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Author Topic: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force  (Read 9210 times)

Offline Shawn Kuntz

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Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« on: January 11, 2007, 02:48:41 PM »
Which one of these two ARF stunt ships are better for a newer CL pilot?  Which off the shelf engine would be best suited for one of these...such as Brodak, Supre Tiger, OS, Fox, etc.?
Shawn Kuntz
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Offline Jerry Eichten

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2007, 03:00:37 PM »
My son's Primary Force flies great with an OS 25fp, although its scratch built, not the ARF.  My Cardinal ARF has a 40fp.  If I was shopping today I'd choose the OS 46LA.


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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2007, 04:16:57 PM »
I have watched John Bender refine his ARF Cardinal from day one when he swore it was a peice of trash.  It is now one of the planes his flies regularly.  I have watched Howard Terrell flying his new ARF Primary Force.  He has the recommended engine, whatever that is.  I don't remember which one it is.  They are both great flying planes for ARF Profile Airplanes.  They are great to get into the air quick and practice the pattern.  I suggest you go with the one you like the looks of best and power it accordingly.  Myself I am still flying the short kit Primary Force now powered with LA 25.  Later,  DOC Holliday
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2007, 05:03:43 PM »
Hi Shawn,

They both can be great flying ships.  The Primary Force will be smaller, use a smaller engine and be more economical to get in a lot of flights due to less fuel used!  ;D

The PF is a *little* less complicated (no flaps) and maybe a touch better for the raw beginner.

Having said that, there is nothing at all wrong with the Cardinal, I have seen a lot of them fly real good.
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Offline peabody

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2007, 07:27:24 PM »
If you are truly into learning to fly stunt, either is a good choice....
The thing that I believe should govern your choice is: What are area flyers using? If there are lots of Primary Forces and few Cardinals, then order up a PR with Brodak .25 (an LA .25 will work, but is a little aggressive). If the gang at the field has a bunch of Cardinals, then order one of those....and the LA .46 is a good partner....
I believe the best flying ARF/ARC, needing the least modifications (although the PF is a  close second) is the Pathfinder....terrific pieces...best flown with an LA .46....

Offline Jim Oliver

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2007, 08:24:31 PM »
I don't own a Primary Force, but the few I have seen seem to have vibration prone noses.  They do seem to fly fine, however.

Jim
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2007, 08:21:23 AM »
If the nose vibrates, it was not done right.  Unless of course it has a Fox 35 Stunt that was not broken in properly.  The other thing is out of balance props.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Jim Oliver

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2007, 03:42:26 PM »
In this case, I think the "It was not done right"  belongs to Sig.

Jim
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Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 05:34:44 PM »
You haven't shared with us how far along you are in the process. In my opinion bigger almost always is better... to a point and usually easier to fly. If you've reached the point where you can get the plane up and down and do a few tricks then I would say the Cardinal with an .46LA and leave it a wee bit nose heavy. If you see a bunch of crashes in your future then go with the smaller plane. They are less likely to be totaled in a crash.

The Cardinal is one of the best profile planes I've flown.

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Offline Ken Deboy

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2007, 08:26:00 PM »
I have both, but only the Primary Force is flying. As someone else pointed out, the Primary Force is simpler than the Cardinal, so it will be faster to repair or replace if you crash, also simpler to trim with no flaps. IMO, it takes less rework to be flight ready than the Cardinal. Mine is powered with an OS Max 35-S but I'm probably going to switch to a Brodak 40. An LA-25 flies a Skyray good but the PF is a lot bigger and I fly at about 5000', maybe closer to sea level I'd feel comfortable with a 25 on it... One thing you might consider if you go with the PF is to get a kit from Mike Pratt instead of the ARF from Sig.
My indirect experience with the Cardinal is that it needs the bellcrank mounting replaced before it is safe to fly, so that's what I'm doing to mine (why it isn't done yet). If you go with the Cardinal, IMO better to go with the ARC instead of ARF - saves a couple bucks and easier to do the mods if you don't have to strip the covering first Good engine for the Cardinal is an LA 46.

cheers,
Ken
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Offline Steve Holt

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2007, 05:36:54 PM »
I have read several comments about the Primary Force having "vibration" problems.  I have over a hundred flights on mine and have never experienced this.  I usually fly mine with an OS25FSR and a 10X4 APC prop.  I have also flown it with a Thunder Tiger 36 and a 10.5X4.5 APC and had no vibration issues with either engine.  I do balance all my props and have thrown away a couple of props with the hole off center, but any vibration issues with the PF are not an inherent Sig problem.  Relative to the Cardinal, I think the PF is inherently simpler for a beginner and requires fewer mods from the as shipped configuration to be OK.
Steve

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2007, 09:35:57 PM »
As of last night, I now have both. Just finishing an ARF Cardinal, that I wouldn't work on for two years. Preferring to fly lesser birds built from kits or scratch. The Primary Force was given to me by a club member fed up with my resistance to flying an actual stunt ship. (He didn't think much of my Twister.) The Primary Force flies great. Now for the experience of an ARF Cardinal with an la la 46. Everyone in my club so far uses the stock controls. Lots of them about. No faillures yet. I did the controls stock, didn't want to bother ripping the crank out of the covered STRAIGHT wing. Pull tests awright. Little drag in the setup. The fat flaps rest in a downward droop. So. Soon as the weather breaks...

Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2007, 06:52:39 AM »
Dennis, I have a question. Is the pushrod from the bellcrank to flaps the correct length?

The reason I ask is that the rod was too long on my Cardinal ARF and the controls were not symetrical around neutral. The long rod had the bellcrank rotated about 8 - 10 deg when the flaps were at neutral. Didn't like the way it flew in level flight.

