Building Board

[Dick Pacini]

I was wandering around Lowes the other day, getting ideas.  I looked at the melamine shelves they had, which have been recommended by many here.  My thoughts are that when I mount my CLC wing and fuselage jigs, I would use those.

In the meantime, I was looking for a building board that was flat.  Lo and behold, I was in the lumber aisle and saw exactly what I wanted.  An oak stair tread that was a full inch thick.  It measures 1"X 11.5"X 48" and cost $23.96.  It was pretty flat and true.

Today, I took it to a cabinet shop and had it planed and sanded, just to be sure.  I plan on hitting it with several coats of water base polyurethane varnish, sanding lightly in between coats.  That should keep it sealed against moisture. 

[Steve Helmick]

My benchtop is a solid core door, with a glass coffee table top on it. The door is shimmed and levelled with a machine leveling level. One corner is broken off the glass, but it's a trivial deal, and it's still there, loosely. I haven't seen it in awhile, however. The benchtop, that is.  Steve

[peabody]

Glass is the answer...
Bob Hunt has a video where he shows how to level a glass top on a building board...
Bob used playing cards in the example....and measured a bunch of times....
Keep checking, because wood or composites will wrap due to humidity....
Have fun
Peabody

[Dick Pacini]

I read Bob's article about his shop and it is impressive.  I believe glass has its place, as do hardwood and melamine surfaces.  I don't believe one surface can meet all the needs of the modeler.  I will eventually have all three, but for now, I need a quick and dirty portable surface to align a Brodak ARF P40 on.  The oak plank seemed to be a good investment.

[FLOYD CARTER]

My glass building board isn't very large, (12" X 30") but it's FLAT!  It is 3/8" thick, so I don't bother trying to shim it one way or the other.  Hey, we're talking a few thou either way, and most models (mine, anyway) don't care if they are off by a couple thou.

Floyd

[proparc]

Windy has a video where he goes step by step shimming and leveling his glass top table at the beginning of the building season. Deep inside the world of world class stunt building. Great stuff

[George]

I also have a plate glass surface, but I have never leveled it...but then I'm not world class either. I know it needs to be flat, not sure about level...unless you are trimming it to that surface also.

The most unique building surface I ever read about was when one of Wendy's friends brought him a tombstone (defective and unused, I assume). They hustled it into his shop, with great effort, if I remember correctly. I have no idea if he still uses it.

George

[kenneth cook]

      I'm just curious as why level is always mentioned. Straight is the keyword here. Yes, its nice to have a table thats spot on level but I truly can't see why thats necessary. As a carpenter we use lasers all the time and I used it for my table but that was just for simplicity. When I build a wing I check the table for straight and twists not for level. I check it every now and again. We use these fibre shims on a daily basis which are very similar to the old red washers that the Perfect bellcranks had in them. We purchase these by the hundreds and they're typically 1/64 and 1/32. We now get them in a brown fibre material which is 1/16th. I used these to shim the glass. I more or less laid  the glass on table finding the highest point placed a card vertically on the table and marked the laser line with a drafting pencil. I now have a register to use and I would shim the corners first to this register then check the middle. Mine is 1/2 glass and its on top of a mdf base screwed to a 2x4 frame. Since I had this equipment on hand its a nice luxury. We also use a string line for ceiling work known as jet line. This line is very smooth and fine with little stretch and not fuzzy like thread. This could've been taped to each corner with a shim between it and the glass. The glass could be shimmed to the line using the same thickness shim to check the clearance under the line.  Then the string could be crisscrossed from corner to corner and check the X shimming until the two lines touch. Simplicity is often disregarded. The wing can be built straight and true on a surface thats ultimately straight even though the entire table isn't level. Like we say at work, you can hang a door in an opening thats not plumb as long as the jambs are parallel and the head is square to the jamb. Ken

[Steve Helmick]

Incidence Meters work off gravity. If your benchtop is level, then you can use your incidence meters in conjunction with it.  Steve

[Dwayne]

Kenneth: I've always wonderd the same thing.
Steve: Good answer
Also I assume those using glass are also using building jigs as you can't pin anything down, I don't have any jigs so I use a door and a sheet of drywall. 

