Builder of model rule interpretation

[Matt Brown]

I was fortunate enough to win Intermediate on Sunday and I am going to fly Advanced tomorrow. I flew a Brodak SV11 arf in Intermediate. I’m not a gifted builder but I know if I’m going to compete in Advanced I need to build something. Several weeks ago I crashed my primary SV11 arf. The wing broke in half and fuse was mangled.
The way I read the rule I could repair that broken wing, build myself a new fuse and add the wing and old stab/elevators and would be perfectly legitimate per the rules. Is this correct?
Assuming this is acceptable, what is acceptable for finishing? I figured I’d strip the wing and tail and recover with polyspan or similar. Is it acceptable for me to get someone else to do the paint prep and painting? I have zero artistic ability and even less ability with any type of paint applicator.
In a way I feel like that would be cheating because I didn’t do it but at the same time, is it fair for those of similarly skilled to compete with maybe someone who is a professional artist or custom car painter in their non-modeling life?

What are the thoughts on these questions?

Thanks, Matt

[Ken Culbertson]

I just went through this decision process when I resumed flying in 2017.  I elected to goose egg the appearance points and fly the ARF as is till I built my own.  I was told by those who know that I could take the wing from the ARF build my own fuselage.  Wings are commonly purchased prefab.  In fact I would bet that 1/2 of the Expert ships at the Nats have a wing from somebody else in them.  As for the finish, I think you are out of luck.  You got to do that yourself.  I suck at it too but I have learned enough to get by.  Don't worry too much about the finish.  Just learn to make it smooth and don't try and put too exotic a design on it and you will be just fine till you hit the very upper reaches of Expert. 

Good luck - Ken

[Trostle]

(Clip)

Wings are commonly purchased prefab.  In fact I would bet that 1/2 of the Expert ships at the Nats have a wing from somebody else in them.  As for the finish, I think you are out of luck.  You got to do that yourself.  I suck at it too but I have learned enough to get by.  Don't worry too much about the finish.  Just learn to make it smooth and don't try and put too exotic a design on it and you will be just fine till you hit the very upper reaches of Expert. 

Good luck - Ken

Ken,

Basically, you are giving good advice to someone who is just getting into building and flying in competition.

However, you might want to review the Builder of Model rule in the Control Line Precision Aerobatics rule book.  A prefabricated wing from whatever source is allowed by the rule.  There are some other specifics about what is and is not allowed regarding the BOM of a model used in our competition.  Also, there are specifics given regarding the finish.

This rule applies to models that are subjected for appearance points.  The Skill Classes do not require the BOM, so there are no appearance  points if the pilot did not build the model but still can fly in competition.  To gain appearance points, the BOM rule applies.  The only events where the BOM is required are the age categories  (Jr, Sr, and Open) which any more is only flown at the Nats.

Some local contests do not give appearance points and have no BOM requirement.

Look at Paragraph 2.1 Builder of Model

https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/CL%20Precision%20Aerobatics%202019-2020.pdf

Keith

[Matt Brown]

I should probably clarify some points. I’m 60 years old and I painted my first Ringmaster somewhere around 1972. It was ugly, finish-wise. Aerogloss Navy Blue applied with a brush. No filler and limited sanding. Soon after that, I learned of Monokote and have not painted another model since!
I have built and flown airplanes of some kind all my life but I was never that concerned with appearance. Actually, I wanted them to look nice, I just didn’t have the artistic eye to do decent schemes. I’ve learned over the years that no matter how careful you are with film covered planes, the fuel eventually causes issues.
For the sake of durability, I feel like I have to have a painted finish.
While I do know that the Nats is about the only contest where the BOM would apply, the Nats is an important one to me. While I know time isn’t on my side, my goal is to win Advanced at the Nats and at least fly one year in Open or Expert, whichever it is.
I’m undecided on electric or glow power. The SV11 I crashed last month was electric and the one I’m flying this week is glow. I couldn’t have won with the electric SV11. The glow flew much better but I’ve talked with a few other electric flyers and maybe my esc wasn’t setup as good as it could have been.

Matt

[Will Hinton]

Matt, I have been back into stunt since 1990, and in the mid '90's started using Monokote exclusively.  I have moved through intermediate, then advanced, and was moving up to expert when my then wife took ill and I quit flying.  If you build the model and do iron on, you'll get SOME appearance points if the contest is giving them.
As far as fuel causing problems, be very picky about your application and that will be a minimum.  My last ship, which is still usable and the one I will use if I start back into the sport, was my weapon of choice for five years with no problems.  The last year I flew at the nats I got 8 points for the finish if I remember right.

