuselage......do the plans show that, or sheeting extended to the first ribs outside the fuselage?

Have fun!

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2016, 02:47:56 PM »
Dennis:  Not being smarter than the average bear, I had the wing half-built before I noticed that something didn't quite look right.   ???

Got out the tape-measure and then soundly cussed A.J.s for what they did.  mw~

It's all fixed now, but the plane still has a ways to go before it is done.  Getting off-track like that tends to create mental road-blocks and my interest curve swings elsewhere.  Maybe this winter?

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2016, 03:25:28 PM »
Dennis,

You're building a Barnstormer kit by AJ, correct?

Is Brodak's Barnstormer different?

Charles
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2016, 03:43:27 PM »
Rich,
You are right. The Trixter plans show sheeting to the first spar (not in the AJ plans) than a double rib under the fuse sides. Looks like he covered the wing before installing through the fuse. This seems a little weak. I think I will sheet the center ribs and cover before mounting the wing in the fuse. The Trixter plans also show built up stationary flaps that go through the fuse. The AJ plans show the flaps added external to the fuse. I will use the Trixter flaps. This is turning into a real building project, lots of stuff to correct. Here is the ribs with the lighting holes added.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2016, 03:58:21 PM »
Charles,
The Brodak kit is close to the AJ kit with one spar (positioned where the second Trixter plan spar is located ~ 3" back)and sheeting back to the spar with cap strips, full center sheeting and solid stationary flaps. I think the Brodak kit at least has the correct flap thickness (3/16" vs 1/4" in the AJ kit).

Best,   DennisT

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2016, 06:22:09 PM »
Charles,
The Brodak kit is close to the AJ kit with one spar (positioned where the second Trixter plan spar is located ~ 3" back)and sheeting back to the spar with cap strips, full center sheeting and solid stationary flaps. I think the Brodak kit at least has the correct flap thickness (3/16" vs 1/4" in the AJ kit).

Best,   DennisT

Dennis,

Thanks for the info.

Charles
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2016, 07:06:01 PM »
Guy's,
Here are the basic Trixter Barnstomer plans. Note it is set up for clockwise and this seems to be where the original AJ kit got messed up.

Now for the "box" cowl spinner I need to select a spinner size, I'm thinking 1 3/4" seems to be a popular size for this size ship (i.e. the Still Stuka) so I need to see how it will shape in from the width.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2016, 07:13:38 PM »
Dennis,

Can't you just build the wing upside down?

You had no interest in Brodak's Barnstormer kit?

Charles
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2016, 07:38:22 PM »
Charles,
In essence that's what you do with the controls exiting for counter clockwise flight. The reason I'm building the AJ Kit rather then the Brodak is I have had this AJ kit for 20 years (bought it when I first started into OTS). I just got around to building a new OTS ship and this has always been a ship I liked. I decided that to make it a little different then the ARF version I would do the "Box" version pictured in the old Trixter ads and on the kit box. Will do the sewn canopy just like the original. Lots of fun.

Best,   DennisT 

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2016, 07:55:16 PM »
Guys,
OK, got a late start on this build but am now starting to push ahead. One questions came up as I started on the wing. The AJ kit modified the leading edge from the original 1/4" sq to a flat plank kinda foam wing style. I am redoing the sheeting and spars to match the original with the sheeting ending at the first spar. There is a lot that is questionable in the AJ kit and I am not sure if the root and tip cords are correct. Does anyone have the original full size plans that you could measure the wing cord at the center and at the tips (include the fix flaps) and post it here.

Thanks,      DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2016, 07:26:14 AM »
Thanks Ty, that was what I wanted to confirm. The AJ kit does have the sheeted center, cap strips and sheet flaps. I am building to the original layout but will plant the center to the first rib (angled to be under the fuse) for a little extra strength. I also plan on building the flaps flat on the board full span and attaching to the TE. I think that it will work best to cover the wing then mount it as a unit into the fuse. I am pondering what to cover with, silk or tinted polyspan. My concern is the built up flaps need a strong covering so they don't flex. I like silk it has held up well on my El Diablo but the poly is very strong.