[Bill Little]

Kenneth: I've always wonderd the same thing.
Steve: Good answer
Also I assume those using glass are also using building jigs as you can't pin anything down, I don't have any jigs so I use a door and a sheet of drywall. 

Hi Dwayne,

I use thin CA to *pin* parts to my 3/8ths glass bench top, which I made sure was flat.  It is also level because the actual table is an old pool table..  And a fuselage jig made by Byron Barker for fuselage assembly. 

I use 3/8ths tube for most wings and home made uprights.  The uprights can be tacked to the glass.

Byron's jig is made from steel tubing and very thick aluminum plate with machined aluminum uprights anchored with 3/8ths bolts and nuts.  it is pretty indestructible.

Big Bear

[kenneth cook]

      Steve, I concur with your statement. I've never used one but then again, I'm flying sport models mainly. I've always questioned the practice of those that use a torpedo level when doing certain drilling operations. I see this in certain pictures and its only valid assuming your equipment has been leveled and plumbed accordingly. For those that questioned the ability to pin while using glass, I found a product that works well. I have to do a little more research to find out what the products name actually is. We've used it on several occasions and I'm told its quite expensive. Its referred to as Homasote, but thats really a manufacturers name for several types of exterior sheathing products. This particular product is mainly used in interior use as its not waterproof. Its like a condensed paper product grey in color and smooth both sides. It takes pins like a cork product but with the ability to stay in . In fact once pushed in with your fingers it sometimes requires pliers to remove. Its for the most part self healing so to speak as well. I just lay this product over the glass using a couple of silicon dots to hold it down. I used a couple of pea sized dots of hot glue in conjuction with the silicone to hold it to the table. The hot glue sets fasts keeping it in place until the silicone sets. When I've had glue on the sheet I've used my t-bar sander to dress the sheet prior to using it again. Ken

[Tom Luciano]

My bench is framed with laminated 2x4's and a 4X8 sheet of homasote. My father has been building on the same for 45 years!
I definetly like the glass gig though.
Tom

[Larry Cunningham]

You can usually find a "blem" solid core door for a very reasonable price. The thicker glass is more expensive, but look around at the used furniture stores for a table top. Again, some scratches and blemishes may not hurt.

I have a 3/8" thick, 158 pound glass table top, and I don't worry about shimming it. I can't detect any warps!

I also use my favorite adhesive, thin CA to tack parts to the glass surface. It all cleans up with a razor blade, however, in at least one case, the CA dab chipped the glass surface. ;-(

Overall, however, glass is a superior building surface IMO.

Now, if I would only BUILD something on it!

L.

"All creative people want to do the unexpected." -Hedy Lamarr

[proparc]

Something not mentioned here is granite. Granted I don't suggest you turn into a grave robber like Windy and his "gang",(boy-that New Jersey group) but, a honed piece of 3 centimeter kitchen countertop granite, may be able able to take care of your business.  

[Dick Pacini]

Yes, granite is a possibility and a granite supplier is within a couple of miles away.

Still, I am looking for the following:

A flat, straight surface that can be stuck with T-pins. (oak stair tread)

Two flat, straight surfaces to allow aluminum jigs to be screwed down (fuselage and wing jigs)


I don't see how the granite or the glass could replace the plank or the melamine.  Yes, a section of drywall or homasote could be placed over the glass or granite and pins would be no problem.

I know there are those who use weights and clamps instead of pins with success.  There are many ways to tame the beast.

BTW, I remember building 1/2A's in my hand and eyeballing for alignment.  

My first Nobler was built on the dining room table.
 
All around 1958/59. They all flew, to some extent.

[Neville Legg]

I use an old A0 drawing, the one I have is soft pine (I think?) has perfect straight grain all the way, and stiffening members on the back.
They are redundant now that CAD is used in most drawing offices, and they are being given away if you go and collect them.

Cheers

[Brian Massey]

I haven't seen anyone mention drywall . . . I have a friend in the construction business and he swears that there is nothing flatter and truer that sheetrock.

