2015 U.S. Team Trials Houston Texas

[john e. holliday]

Chris, that has to instill some confidence in your abilities when an icon of stunt will let you use one of his babies.   Billy has been one of my heroes of stunt since I first read about his first NATS win as a much younger kid. 

[Doug Moon]

I was totally impressed with Chris. His drive and want to excel is very apparent. I mentioned to him on Sunday that all he needs is another 3000 flights and he will perform with the best.

I look forward to seeing him at the next Team Trials with the drive, practice, and equipment to make the team. We need more like him to keep the US excellence in international competition going strong.

We need more "younger" pilot to stand up and show the want to excel, and the ability to take the place of the "older" pilots.

Matt C, Derek B, Doug M and others, how about it?

I am so flattered to be lumped in with the "younger" pilots.  You must have not noticed the gray in my beard and the extreme lack of hair on the top of my head!  

I tried this past weekend but it was not to be...

I need about 3000 more flights too, and another 3000 after that.

I did see some things this weekend that have me very intrigued to say the least.
1. The high powered electric systems, 6s and 5s, are putting out the ponies!!  Consistency is their game for sure. The trim setup is a different as well... But the path to that proper trim setup is the same.
2. A plane built in 1984 with older design theory was right in the hunt.  Thin wing, relatively sharp leading edge, wide chord, relatively shorter span, light weight, and it was a damn good flying plane!  Quick in the corner yet very stable.  Interesting....very interesting

Am I approaching stunt incorrectly now...??

[Randy Cuberly]

I am so flattered to be lumped in with the "younger" pilots.  You must have not noticed the gray in my beard and the extreme lack of hair on the top of my head!  

I tried this past weekend but it was not to be...

I need about 3000 more flights too, and another 3000 after that.

I did see some things this weekend that have me very intrigued to say the least.
1. The high powered electric systems, 6s and 5s, are putting out the ponies!!  Consistency is their game for sure. The trim setup is a different as well... But the path to that proper trim setup is the same.
2. A plane built in 1984 with older design theory was right in the hunt.  Thin wing, relatively sharp leading edge, wide chord, relatively shorter span, light weight, and it was a damn good flying plane!  Quick in the corner yet very stable.  Interesting....very interesting

Am I approaching stunt incorrectly now...??

Take a look at Billy's GeoXL.  It's a slightly larger later version of the Junar theme.  Mine (that was left at the field and disappeared) was by far the best flying stunter I've had.  I never understood why Bill didn't expand on that theme, or maybe he did but just hid it.  The Thunderbolt is actually very similar (I think the same basic wing and numbers).  If I had any sense I would build another and another and another one of them but I've never been accused of having any sense.

Randy Cuberly

[Paul Walker]

There might be a good debate topic:  do you fly according to the wind or do your best to deal with it and keep your maneuvers directly square out with the judges regardless?

In the final round, I watched David and Howard both get the 90 degree wind shift. They then moved their maneuvers 90 degrees to be in the wind correctly. The maneuvers were 90 degrees to the judges. I checked their scores and they basically didn't improve that round.

Then when it was my turn, the wind shifted at least 90 degrees once the wingover was completed, I chose to leave the maneuvers straight across from the judges, and fight it through all the maneuvers. It worked out as it turned out to be the high score of the competition.

This might answer the question, maybe.

[Dave_Trible]

Paul,  first I didn't get to congratulate you on your win... So congrats!! 
Your take on this would be my sense of what to do,  hard as it can be.  In lighter winds it's not too bad but on a real windy day pretty tough.  However stronger winds tend not to change direction suddenly like these were.  From the judges perspective what do you do?  You've only seen the elevations of the maneuver and nothing else.  Do I give it a great score?  A lousy score?  An average based on the other maneuvers you DID see.  Guess?  In 5 seconds I'd bet on a guess and likely lower that what the manuever was actually worth.  Then there is the 'what the?' factor that would detract for more than one maneuver.  In this there I looked over at the judges when the wind suddenly caused the 90 degree maneuver shift and they sort of looked at each other wondering what to do.  Good judging is very hard and these guys are to be thanked for doing the job.  Not much time to decide how to react when the unusual happens.  It seems most wise for the pilot to NOT do anything unexpected if possible. 