I chopped the rod and installed a ball link... works better and gives me some adjustment.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2007, 08:59:24 AM »
I reinforced the mounting points for the flap and stabilizer control horns. Cutting off the covering, using epoxied 1/32" ply top and bottom over the wires stuck into the flaps and elevator. The geometry of my Cardinal wound up with the flaps orientated slightly up when the horn is vertical. To compensate I bent both flaps down. The reinforcements I made, allowed me to do this, no problem. When the flaps are horizontal the horn is canted slightly forward, which is actually a plus I believe, creating a better geometric relationship with the bellcrank. Not an ideal setup but o.k. (It's an ARF!) Tom Morris control horns work something like this. The dogleg in his horn also compensates for the slight discrepency in elevator movement/flap movement. Canting the control horn forward slightly improves the up down equalization of the flap movement. Without the dogleg in the Tom Morris system the discrepency in movement rate for the elevator is still built in. Nothing new about that. The majority of our stunt planes are like that. If the pushrod was too long I would have done something like you did. I always prefer adjustable controls and put them in kit built and scratch built planes. But this is an ARF so in this instance I took the easier way. Of course it's possible to make some corrections at the handle.

A further note on the controls-- it seems to me that the wire in the control horns is softer than our grade of music wire. May turn out to be too maleable, creating other kinds of control weirdness. Since no one in my club mentioned this. I let it go. Easy enough to stick in $15 dollars worth of good quality control horns though. Don't have to open up the wing for that. I'll leave this for my next ARF, if it turns out to be an issue.

If this Cardinal flies real well. I would consider opening things up next time and doing the controls right. Even going to an ARC. Certainly less work than doing a kit. The fuse construction intrigues me. Lots of hole cutouts under the covering back of the wing. Bobby Z (Bob Zambelli) who did much of the final engineering work to ARF the Cardinal, mentioned something about ply in the fuse, and the need for cutouts to avoid a tail heavy condition. The rear of the Cardinal is quite rigid for a profile. The engineering here might be spot on and not talked about enough. Flexi-flyer profiles, especially in profile stunt planes, happen. The longer tail moment aggravate this condition. Larry Cunningham's Mo-Best article on the PAMPA website discusses the use of 1/64" ply over a cutout/strut construction. This to aid rigidity. When building my scratch built planes I use fairly hard balsa for the fuse and cover with silkspan. The old fashioned way. Just ordered some carbon mat and will use on my kit built Primary Force. Bob Zambelli probably used a variation of the Larry Cunningham technique for the ARF and ARC Cardinal.

For around $100 we're getting a heck of bargain, anyway you look at it. Obviously the planes can be adjusted with this and that to fly extremely well. In Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced, ARFs dominate. At least in contests I flew in last year. My homebuilt planes were fun, but did not fly as well as the best of the ARFs. Mostly this was a function of the designs I chose to build and fly. They were more sport plane than serious stunt plane. The new projects on my board will be a mix of traditional stunt ships and home designs intended for competition. Since I will fly Intermediate next year, what the heck.

Building a kit or from scratch allows the use of better materials, upgrade in controls, improved covering, epoxy, more carefully selected bawsa. I really didn't like the look of the wood, for instance, used in the motor mounts of the ARF Cardinal. Didn't look like rock maple. (Maybe it was.)  Also, I don't know what kind of glues were used, didn't see any evidence of epoxy. Don't know about the grade of the ply reinforcements. On the other hand the all up weight of my ARF came out at 44 1/2 ounces with the LA 46, tank, ready to go. Not bad at all for bird this size.





Offline Ken Deboy

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2007, 06:14:51 PM »
Dennis,
My Cardinal is the ARC and the fuselage is laminated on the outside with thin plywood. As you note it is very stiff, much more than the solid balsa profiles I've built. The big plus for me is that whoever put it together did a way better job of shaping the fuselage tripler, nose ring, and wing tips than I could ever hope to. I think you're right about the engine beams not being maple, but LA 46s run so smooth that it's not a worry:) I like the ARC better than the ARF but glad there is a choice. I wish Sig would offer the Primary Force as an ARC, or at least in some other colors besides day glow orange.

cheers,
Ken
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Brodak Cardinal vs. Sig's Primary Force
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2007, 06:47:55 PM »
Hey Ken,

Humbling isn't how well these ARFs are crafted. Looking at the curve on the sheeting, the rib placement, fuse shape etc. and the wing on my Cardinal is straight. Hard for a duffer to do that well. Which is another reason I think ARFs are a step up for many (most?) of us, despite compromises in glue, covering materials and controls. At Brodak it was evident to me that less experienced flyers and builders gave me a hard run because their aircraft were superior to my kit built (bashed) Twister and Galaxy. Man, an ARF Smoothie can look real good doing loops, eights and squares, with a purring B40.

Thanks for the feedback about the Cardinal ARF/ARC construction. I'm going to actually ask Bob about the engineering he did, next time I see him. Up until now I've been stubborn about resisting the entire ARF process. Alas I'm growing fond of the big Red and Black Bird in my living room. Hope to get a shakedown flight tomorrow, if the weather cooperates at all.

Warning: bending the flaps down to compensate for a short flap pushrod creates PROBLEMS. I didn't realise that the bellcrank is now cocked. Although the flaps and elevator line up at neutral, my controls are biased giving more up than down elevator. Tonight I'll resolder the elevator/flap pushrod, building in some down bias. The heavy thinkers on the other forum have stated that a downward elevator bias can help tracking. If this doesn't work, I'll get in there re-twist the flaphorn,  and splice in an adjustable pushrod. Nothing like doing it right.


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