BRODAK SENIOR CHALLENGE

[Dennis Adamisin]

The Aeromodeling hobby attracts and appeals to enthusiasts at any age, often starting very young and continuing over many decades.  It offers challenges at each stage with many adjusting their interests according to their age and physical acumen.  Last year at the closing of the 2024 Brodak Fly-In, our hostess Buzz Brodak requested a new event; one celebrating our older participants and Legends.  The goal being to recognize and celebrate those who continue to participate well into their golden years and/or those dealing with physical limitations.

This Event is open to older flyers.  It will be mid day Friday of Brodak week:
* Flyers aged 75 & over – entrants WILL be carded! 
* Also open to Flyers of any age with physical limitation(s) that precludes standing and flying vertical or overhead maneuvers.
* Flyers will be allowed to use a pivoting chair or wheel chair if they choose.

This is an aerobatic event, the Flight Pattern is a variation of the AMA Stunt Pattern minus Vertical and Overhead maneuvers and with a few new maneuvers substituted in:
* No vertical or overhead maneuvers
* Normal Level Flight & Maneuver bottoms at 4-6 feet elevation.
* Maneuvers top height at 60° elevation
* No restriction on airplane or power system.
* No BoM, no Appearance Points.

Maneuver Sequence
1. Take-off & Level Flight
2. Top Hat
3. Inside round loops (3, recover to Inverted Flight)
4. Inverted Flight (2 Laps)
5. Outside Round Loops (3) starting from inverted flight and recovering Upright
6. Inside Square Loops (2)
7. Outside Square Loops (2)
8. Inside Triangle Loops (2)
9. Outside Triangle Loops, point DOWN (2)
10. Horizontal Round Eights (2)
11. Horizontal Square Eights (2)
12. Bow Tie (2)
13. Landing
14. Spot Landing Bonus
Flight Pattern Points for complete patterns flown in prescribed manner

Maneuver Descriptions are in the attached file.  Look it over and get practicing, you only have 4 months to get ready!

Seriously, we have no idea how many folks will be willing to take this challenge.  Please practice the pattern and share your thoughts!

[Ken Culbertson]

This is absolutely cool.  I would like to see it at every contest.  It really stretches your competitive lifespan.  When I hit 75 I started losing my balance, especially in the RWO.  As hard as I try it is not getting any better.  This pattern is tough enough to take expert skills yet not eliminating you because of physical limitations you can't do anything about.  I have been doing the outside triangles to unwrap my lines since the 70's and the Bow Tie was my favorite for showing off on a really windy day back when we did stupid things like dead stick wind flying.  I have always joked that Classic should refer to the flier, not the plane.  This is a great idea, we just need enough CD's to include it.

Ken

I do have a question.  The rules seem to allow some "drifting" in the 4-6' judged level flight portions of the pattern.  Was this intended?  Moving the maneuver ceiling to 60 degrees seems to allow us old farts to finally fly "Our" version of 45 degrees.  Some of our dearly departed would have liked that change.

[Perry Rose]

Three things need fixing.
1. I don't see a mid pattern bathroom break.
2. Where is the nap maneuver.
3. Spot landing needs further explanation.
4. What about doing overhead maneuvers for extra points?
5. Start the age at 80. That will keep the young folks from entering.

[Ken Culbertson]

Three things need fixing.
1. I don't see a mid pattern bathroom break. - A vendor table selling diapers is more practical.
2. Where is the nap maneuver. - it is between rounds, the CD should have the responsibility of waking 15 min before being called to the circle.
3. Spot landing needs further explanation.
4. What about doing overhead maneuvers for extra points? - defeats the purpose of the event.
5. Start the age at 80. That will keep the young folks from entering. - That would only give me 2 years to finish a plane.  Not enough time.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Hi Guys

Thanks for comments so far:
Spot landing will be based on stopping the airplane near the point where it was launched.  I'll flesh out that description a little more.

Mid pattern potty break?   Depends....

[Paul Smith]

Just one question, for the sake of discussion:

Would those who claim to be old and disabled and eligible of this event still be allowed to compete in regular able-bodied events as well?
If so, it's just another set of prizes for the same people who fly six Brodak stunt events already.