Dave

[john e. holliday]

How can you score a maneuver if you can't see the shape?   Maybe they might have gotten a better score on that particular maneuver if done across from the judges.  Only by knowing the pattern would know what next maneuver should be flown. 

[Tom Niebuhr]

Waiting for the judges to move a few times in shifting air could possibly put you short on fuel or electrons since you set up for the 7 min. time limit.

I think that I read a while ago that the European judges will not move..Paul can you help here... is that true?

[Paul Walker]

In FAI, the judges are allowed to move only a small amount. At the Team Trials they were positioned prior to the signal, and didn't move after that. Well, at least that's what I saw in the 3rd round of the finals. They were "tired" by then......as were the pilots!

[Trostle]

I think that I read a while ago that the European judges will not move.

From the F2B rules:

"Each competitor shall be allowed 3 minutes preparation time to enter the circle, ...to position the judges and to prepare his motor(s) for starting."

In another section on Judging:  

"Once an official flight has begun the judges may, or their own accord, change their original position, but such position change shall not exceed a maximum of 1/8 of a lap ahead of or behind their original position at the beginning of the respective official flight.  Judges shall only change position during the 1 1/2 intervening laps flown between manoeuvres and not while any manouevre is being flown."

In the several world championships I have observed and judged, this rule is firmly followed.  In fact, once the pilot has moved the judges to where he wants them, I have seldom ever seen the judges move after the beginning of the flight.  Sometime, one or two of them might shift slightly (within that +/- 1/8 lap) but not often.

Keith

[Doug Moon]

The judges were moving on some of the flights when it was needed.  But they did stick to the 1/8 of the circle rule.

[Igor Burger]

Congrats to dream team :- )))

[Igor Burger]

In the several world championships I have observed and judged, this rule is firmly followed.  In fact, once the pilot has moved the judges to where he wants them, I have seldom ever seen the judges move after the beginning of the flight.  Sometime, one or two of them might shift slightly (within that +/- 1/8 lap) but not often.

Well, most of ECh and many WCh are on places surrounded by trees or buildings and wind changes also during flight, so I do not think judges can run down and back so much. For exmaple last ECH I was so lucky that just before start wind turned opposite. I cannot imagine judges to run on opposite side of the circle and then back just for 2 or 3 figures :- )))

But we have 6 judges, they usually take almost that 1/8 arc, so if pilot moves his figures little bit, it is enough if only one judge changes his position from left most side to righ most and judges moved :- )))

[Igor Burger]

Regrading K factor. That question comes again and again. Yes we fly every flight the same and we do not choose figures, that is true. But K factor is not here to compensate difficulty of figure. As Keith already wrote it has historical reason, in past we had judged separate figures and since judges was not able to write so many points, figures were summed together including K factors. Simply if judge observed more, the K factor was also higher. The judge are not "counting" mistakes but simply say how much figures match definition. That is reason why we have aproximately the same mark for level flight and also for square eight, does not matter that in level flight I can do only one error while in square eight I certainly do many more. I think that US judges do it different, I saw it on my NATs score sheets, I got twice 40 points for reversed fligh, never happened with FAI judges.

However that all is only theory. The real reason why we wanted to keep K factors on last "rules cleaning" fas fact, that K factor EXPANDS differences on top places. The biggest problem of FAI system on small amount of circles When we must fly up to 100 flyers at once is, that in such larrge group we have differences often only fraction of point. We did analyze of several large contests and we found that K factor makes differences proportionally larger (in % not in absolute number). Simply said, good pilot will do complex figure much better then worse pilot compared to the difference on siple figure. So that is why K :- )))

[Paul Walker]

Congrats to dream team :- )))

Thanks Igor.  This is the third time this group is together. The first two times both netted team gold medals!!   :-))))

Long drive to TeamTrials. Still not home. This trip will be about 7000 miles total!  Includes trip to LA to get stuck in the closed I-5 due to mudslides. Long trip. 

[Dennis Adamisin]

CONGRATS to the team!

I did not see it (or missed it) did we select a Junior Team Member?