I'm in the process of putting together a building board which will be placed on a table made of 2x4's and 4x4's with a 4x8 top of 3/4 inch. On that I'll lay a 2x7 foot 1 inch thick piece of melamine left over from and old desk; then a sheet of 3/8 inch glass and then the sheetrock. It may be overkill, but oh well.

Brian

[Dick Pacini]

I mentioned drywall in post #15.

[John Castle]

I have to admit I am intrigued by a glass top but am a bit confused about the particulars of how to actually build on one. I've always build with pins and a ceiling tile. Does anybody know of a good tutorial on how to build on glass? Do you put the plans under it? How do you hold things in place? etc.

Thanks,
John

[Dwayne]

I mentioned drywall in post #15.

So did I

[jim gilmore]

Tackk  gluing a few things a lots of weights ?

[Michael Massey]

Sheet rock and glass are all flat, but flexible.  That means if the surface on which it is to be placed has any warp, bend, etc, the sheet rock or glass will follow suit.  I don't have the answer but whatever you start with needs to be flat, not necessarily level.  Level would certainly make life easier because the level "bubble" can then be the standard.  Flat, however, is critical.  In theory, you could build a flat wing on a work surface that has a significant "slope" as long as it is FLAT. 

Personally I am using a 3/4" piece of plywood, about 18" by 60".  I have that covered by tongue and groove 3/4" oak (left over from some hardwood floors) that is "stapled" to the plywood.  That combination seems to maintain FLAT.  I put that on my "relatively" flat and level work bench.  My work bench seems to be fairly flat with a very slight lack of level but the oak/plywood work surface compensates and maintains a flat working surface.  If I wasn't so cheap, I would consider a piece of "scrap" granite to place my glass or sheetrock on to do the building.  Maybe after I win the lottery...

[George]

I have to admit I am intrigued by a glass top but am a bit confused about the particulars of how to actually build on one. I've always build with pins and a ceiling tile. Does anybody know of a good tutorial on how to build on glass? Do you put the plans under it? How do you hold things in place? etc.

Thanks,
John

I have this info on a Windy tape. I THINK it was on the one titled "Cardinal Wing Jig". I think I'll watch that tape again, so I'll report back.

In the mean time, you might give Windy a call. He may have it better illustrated elsewhere.

Basicly he put paper between the glass and jig and CA'd it to the glass. The paper was to facilitate removal.

George

[Brian Massey]

Dick and Dwayne; Oops, I reread the post; yea, you guys beat me to the drywall.

As for being flat; the drywall will rest on 3/8" glass which will rest on 1" melamine which will rest on 3/4" osb. That will all be shimmed "level" with the playing card trick mentioned above. The entire "board" will be 2 5/8 inches thick; hopefully the working should remain about as flat as I need. Like Mike, the granite would be nice. We have a quarry about 15 miles from the house that supplies all the granite used by the Federal Gov. for monuments. When I get back home I think it might be worth seeing what they charge for "scrap".

Brian

[Bill Little]

I have to admit I am intrigued by a glass top but am a bit confused about the particulars of how to actually build on one. I've always build with pins and a ceiling tile. Does anybody know of a good tutorial on how to build on glass? Do you put the plans under it? How do you hold things in place? etc.

Thanks,
John

Hi John,

I use a erasable pen to draw everything out on the glass.  I use thin CA to tack everything to the glass.  it works just like pins.  I have been building almost everything on my glass top for the 15-20 years.  In the thread I started in the Classic section, I have an I-Beam model set up on the glass table.

I have never seen a tutorial about this, but is is only different, in my eyes, in that you tack glue with thin CA instead of using pins.  A razor blade popped off the pieces, no problem.  Just use a piece of the tiny tube, or some other *dispenser*, for tacking.  Too much CA makes parts a pain to get off.

Big Bear

[John Castle]

That sounds simple enough....Thanks

[Dick Pacini]

Hi John,

I use a erasable pen to draw everything out on the glass.  I use thin CA to tack everything to the glass.  it works just like pins.  I have been building almost everything on my glass top for the 15-20 years.  In the thread I started in the Classic section, I have an I-Beam model set up on the glass table.