[Ken Culbertson]

Just one question, for the sake of discussion:

Would those who claim to be old and disabled and eligible of this event still be allowed to compete in regular able-bodied events as well?
If so, it's just another set of prizes for the same people who fly six Brodak stunt events already.

isn't the point of traveling to an out-of-town contest to fly as many flights as possible?  I am over that hill but can still fly a very competitive pattern if I don't have to look up and turn.  With that limitation I am dead meat before I get to the loops.  I would still fly Expert in as many events as I could but this one would give me a chance to actually win.  Now if you could just do something about the sun............

ken

[Steve Helmick]

The "top hat" and "bowtie" need diagrams. Around 1970, I sometimes did bowties (horizontal hourglass) when I was bored with doing undersized square vertical 8's, but never called them bowties. Yup, quite tailheavy.  Steve   

[Dennis Adamisin]

Paul: event is open to any/all who meet the criteria

Steve: Top Hat and Bow tie in the attachment in original post.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

This is a very nice design, well presented.  One thought is that "spot landing" is somewhat athletic, in practice.  Not sure exactly what the launch point marker consists of, but I'll check the pdf you attached.

As Ken points out, the outside triangle is already flown by many of us.  To my opinion, it should be in the standard pattern.  Glad to see it in this design.

Even though I'm still a few years from qualifying, I'll try it out.

Again, nice job.  Thanks,

Peter

[john e. holliday]

Hope you get a few to do this.  I have not flown a plane in over three years.  Have to use a cane now  to keep from bruising the ground(grass and pavement.

[Steve Helmick]

While I don't always use a cane, I have one that I sometimes use, since my (left) knee replacement. Mostly to keep from getting "the stink eye" when I park in a handicapped parking spot...for which I have and use the mirror flag thingy.

The unfortunate thing is that it was my left knee replaced, so the cane is used with my right hand, which is also my flying hand. Before I got training on the use of the cane, I figured it would be used on the bad leg side, but that's not per the geezer handbook. Still doesn't really make a lot of sense, but them's the rules.

I went back and read clear to the bottom of the page and found the pdf...thank you, Dennis. Seems wrong to only require one tophat, though!  Steve

[jfv]

Denny:

Should be a fun event.  I hate to say, though, I more than qualify to compete.  Read the description of the maneuvers and not quite sure if the the 60 degree maneuver top is a maximum height or the specified elevation for the top.  That is, will maneuvers performed with a top below 60 degrees be scored lower because they were too small?

Thanks,

Jim

[Ken Culbertson]

Denny:

Should be a fun event.  I hate to say, though, I more than qualify to compete.  Read the description of the maneuvers and not quite sure if the the 60 degree maneuver top is a maximum height or the specified elevation for the top.  That is, will maneuvers performed with a top below 60 degrees be scored lower because they were too small?

Thanks,

Jim

The way I read it you can do them as small as you want as long as the rest of the maneuver adjusts to your size.  Personally, I don't like 60 degree size maneuvers.

Ken

[dave siegler]

think about the spot landing as the distance past the sport.  so like the STOL competitions do.  If you land just short its a lap of distance.

[Scott Richlen]

We (NVCL) bought a duck blind chair to use since some of our members were having balance issues or mobility challenges.  It can be challenging the first couple of flights, but once mastered, makes flying the pattern quite easy (hard to fall on your butt when you're already sitting down...)

We added a foot rest which improved usability (we had taken these pictures before we added the foot rest.)  It consisted of a piece of bent tubing welded to the frame that you can easily hook your heals over.

[Ken Culbertson]

We (NVCL) bought a duck blind chair to use since some of our members were having balance issues or mobility challenges.

How do you turn the chair?

Ken
 

[Dave Rigotti]

Start the motor or engine on the plane....

How do you turn the chair?

Ken
 

[Scott Richlen]

How do you turn the chair?

Even a Fox 35 will rotate the chair.  You just hold your right hand (holding the handle) slightly to the right of center.  Hold it further to the right to go faster, less to the right to go slower.  Opposite for inverts.  If you're left-handed, your IQ is slightly higher than us right handers and you'll easily figure out how to do this.   

But the timing comes in when you flip the plane inverted and now need to turn the other way.....

[Ken Culbertson]

Even a Fox 35 will rotate the chair.  You just hold your right hand (holding the handle) slightly to the right of center.  Hold it further to the right to go faster, less to the right to go slower.  Opposite for inverts.  If you're left-handed, your IQ is slightly higher than us right handers and you'll easily figure out how to do this.   