[Howard Rush]

I did not see it (or missed it) did we select a Junior Team Member?

American kids have more important things to do than to fly stunt.

[John Paris]

Howard,
That and just not wanting to commit seems to be keeping them away.  I would have thought it would be cool to go to Oz to fly but all of the building and practice must outweigh the thousands of dollars needed  to make the trip.
John

[Dave_Trible]

CONGRATS to the team!

I did not see it (or missed it) did we select a Junior Team Member?

Denny alas we had no Jr. entries.  I say we draft Sammy for the next cycle-before she ages out!

Dave

[Brett Buck]

Howard,
That and just not wanting to commit seems to be keeping them away.  I would have thought it would be cool to go to Oz to fly but all of the building and practice must outweigh the thousands of dollars needed  to make the trip.
John

   Also - the TT was during school.

    Brett

[Howard Rush]

   Also - the TT was during school.

As will be the world champs.  Good point.

[Tom_Fluker]

Also - the TT was during school.



That is something that needs to be considered for both the trials and W/Cs.  Obviously, it is a bit less of an issue with the trials since there is an option to travel in Thursday after school, practice Friday, contest on the weekend and home Sunday night.  For a W/Cs, it is at least a week - this one will be more.  Speaking from experience (it's been a long time, but I remember it clearly), that is a killer.  It hurts the school effort and the flying.

Tom

[Doug Moon]

Tom,

Thanks for all of your help on the TT weekend!! 

As far as the jr goes there is only a handful of jr CLPA fliers out there that can fly the full competitive pattern. 
From there how many of them have families that are willing and have the ability to build a take apart model for overseas travel?
Or have the means to by one? 
Have the time to take off for the trip?
Have the funds to cover the trip?

And of course school is an issue.  You can no longer take off school for 2 weeks at a time and just "make it up."  It just isn't that simple with all the attendance rules etc.

Once you really break it down we just don't have a very large pool of young fliers to choose from.  Is that bad?  I don't know, I see lots CL activity these days on the contests results and many of the names I have never heard of.  Not that I am anything special I just mean there is activity and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sustained growth.  Do the other countries have large pools of youth fliers?  Not sure.  But they certainly have access to models that more easily travel.  That is one massive hurdle covered right there.

The cost and time of the WCs makes this a borderline rich mans game.  Flying control line is not a kids game anymore and hasn't been for a very long time and never will be again.  That's just the way it is. Sure we have kids here and there and air venture and the joe nall expose tons and tons of kids to cl every year. How many continue?

I think too many see no jr from us at the WCs and think we are somehow dying off etc.. I don't think so.  The factors that go into competing have changed over the years and they are not conducive to including jr competitors.

[Randy Cuberly]

Tom,

Thanks for all of your help on the TT weekend!!  

As far as the jr goes there is only a handful of jr CLPA fliers out there that can fly the full competitive pattern.  
From there how many of them have families that are willing and have the ability to build a take apart model for overseas travel?
Or have the means to by one?  
Have the time to take off for the trip?
Have the funds to cover the trip?

And of course school is an issue.  You can no longer take off school for 2 weeks at a time and just "make it up."  It just isn't that simple with all the attendance rules etc.

Once you really break it down we just don't have a very large pool of young fliers to choose from.  Is that bad?  I don't know, I see lots CL activity these days on the contests results and many of the names I have never heard of.  Not that I am anything special I just mean there is activity and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sustained growth.  Do the other countries have large pools of youth fliers?  Not sure.  But they certainly have access to models that more easily travel.  That is one massive hurdle covered right there.

The cost and time of the WCs makes this a borderline rich mans game.  Flying control line is not a kids game anymore and hasn't been for a very long time and never will be again.  That's just the way it is. Sure we have kids here and there and air venture and the joe nall expose tons and tons of kids to cl every year. How many continue?

I think too many see no jr from us at the WCs and think we are somehow dying off etc.. I don't think so.  The factors that go into competing have changed over the years and they are not conducive to including jr competitors.

Doug,
I believe you're absolutely right about everything you wrote!