What size bellcrank did you use? What size/shape tank did you use?  I did a 4" in the El D and it is pretty good. One other thing, the mounts are shown as 1/2" x 1/2", I normally use 3/8" x 1/2" with the cross grain balsa between (Windy ST 60 style). I also intend to do the close nose with a 1 3/4" spinner faired in. I will do the sewn canopy and a little detail in the cockpit. Hope to hit around 32 oz with the Fox 35 & muffler.

Best,   DennisT

 

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2016, 09:17:18 AM »
Dennis,

PLEASE!!!!  Make the original flaps and the stitched canopy. Without those, it is not a Barnstormer.  

Attached is a picture of the 'Stormer I built for the very first OTS contest.  John Miske didn't mind that I extended the center sheeting some. In fact, I would highly recommend doing that since it has no effect on the aerodynamics. The picture was apparently from a slide and was printed reversed in Model Airplane News.... Gee..... they used to cover Control line

My Barnstormer used Banner wheels that are very rare today.  Wheel pants would also dress up the airplane and would be legal since they to not change the aerodynamics of the airplane, and some were dressed up that way in the yesteryear..

Adding cap strips and solid flaps, and bubble canopies make the airplane a fraud.

I am glad that you will make the faired-in nose and spinner as on the box. I talked to John Miske about doing that and he said that he would love to see it. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to build another Barnstormed that way. I built the Curtiss Swift in his honor instead.

There are other ways to strengthen the wing. You can make a D-tube type spar in-between the main spars , or shear webs that are completely invisible.

Great project,, keep up the good work.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 05:51:48 PM »
Dennis,

Now you have me interested in a Barnstormer.  HB~>

I worked in a hobby shop after school, and I believe I mentioned this before. I used to build kits on the counter between customers.

I actually started building the Barnstormer. I don't remember anything about stiching a canopy, but this one had a bubble canopy. I wasn't driving yet so it was probably 1962. A guess.

Brodak's kit is a consideration. Looks like Brodaks Barnstormer's ribs can allow for a rounder LE? Looks that way?

Also, and it's probably the angle of the photo, but are Brodack's ribs a tad thicker?

Finding an original Barnstormer kit, would probably be the ticket?

Would anyone like to give one up? I didn't think so.  LL~

Charles
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2016, 12:34:16 PM »
Dennis,

Now you have me interested in a Barnstormer.  HB~>

I worked in a hobby shop after school, and I believe I mentioned this before. I used to build kits on the counter between customers.

I actually started building the Barnstormer. I don't remember anything about stiching a canopy, but this one had a bubble canopy. I wasn't driving yet so it was probably 1962. A guess.

Brodak's kit is a consideration. Looks like Brodaks Barnstormer's ribs can allow for a rounder LE? Looks that way?

Also, and it's probably the angle of the photo, but are Brodack's ribs a tad thicker?

Finding an original Barnstormer kit, would probably be the ticket?

Would anyone like to give one up? I didn't think so.  LL~

Charles



You mean like this???

Larry Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2016, 01:06:35 PM »
Larry,
Yes, that's the version I have started to build, complete with the spinner nose, stitched canopy and built up fixed flaps and Fox 35 (maybe a 4 bolt head one if I can get a clean muffler install, don't like the hose clamp approach). I may do the box paint job if I can figure out the colors (looks like red and black trim, not sure about the base).

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2016, 01:14:11 PM »
Ty,
Good observation, I never looked at that plan for the labeling. The parts in the kit are correct both elevator and stab are solid sheet. Hey, at least they got the Fin and Rudder right.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2016, 03:03:39 PM »
Dennis,

Glad to hear that you are building a true Barnstormer! It should really look great with the spinner faired in like the box picture.

There is probably nothing wrong if you have a tail wheel, but mine had a wire skid in the sub rudder as on the original plans.

The sand cast Fox would be great with a Champion VG2 glow plug.

My Curtiss Swift has an early Veco .31 and will use a Champion plug for contests.  Marvin Denny gave me a couple Champ plugs from his famous "junk Box" before he passed. Like John Miske, Marvin was one of the great ones.