But the timing comes in when you flip the plane inverted and now need to turn the other way.....

Must have some really smooth bearings and a stable base.  I will bet the RWO takes some body language, the rest I can see just DON"T HIT YOUR WAKE!

Ken

[Scott Richlen]

I will bet the RWO takes some body language

The chair is very stable and you can adjust the four legs to make it completely level.  You really can't fall out of the chair, plus you can lean way back in it so the whole pattern is doable from the chair.

When we take off we lean way forward which gives us the ability to lean back quickly if we get a bad launch, gust of air, whatever.

Using the chair for the first time is not the time to attempt a pattern because the chair introduces a couple new dimensions that require coordination with your flying: you are orienting your hand through-out the flight to help propel the rotation; it does help to use your foot to stop rotation as you begin any consecutive maneuver; and a light "push-off" with your foot helps get your rotation going once a maneuuver is over or a reversal in rotation direction is needed.

The addition of a "foot rest" is pretty important so you've got a place to rest your feet as you turn, otherwise you have to lift them off the ground for the whole flight or sort of walk them as you turn.  In the attached pictures you can see the foot rest we added to our chair.

The main drawback to using the chair is human pride.  It takes a lot of encouragement in some cases to get people to try the chair out.  Apparently some people feel that using the chair to fly is an admission of weakness or frailty or ...?  So, they'd rather give up flying rather than use the chair and continue to have fun.   

We've had a lot of fun with our chair as it introduces an additional dimension to flying while also giving us the coonfidence that the next time our prescription is changed we can still go flying....

[Ken Culbertson]

Really cool, thanks for the explanation.

Ken

[Scott Richlen]

Really cool, thanks for the explanation.

You're welcome!

Here's a picture of our chair so you can see what to purchase.  We got ours at Bass Pro shop and it is very high quality.  Make sure it is one that has arm rests and actually rotates!  I can only vouch for the brand we got - as usual be cautious of getting one of the cheapy SMIC chairs.  Surprisingly this one was well under $200.

[Dan McEntee]

   We had a club member who has since passed away that just used common office chairs. I don't know if he bought them off Craig's list second hand or what but they revolved very well just by letting the airplane pull him around. He had one chair to sit in while setting up a model in his stooge set up and another that he flew in. The flying chair was on rollers, since we have a big square paved pad to fly on, and he could push back to keep lines tight if needed, and then scoot his way back into center. He didn't doo full patterns but could do inside and outside loops and fly inverted, so as long as you have an airplane that is in some kind of good trim I think he very well could have, or anyone could. I watched him closely on several occasions just to take it all in and log it in my memory for when I may need to do this. The duck blind chair is interesting also , and I don't think I have ever heard the term before but will remember that also. Lots of good way to keep on flying!!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/blackout-comfort-max-360-mag-elite-blind-chair-black

[Dan McEntee]

  Just  thought of something that I have been doing that may help some of you other kids out there! i usually take a Dramamine tablet before heading to the field. For the last several years, I have had just a bit of a problem with over heads and such, just a little unsteadiness while looking up and following the model but then goes away as soo as I pull out into level flight. I had my left knee replaced in May of 2023and when I started back flying after 4 or 5 weeks this helped me get steady on the new knee joint. Either the name brand pills or the drug store generic work well for me. It's 3 degrees here this morning, so no worries about needing any today!!
 Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Scott Richlen]

Wow!  I said well under $200 to purchase one.  The link Peter put up shows they are on sale for $99.  (Thanks Peter!)

So, for the price of a top-of-the-line Fox 35 you can have your very own duck blind chair!

[bob whitney]

will be trying out the old farts pattern tomorrow

[Paul Smith]

I'm not planning to fly this event at this time, although I am old enough and my neck & shoulder get stiff at times.
But if you still fly regular stunt events, would you consider it ethical to also fly handicapped stunt?

[Ken Culbertson]

I'm not planning to fly this event at this time, although I am old enough and my neck & shoulder get stiff at times.
But if you still fly regular stunt events, would you consider it ethical to also fly handicapped stunt?

It is not "Handicap" stunt it is "Senior Stunt" with a provision for handicaps.  I see no problem with seniors also flying the regular events as well.

Ken 

[Scott Richlen]

One thing you should very seriously think about doing is making the use of the chair mandatory.  People can be very prideful (especially older men!) and will not want to use the chair even when they need to.  The elderly do not fall down gracefully when they get dizzy and lose their balance.  It would be a shame to have this new event marred by having to call the ambulance after someone falls and breaks their hip.