I also believe that the issue could be helped if WE made more of an effort to bid on WC's here in the US.  The last one here was quite a while ago, and we certainly have the resources to do more.  As it is the Europeans pretty much dominate that scene! (Including the Australians with the Europeans even though it is a bit of a trip for most Europeans it certainly is not as much as for Americans.
Maybe thoughts about a Western Worlds champs should be considered.  I realize that our Nationals does host other countries fliers but it's not exactly the same thing and I belive there may be some stigma attached to a foreign flier winning "our" Nationals!  

It could be an American Internationals (American being North America, to include Canada, and South America to include Mexico and Central America as well as Cuba ( Who knows the way the current political situation is running they may be a State in the not too distant future!  )

Randy Cuberly

[Peter Anglberger]

Randy you may want to look at your globe, it is not significantly further to travel to Perth from the western US where you are, than it is from northern, central or eastern Europe. LA to Sydney is a 12 hour flight, Sydney to Perth around 4.5 hours. Perth to Singapore is around 6.5 hours, Singapore to Berlin or Paris ect is 11 hours. It is also likely to be cheaper for Americans to fly here than Europeans. I think you have grossly underestimated the time and cost Australian WC team members have to commit by lumping us in with the 'Europeans'. Most of them drive their cars to the WCs, so take apart models are not mandatory and transport of batteries and fuel is straightforward. Not so for those of us from the 'antipodies' as I want to be inclusive of NZers who have to go further than anyone else.

[Brett Buck]

As will be the world champs.  Good point.

   That was part of the discussion several of us had with Steve and Samantha during appearance judging this year - these were both significant issues.

    Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

Randy you may want to look at your globe, it is not significantly further to travel to Perth from the western US where you are, than it is from northern, central or eastern Europe. LA to Sydney is a 12 hour flight, Sydney to Perth around 4.5 hours. Perth to Singapore is around 6.5 hours, Singapore to Berlin or Paris ect is 11 hours. It is also likely to be cheaper for Americans to fly here than Europeans. I think you have grossly underestimated the time and cost Australian WC team members have to commit by lumping us in with the 'Europeans'. Most of them drive their cars to the WCs, so take apart models are not mandatory and transport of batteries and fuel is straightforward. Not so for those of us from the 'antipodies' as I want to be inclusive of NZers who have to go further than anyone else.

Peter I agree you have a point.  I probably should not lump Australia with Europe.  For one thing it's a very large continent under basically one umbrella like the US.
My real point is that there are many different countries in a relatively small area in Europe, and they bid for the WC and it's less travel for them to go from one country to another than it is typically for us here in the US to go from California or Arizona to Indiana where Our Nationals are held.  In fact it's about 2500 miles for me from Southern Arizona.

My point is that The US is a large country with a large population (about 330 Million I think) and we should bid more for the WC than we do.
In fact I suppose the same applies to Australia for the same reasons.

Thanks for keeping me honest.  It wasn't my intention to pick on anyone and certainly not Australia.  I would love to visit there someday but alas my wife's health doesn't allow me much time away from home.

Randy Cuberly

[john e. holliday]

Randy,  talk to Bill Lee and then decide if you would like to take it on.  No telling how much was out of Bill's pocket to run the thing in 2004.

[Igor Burger]

Thanks Igor.  This is the third time this group is together. The first two times both netted team gold medals!!   :-))))

 

I wish you will, and I wish myself one day to make Slovak TT ... so far it looks we can hardly find 3 good pilots here between 5mil. Slovak citizens ... so far we have only 2 good and one sometimes helping just to have 3 pilots for team results :- ))

[BillLee]

Randy,  talk to Bill Lee and then decide if you would like to take it on.  No telling how much was out of Bill's pocket to run the thing in 2004.

You don't want to know! In fact I don't want to know! (Only Sandra knows and she won't tell me!)

[Howard Rush]

I wish you will, and I wish myself one day to make Slovak TT ... so far it looks we can hardly find 3 good pilots here between 5mil. Slovak citizens ... so far we have only 2 good and one sometimes helping just to have 3 pilots for team results :- ))

You had a country big enough to have a strong team, but you split so you could have two teams. 

[Igor Burger]

Noone asked F2B flyers :- )))