[Tim Wescott]

I was fortunate enough to win Intermediate on Sunday and I am going to fly Advanced tomorrow. I flew a Brodak SV11 arf in Intermediate. I’m not a gifted builder but I know if I’m going to compete in Advanced I need to build something. Several weeks ago I crashed my primary SV11 arf. The wing broke in half and fuse was mangled.
The way I read the rule I could repair that broken wing, build myself a new fuse and add the wing and old stab/elevators and would be perfectly legitimate per the rules. Is this correct?
Assuming this is acceptable, what is acceptable for finishing? I figured I’d strip the wing and tail and recover with polyspan or similar. Is it acceptable for me to get someone else to do the paint prep and painting? I have zero artistic ability and even less ability with any type of paint applicator.
In a way I feel like that would be cheating because I didn’t do it but at the same time, is it fair for those of similarly skilled to compete with maybe someone who is a professional artist or custom car painter in their non-modeling life?

What are the thoughts on these questions?

Thanks, Matt

Read the rules carefully.  They're right here on the website, sitting right next to all the other rules.  As far as I'm concerned, reading the rulz is just necessary homework to seriously competing. 

Two pitfalls that I see for you (but by no means all the available pitfalls) are (1) you need to apply the finish -- so no re-using old covering, and (2) you can use a prefab wing, but you have to install the control system.  I would not count taking the control system out and putting it back in as "installing your own".

Personally, I'd stick it back together, call it a "repaired ARF" and not claim any appearance points until I'd built one that I was sure met the letter of the rules.

[Ken Culbertson]

I would not count taking the control system out and putting it back in as "installing your own".

I would call that crazy.  I have never seen an ARF that I would not have replaced the controls.

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

  Hi Matt;
   You don't have to have a completely painted model to qualify for appearance points. Iron on coverings are acceptable. Either do the whole model that way, or cover the wings and do a rattle can paint job on the fuselage. If done carefully, this can look quite nice. You won't get front row points, but you will get something for the effort. Do a search here on the forums for Allen Brickhaus' finishing methods along these lines. he detailed it in several of his model articles, one of them being the Beguine Mustang Cleveland racer that was published in Flying Models, and he also did it in a couple of others. It's basically iron on covering on the wings and horizontal tail surfaces, maybe the vertical, and a thinned epoxy finish on the solid balsa parts followed with rattle can paint applied sparingly. Lots of sanding required on the epoxy but if you are careful can be kept to a minimum. It is fairly quick and easy, but like anything else, how much effort you put in it reflects in the outcome. This is an easy way to start learning how to do nice finishes, and no, you are NOT too old to learn those skills! All it takes is practice and some patience. Good luck with the project and your goals.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[M Spencer]

Just a few thoughts .

DEPENDS on the BUDJET ! .

Assume pre done Foam Wings ( and Tails ) are legit , as theyve been going for years , and used by many . for DECADES even.

Then theres many suppliers doing Pre Built Wings etc and Models .

Look at the posts on the Yatsenkos eligability / legitimacy = Thatll get you into the ballpark .

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FINISHING .

The Auto spray guns are too %#@*! crude . You need a GOOD ' Touch Up ' gun . Top gravity paint canister ( so you can tip it on shoes / floor / bench / model . )
for acceptable top line results.

UNLESS you use Dupli Colour spray cans , warmed .The Bigg 20 ? ouce ones work out way cheaper .

Claus Maikus always went this way. Along with half the rest of the planet . The Auto Clear duplicolour , after hardning a few weeks - the longer the better ( on anything )
gets pretty good fuel resistance. But use Two Pot To Finish inside engine bay & Cowl . And maybe use a heat gun there to get it to flow out .

--    --      --    --

Bob Baron WON Concours ( amougst others ) with Mono cote or whatever . Will throw you the link to a tape of him with a few tips, another time .

-------------------------------

Use a 5 ton CONTROL SYSTEM . and 10 ton capeability LEADOUTS . Or something approaching that.

You want NO FLEX . and a few seasons minimum DURABILITY and NO SLOP , not a iota - bellcrank to flaps . Well Lubed . Ive never used a balljoint or quicklink .
If accessable good balljoints seem de riguer . Or has that changed . They say Electric Controls gotta be real free with No Engine Vibes to free them off .

===============================

So its all pretty basic. Look at the Yatsenko tripe for level of pre fab acceptable .

Why dont you grab a top line plane second hand, for a bench mark on wottleshedo , and practise / club stuff . Not many people worry at  club level apparently .

Somrthing with clean lines build lighter , or at least a lot quicker , than real fancy hi faluteing dream planes .

The Geo Bolt Lost Foam wings real popular , in the late Gieske Ships and with many others . Patternmasters and derivatives ( like the Time Machine )
are durable and pretty hot , Dixon Does Foam Wings'n stuff . And a re style is a matter of choice .