I have never seen a tutorial about this, but is is only different, in my eyes, in that you tack glue with thin CA instead of using pins.  A razor blade popped off the pieces, no problem.  Just use a piece of the tiny tube, or some other *dispenser*, for tacking.  Too much CA makes parts a pain to get off.

Big Bear

Bill, have you ever used aluminum jigs glued to the glass?

[FLOYD CARTER]

There seems to be a tendency to be a little picky here!  I fail to see any adverse consequences if your wing or fuselage is off by a few thou due to your building board not being perfectly flat.  We all know that these planes usually seem to warp or twist during covering, doping, or spraying, or just after elapsed time when things start to relax and un-stress.  So all that effort levelling and straightening your building board is mostly for naught!  Real trimming and correcting warps begins after the first flight--and after a hundred flights, it's often time to again remove warps.

Floyd

[Brian Massey]

--and after a hundred flights, it's often time to again remove warps.

Floyd

Do planes really last that long?

Brian

[proparc]

Hi John,

I use a erasable pen to draw everything out on the glass.  I use thin CA to tack everything to the glass.  it works just like pins.  I have been building almost everything on my glass top for the 15-20 years.  In the thread I started in the Classic section, I have an I-Beam model set up on the glass table.


Big Bear

This is also Windy's technique.

[Bill Little]

Bill, have you ever used aluminum jigs glued to the glass?

HI Dick,

Never used those glued to my glass top.  I would be careful in that if too much glue was used, it could possibly chip out the glass when you removed them.   It takes very little CA to tack things down, that's why I use the tiny tubing in the end of the bottle.

Bill

[Jim Snelson]

Dick,

Keep in mind since you are setting up this building board to use the CLC wing jigs you don't need a perfect surface like glass since the straight edge you are going to line up the lower blocks with is going to be your true surface. Don't over think this as that is the beauty of the jigs. I am not saying it can be a warped up piece of wood but it soulds like the board you already purchased and surfaced is more than adequate for the jigs to be mounted to.

Jim Snelson
www.clcentral.com

[Brett Buck]

HI Dick,

Never used those glued to my glass top.  I would be careful in that if too much glue was used, it could possibly chip out the glass when you removed them.   It takes very little CA to tack things down, that's why I use the tiny tubing in the end of the bottle.

  In fact, I might have seen exactly that on a noted master craftsman's glass tabletop...

   Brett

[Brett Buck]

  We all know that these planes usually seem to warp or twist during covering, doping, or spraying, or just after elapsed time when things start to relax and un-stress. 

    Thats generally right, and a lot of the real innovation over the recent years in the construction has been to ensure it does as little of that as possible. You just can't afford to permit significant warping, etc, after you build it, or from day to day in terms of temperature, humidity, etc. My buddies and I  have had endless problems with this at times, and I have taken pretty extensive measures to design so that doesn't happen, even if it costs me a fair bit of weight. The airplane absolutely *has to* stay in alignment and stay in trim, or the consistency goes out the window.

    Brett

[john e. holliday]

Dick,

Keep in mind since you are setting up this building board to use the CLC wing jigs you don't need a perfect surface like glass since the straight edge you are going to line up the lower blocks with is going to be your true surface. Don't over think this as that is the beauty of the jigs. I am not saying it can be a warped up piece of wood but it soulds like the board you already purchased and surfaced is more than adequate for the jigs to be mounted to.

Jim Snelson
www.clcentral.com

Jim,  That is the reason I now have a metal four foot level to line your jig up with.   As stted if the bottom blocks are lined up and not changed it will stay that way.  I have several planes done on the jig.   

[jim gilmore]

I did not read eachh and every post but here is why level is the correct term.
Glues are fluid. Ad if you place parts on a fluid and give them a chance they will flow. Imagin you place those nice flat parts ontop of other nice flat parts and seewhat happens when they dry over time ? Especiall if your using 45 min epoxy. Funny it looked perfect when you started but now it's shifted. Sure clamping will stop it but not every thing can be clamped.