[Paul Smith]

One thing you should very seriously think about doing is making the use of the chair mandatory.  People can be very prideful (especially older men!) and will not want to use the chair even when they need to.  The elderly do not fall down gracefully when they get dizzy and lose their balance.  It would be a shame to have this new event marred by having to call the ambulance after someone falls and breaks their hip.

Genius!!  The required swivel chair is an excellent addendum to the new rules.

[Ken Culbertson]

Dennis - you have created a monster!

Ken

[Paul Smith]

The award ceremony will be a hoot if the same guy wins both Expert & Disability Stunt.
The CL version of boys winning girls track & swimming.

[Dave Rigotti]

What class is Disability Stunt?  Thread topic is Senior Challenge......

The award ceremony will be a hoot if the same guy wins both Expert & Disability Stunt.
The CL version of boys winning girls track & swimming.

[Scott Richlen]

I really hope that Dennis can get this launched and "normalized".  We have quite a few people who used to be involved in control line who no longer are because of dizzyness.  Frequently, blood thinners or other medicines can end a control line flying career.  Folks are afraid of the embarrasment of potentially falling in front of their peers, so they withdraw from the hobby.  If this event can become a regular thing, it could extend the participation of many folks who would otherwise drop out.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Hmmm, reply written but lost so trying to repeat.  Apologies if this somehow turns into a double pit.

Pretty sure this is not “perfect” the first try, but we gotta start somewhere.  It’s a good start that we can build on.  Went to dinner with Mark Gerber tonight, Mark drew all the maneuver diagrams.

Honestly do not know HOW the event will play out at Brodak but we will adjust as needed.

Seeing and hearing a lot of interest from other youngsters who do not fit the profile of the Brodak event entries.  Based on a side bar discussion with Dave R, I’m planning on a demo/event for my “Rustbuster” meet Memorial Day weekend.

KUDOS to Scott Richlen & crew for their work with the Duck Blind chair.  That could be a HUGE enabler for many flyers with mobility & vertigo issues. 

[Ken Culbertson]

I really hope that Dennis can get this launched and "normalized".  We have quite a few people who used to be involved in control line who no longer are because of dizzyness.  Frequently, blood thinners or other medicines can end a control line flying career.  Folks are afraid of the embarrasment of potentially falling in front of their peers, so they withdraw from the hobby.  If this event can become a regular thing, it could extend the participation of many folks who would otherwise drop out.

Yippie!

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Please consider the following request to modify the rules.

For Seniors facing mobility challenges who are launching, getting out of the way before the plane comes around at 4 to 6 feet can be difficult.  In order for the event to be inclusive of both senior pilots and their launchers, consider eliminating or adjusting the takeoff aspect of the pattern.

Please advise if further discussion is required to describe the safety risk associated with seniors launching for pilots that are obligated to pass by the launch point at four to six feet.

thanks,

Peter

[Ken Culbertson]

Please consider the following request to modify the rules.

For Seniors facing mobility challenges who are launching, getting out of the way before the plane comes around at 4 to 6 feet can be difficult.  In order for the event to be inclusive of both senior pilots and their launchers, consider eliminating or adjusting the takeoff aspect of the pattern.

Please advise if further discussion is required to describe the safety risk associated with seniors launching for pilots that are obligated to pass by the launch point at four to six feet.

thanks,

Peter

[Dennis Adamisin]

Please consider the following request to modify the rules.

For Seniors facing mobility challenges who are launching, getting out of the way before the plane comes around at 4 to 6 feet can be difficult.  In order for the event to be inclusive of both senior pilots and their launchers, consider eliminating or adjusting the takeoff aspect of the pattern.

Please advise if further discussion is required to describe the safety risk associated with seniors launching for pilots that are obligated to pass by the launch point at four to six feet.

thanks,

Peter

Peter:

Really nothing to discuss:

Just like any other CL activity, this event does not require nor expect that the launchers have compromised mobility; they do not even have to be seniors.  This should be self-evident: a fundamental expectation, for EVERY control line flight EVER flown, is that the launcher must clear the flight path of the model after launching.  That remains the same for this event.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Dennis,

> This should be self-evident: a fundamental expectation, for EVERY control line flight EVER flown, is that the launcher must clear the flight path of the model after launching.