A lot of the modern kits are top notch , just about fall together. are good value & very comprehensive .

If youve got a good flat bench , some dressed sticks from the builders supplies as T E packers , a few weights , some aliphatic glue , pre block sand sheets before fitting
Itd be pretty straightforward . But a Dixo Foam wing Cheapie'd be a better First Step . In not as many Hurdles . And get a season out of it , while you build your masterpiece .

[M Spencer]

Actually ,  if you like the S V , sticking to that designer , if youre not on a designing trip , would make sense .


THeyre like cars or motorcycles , or Boats Even .
Everyone knows Nortons are faster , but Triumphs will blow them off , and are more durable . And I used to think shaking your fillings out was a figure of speach .
But it was rough roads and firm suspension . Comparisons can co on ad infinitum .

If your ' With It ' and more than happy with them , set up for that with templates , cradles and jigs etc . And try'n bludge a flight on Randys while youre there . 

[fred cesquim]

just out of curiosity, why a monokoted/painted wing model "cannot" reach a great score on finish if surpasses a doped/painted finish? just prejudice or there is a rule? on the last 5 years i have developed (what i think) the best finish mixing iron on and paint and although i know how to polyspan/dope i rather use monokote on wings as it´s way lighter and looks better finished than a doped model.
this plane is monokoted wing and painted fuse/wing colors.i see no reason to downgrade just because it was monokoted, it requires skills as much as a doped finish, just different skills.
in Brazil we do not have BOM rule, as most modellers are not interested on building anymore, hardly intereste in flying....
regards from south america

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

There was a transparent MonoKote covering job that did OK at Brodak's, if I got that right.

[Dwayne]

just out of curiosity, why a monokoted/painted wing model "cannot" reach a great score on finish if surpasses a doped/painted finish? just prejudice or there is a rule? on the last 5 years i have developed (what i think) the best finish mixing iron on and paint and although i know how to polyspan/dope i rather use monokote on wings as it´s way lighter and looks better finished than a doped model.
this plane is monokoted wing and painted fuse/wing colors.i see no reason to downgrade just because it was monokoted, it requires skills as much as a doped finish, just different skills.
in Brazil we do not have BOM rule, as most modellers are not interested on building anymore, hardly intereste in flying....
regards from south america

Nice, what are you using for ink lines?

[fred cesquim]

Nice, what are you using for ink lines?

thanks, it´s cheap india ink mixed white / black, rotring 0,5 pen
here´s grey ink lines over clear monokote, really brings life to the model

[Tim Wescott]

just out of curiosity, why a monokoted/painted wing model "cannot" reach a great score on finish if surpasses a doped/painted finish? just prejudice or there is a rule?

If someone could do a Monocoat/paint job that surpasses silkspan & paint, then it should win.

But ridges where 'coat overlaps, or where a decal is applied, is a flaw -- for that matter, ridges on a doped finish where a color was masked off and not smoothed into the surrounding paint is also a flaw.  Getting rid of the ridges in 'coat is way harder than with paint (in fact, I can't imagine how to do it without using paint).  And with a doped finish you can do lots of colors in your color scheme, and people that manage to do that while remaining tasteful get more points.

There are, absolutely and positively very good 'coat finishes that are better than bad, or even mediocre doped finishes.  You can do less work to get that very good 'coat finish than you would to get a very good doped finish, and I don't see that as a penalty.  But without going to extreme lengths, I just don't see how someone could do a 'coat finish that reaches the level of excellence that I see doped finishes reach.

Put a 'coat finished plane in front of me, and I will judge what I see -- and if it's a good 'coat finish with the seams put where they don't show badly, and where those seams that do show are dead straight and maybe even fit the color scheme, and I'll give you a good score.  If there's a crappy doped airplane at the same contest, I'll give you a better score than the doped airplane.  I'll never say "oh, that's Monocoat I won't give it more than X points" -- but I doubt anyone can pull off a 20 point finish with 'coat.

[Brett Buck]

just out of curiosity, why a monokoted/painted wing model "cannot" reach a great score on finish if surpasses a doped/painted finish? just prejudice or there is a rule? on the last 5 years i have developed (what i think) the best finish mixing iron on and paint and although i know how to polyspan/dope i rather use monokote on wings as it´s way lighter and looks better finished than a doped model.

   It can. There is no rule about what materials you use, anything is OK, it is strictly about the end result. I have been competitive for a NATs Top 10 with Monokote/paint airplanes and people have gotten 15-16 points in appearance judging. I also agree that the skill required is very high, in some ways it's more difficult, because even one mistake can be essentially irreparable without starting over.