The Barnstormer flies as good as any Old Timer. You will really like yours.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2016, 06:20:32 PM »
My ol' Dad flew a Barnstormer in the vacant lot(s) next to our house in Winchester, TN, circa 1950-51. It had an O&R .29 glow in it, and was pretty fast IMO. I can still envision the wing blowing off during a loop...it happened twice, but wasn't repaired twice. I was 5 or 6 at the most.

I was going to mention the stabalizer snafu and the canopy fubar, but now I don't have to! I have the Golden State kit...and my brother probably has the one I had sent to him, also. Fox .35's for both. He says his allergies prevent him from building wood stuff. Dust masks are not allowed in California?  y1 Steve
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2016, 07:23:34 AM »
Well hurricane Mathew is got us all buttoned up down here is S FL. I had to move some stuff into my shop but have a whole side of the building board open. Now that the shutters are up and all the outdoor stuff is secure I hope to settle into a few days of building on the Barnstormer. I plan on building the fuse so I can position the center ribs under the sides. Will cut out a 1/4" doubler rib to have some wiggle room for final alignment. With this arrangement I assume you complete the wing, cover it then install in the fuse. will add some gussets on the inside around the LE. Should get a lot done if Mathew stays off shore as it goes by. If not will be doing lots of cleanup.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Joe Connelly

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2016, 01:42:37 PM »
Larry,
Yes, that's the version I have started to build, complete with the spinner nose, stitched canopy and built up fixed flaps and Fox 35 (maybe a 4 bolt head one if I can get a clean muffler install, don't like the hose clamp approach). I may do the box paint job if I can figure out the colors (looks like red and black trim, not sure about the base).

Best,    DennisT

I built an original Gullows kit somewhere around 1952 when I was a kid. I loved the look of the built up flaps but when I painted mine and the dope started tautening the silkspan, I got some unbelievable warps in them. What did you guys do to avoid getting those warps?

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2016, 03:19:59 PM »
Use Polyspan! Might be good to assemble the flaps with epoxy, too. And of course, low-shrink dope for the finish.  D>K Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2016, 03:50:53 PM »
The original Barnstormer stitched canopy can be a pain getting it to look right.  I thought about it for a while, and then decided to carve a canopy from blue foam (easy to sand).  Then, the 2 canopy pieces can be accurately cut out using the mold as a pattern.  After carefully measuring and  punching the holes (use a sharpened piece of brass tubing), the canopy is stitched together ON the foam mold.  Little, if any, trimming is necessary if assembled on the mold.  Of course, the foam mold is then discarded.

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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2016, 05:28:38 PM »
Floyd,
You didn't happen to make a flat pattern of the finished shape before you stitched it that you could share? Is the pattern shown on the AJ kit plans close?

In the AJ kit you really do a lot of hand work. All the formers are just printed on a sheet of balsa, most are the wrong grain direction (will add cross braces). Got them all cut out and the top sheeting pieces today and outlined the nose doubler for the shaped 1 1/2" spinner. Once hurricane Mathew goes by if we still have power will work on the motor mounts and cross block.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2016, 04:02:24 PM »
I've managed to get the motor mount crutch build and need to decide on the spinner size. At first I thought a 1 1/2" was what I would use but I found a box of Froom spinners that I purchased a while back off eBay and have a choice of 1 3/4" and 2" (both needle nose and standard). When I rough fit the fuse sides with the mount and position the engine either can fit. The 2" seems a little large so I'm leaning for toward the 1 3/4". Anyone every see the "box" version of this ship? Seems that the smaller size was popular back then (the Still Stuka used a 1 3/4"). Should look good with a polished Froom on the nose.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2016, 05:22:23 PM »
Nice job Ty. Hope mine comes out as good.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Building season in FL, new OTS ride - Barnstormer
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2016, 09:26:02 PM »
Nice job Ty. Hope mine comes out as good.

Best,   DennisT

It flies excellent old time stunt, at least with Ty at the controls.
Best Regards,
Bill

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