That statement is puzzling.  Doesn't seem true.  In my observation, either the pilot maneuvers the plane to avoid the launcher, or the launcher avoids the plane.  Or, both. 

Are you thinking your response through? Attached is a photo of a launcher that is not mobile.  It's not typically cleared from the scene, but remains fixed during the flight.  There are a lot of launching methods in control line:  picnic table, hand launch, ground level stooge, etc.  The sport has a wide variety of practices and a rich history. 

My goal in writing you is to help create a safe and inclusive event for the target cohort.  I think there is still a way to go.

Peter

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

And let's talk about recent wrecks at the Brodak's contest where stunt planes in flight struck objects.  Not sure you saw the wrecks, but I know I witnessed them.

The field is a challenge.  It has some different slopes to it.  The centers are typically marked with paint.  Metal poles are driven into the ground at a measured distance from the center adequate for pilots that are able to find the paint marks and have lines within contest specs.

The wrecks into the poles happened when pilots "wandered," meaning they were not at the specified center.  To be at the center, the pilot either needs to start/remain there, or find their way there.  Typically, this involves looking for the marks visually, taking some attention away from the demands of getting a good score.

A safer alternative, especially at the start of the flight, is to immediately climb to an altitude that is adequate to avoid people and poles, making sure any person launching didn't stumble or get distracted, then making sure to take the time to focus on finding the circle's center.  Once happy the circle is 100% safe for 4-6 foot flying, the rest of the flight commences.  This style of flying is less demanding and suitable for a variety of flyers, especially seniors and sport flyers in crowded urban settings.  Many combat fliers fly this way on their first lap.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Another concern I have is there seems to be an effort here to separate the senior pilot from the rest of their cohort.  My experience is that many pilots fly in club settings, where the person who routinely launches may be less mobile than the pilot, but still enjoying the sport and contributing significantly to the effort of producing a competition flight. 

I can distinctly recall judging a local contest where an older pilot showed up at the flight line with an even older and less mobile person launching.  The result was more concerning and dramatic than a more relaxed set of rules would have created.  There really is an opportunity here to design an inclusive event with respect to establishing a safe flight path for the senior pilot.

What is the goal in excluding launchers who have limited mobility?  Wouldn't it be more fun for all involved to make the event inclusive in that respect?  What's the goal of the organizers and sponsors?

Perhaps it's my years flying combat that leads me to desiring this adjustment.  I always flew high and kept an eye on the pit crews on launch, as I'd heard stories of skull strikes.  It's 2025, and they even mandate helmets these days.

[bob whitney]

first let me say that i was a judging at Brodaks when the two crashs happened .they DIDNT wonder from the center .they didnt realize the centers had been moved and were flying from the wrong center.both were expert class flyers and were flying from where hey though they should be flying.it was brought up in the pilots meeting about the moved centers
 most pilots i know automatically back up a at least a few feet on take off. our takeoff pad i at least 70 feet from the flying pad pad .my launcher and i both have trouble getting up from our knees so have learned to launch from a bent over position and be out of the way after launch.
  the one problem will be if using a chair as we will be flying right over the take off spot

  i THINK we are way over THINKING this thing.  RAD

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Bob,

Not only experts wrecked into the poles, but at least one intermediate, as well.  My recall is the intermediate person was aware of where the center had been marked.  Consistent with the spirit of the Brodak's event, that particular builder worked well into the night in John's shop, rebuilding the outboard wing panel.

Yes, getting up from kneeling quickly is a challenge for many seniors.  Removing some of the stress by letting the pilot, especially if seated, fly high for the first lap or so seems like a simple safeguard.

Peter

[Skip Chernoff]

Dennis I feel this event will be a lot of fun and  am looking forward to entering it at this year's Brodak meet.  Back in February of 2023 I was paralyzed from the waist down due to a surgical mishap during a discectomy in my neck. The disc at level 5/6 broke off during the operation set up and  was compressing my spinal cord causing this paralysis. A spinal specialist removed the disc and installed a fusion device. BUT I was still paralyzed! It took months of acute physical and occupational therapy for me to be able to walk again and do the normal things that we don't think about. I am thrilled to report that I am 100 % recovered at present AND back flying my C/L stunt ships with regularity and enthusiasm..So to all of the usual suspects that I flew against .....watch out "Showtime" is back!  Cheers, Philly Skip