  But, it probably won't. Not because of prejudice, but because it's very difficult to get it good enough to be competitive with others using paint. It's all through this and the other thread, there's talk about seams and how to hide transitions between paint and film, but paint doesn't have that problem.

      As I noted above, most people who have not seen one of these NATs front-row airplanes do not know how high the standards are, and we can tell you about it, but it won't easily convince you. Just like anything else, to fully appreciate the standards people are working to, you have to try competing with them for a while, and be willing to appreciate what other people are doing better.

   Don't let any of this dissuade you, the fact of the matter is, the appearance score is a small fraction of the total, and, the entire point of the event is to learn and improve. If you show up with a competitive Monokote airplane, I guarantee you will be not be at any significant disadvantage to any of your competitors outside the top 5 at the US nationals.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

. It's basically iron on covering on the wings and horizontal tail surfaces, maybe the vertical, and a thinned epoxy finish on the solid balsa parts followed with rattle can paint applied sparingly. Lots of sanding required on the epoxy but if you are careful can be kept to a minimum. It is fairly quick and easy, but like anything else, how much effort you put in it reflects in the outcome.

   Replace the epoxy and Rustoleum with KlassKote primer and colors, and you have a bulletproof system. I guess I understand the appeal of hardware-store materials, but the number of paint disasters I see with them is not promising.

    Brett

[Brent Williams]

To emphasize Brett's point that KlassKote epoxy paint and MonoKote can yield a very nice finish, I have attached a few pictures of Norm Whittle's Sultans.  MonoKote on the wings and tail and KlassKote on the fuselage. Of interest, is the picture of his plane in the expert lineup at the NWR.  He was very competitive when he was competing in control line, and wasn't just giving away free appearance points.  His planes were very nicely finished.

[Tim Wescott]

The thing you cannot tell from pictures, unless someone is spending a lot of effort to take them, is the level of perfection you see (or the tiny flaws, perhaps) when you get your eyeballs a foot away from an airplane.  Compared to the errors that I look for on doped finishes (at least at the Regionals, where I don't have a fellow judge wondering why I'm slowing things down), a typical overlapped Monocoat seam stands out like a sore thumb.

[Perry Rose]

What would be the cost of all the equipment and KlassKote needed to finish a Legacy 40 size plane be?? Including all the safety equipment. I see that KlassKote alone would be about $200.00. That's 3 color kits and reducer.

[Tim Wescott]

What would be the cost of all the equipment and KlassKote needed to finish a Legacy 40 size plane be?? Including all the safety equipment. I see that KlassKote alone would be about $200.00. That's 3 color kits and reducer.

That's why I went with hardware store materials.

   Replace the epoxy and Rustoleum with KlassKote primer and colors, and you have a bulletproof system. I guess I understand the appeal of hardware-store materials, but the number of paint disasters I see with them is not promising.

I did some experimentation, found a combination that worked, and throughout the process treated those hardware store materials with the same respect I'd give more expensive materials.

And the results were pretty good -- they weren't great, and I didn't expect great, but the worst "disaster" was a plane where the paint (Minwax Polycrylic) under the top coat was turning to goo because it's not alcohol-proof.  But that was acceptable to me at the time, and after that I switched to using Rustoleum primer, and solved that problem.

All along I intended to switch to 'span and dope when it came time to do a "serious" finish -- and now I'm there, and I'm using 'span and dope.

[Tim Wescott]

What would be the cost of all the equipment and KlassKote needed to finish a Legacy 40 size plane be?? Including all the safety equipment. I see that KlassKote alone would be about $200.00. That's 3 color kits and reducer.

How many Rustoleum spray bombs will pay for a cheap compressor and a yard-sale spray gun?  Because you'll want those anyway.

[Dave Hull]

Perry,

I think the retail price of the paint would be closer to $140 for your 3 color paint scheme using standard, not custom mix, colors, then add tax and shipping. That gets you three colors plus catalyst, and white primer and primer catalyst (all in 1/2 pt cans)  and then a quart of reducer. With this paint, you do not use much and it covers very well. You won't need 3 cans of catalyst. Buy more when that runs out.

If you are comparing paint quantities based on dope, then you need to reset the buy-ometer. You just don't need much of this. What is harder is (a) to set up a cup to handle a small amount of paint; and (b) to learn to stop laying it on after it has covered. Most times, I only need one coat.

A decent hobby use charcoal respirator is probably under $50. 3-M lists a organic vapor job for about $20. It has prefilter pads plus the charcoal cartridge. Paint outside. Then you can add a buck or two for some plastic drinking cups to mix your paint. Some stir sticks off your last popsicle. Masking tape and paper towels. But you'd need all that stuff for any paint, and some of it for just MonoKote....

I don't enjoy painting, but KlassKote makes it easy enough that I get it done.

Divot McSlow